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Randomizers

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AlexanderVanhulsel
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Joined: 06/04/2015

Hi fellow designers!

I have been quite inactive the last 2 years on this forum, but now I finally have time to design games again!

I am currently creating a game called "Angry Gods" (although the title could still change), which is a fast-paced card game with a (I hope) pretty unique mechanism. I'll probably post it here one day if people would like to test it and give some feedback ;)

At the moment I have a question for you guys. In the game players can gain cards to 'persuade' the gods to attack the players. This happens every once in a while at fixed points in the game. It can occur though, that there are no god cards to be played, or that a player wishes not to play them. In that case, cards should be drawn from a deck of cards until a god card is revealed (and then that god will attack).
Unfortunately, quite some of the god cards are 'wild cards' containing 3 gods, but only one god can attack each turn.
In that case: is it ok to let the players use their own randomizer (coin flip, dice roll, etc.) to determine which god will atttack, or will it bogg down the game and should the game provide a solution for this itself?

And in general; are coin flips etc. in a game appropriate?

Thanks in advance!
Alexander Vanhulsel

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Too many tiny rules...

Sounds to me like your game "may" (I say "may" not "has") have too many tiny exceptions to rules. I would re-shape the game to be something more STRATEGIC. Hear me out... comment after.


At the start of EACH "Round" a God-Card is randomly chosen from the TOP of the God-Card deck. What this does is "set-up" players and effectively determines what "Angry God" will attack after the "Round" (However long).

But Players can SWAP out that God if they have a God they would prefer to battle. So there is an element of strategy in determining which "Angry God" it will be for that "Round".


Okay I don't know why you would have "3" Gods on ONE (1) card... Using my method (explained above) you might probably not need "Godly-Wildcards".

Given the OPTION of REPLACING the "Angry God" with another, I don't really see the need for "wildcards". And because AT THE START of the "Round" the "Angry God" is chosen for all to SEE and decide IF they want to replace him/her whenever more strategic for a specific player, etc.

Just my thoughts on your OP. Cheers!

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
It also ...

Sets up a "Player-specific" advantages. Like say in a three (3) Player game, "God A" is chosen... And nobody wants to battle against him/her. So then Player #1 plays "God B" to his particular advantage... Player #2 and #3 have the option of playing yet another "God" card such that it may be more advantageous for them...

So it sets up some competitiveness between the players too.

A small layer of strategy... But never the less, a layer.

Cheers!

AlexanderVanhulsel
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Some more details needed about the mechanics

Thanks a lot for your thoughts Questccg! (this is why I love this forum so much!)

I think by trying to be brief on the rules, I might not have explained the god card mechanic properly, since I feel it is already quite strategic (and sometimes difficult to wrap your head around). Still, what you say is interesting and next playtest I will definitely test the idea. So to bring more clarity, here is some more detail about how the game plays.

Players take turns choosing cards from the 'offer' (or the 'market', if you will), which will be face-up, so there is no hidden information there. When each player has chosen 4 cards, the next phase will start (the god phase, in which a god will attack). The cards in the offer can have 2 types. It will either be a god card of a specific type (water god, fire god or earth god), or it will be a defence card which allows players to build up enough strength to defend against the attacks.

What happens in the god phase? Player hold all the god cards they have taken from the offer in the previous phase (most often 0, 1 or 2 cards), and decide upon which god they could succesfully defend against (and their opponents cannot). They must discard the god cards they don't want to fight, and put the god cards they DO want to fight in a 'fighting pile'. That pile will be shuffled and one god card is selected at random (if it contains more than 1 card, that is), which playtesters said to be a moment of great tension. That one god will attack all the players.

So where is the strategy? Well, since the gods' strength will ramp up each turn, there is an ever-present pressure to build up defences. Players have to choose between taking a much-needed defence card from the offer, hoping to have enough strength for the attack, or taking a god card to put pressure on the other players. Because with a god card, you can determine whether that god will attack (by putting it in the fighting pile) or won't attack (by discarding it instead). You are in 'control' of that god, so to speak, which is advantageous in 2 ways. For example when holding a fire god: First, if you see you didn't manage to get enough fire defence, you can just discard the fire god so it will not attack. Second, when you hold the fire god, it means YOU make the choice to keep it or discard it, and the other players cannot use that as a means of pressure against you (which boils down to: all the other players DO need to have enough fire defence, because of fear of you playing it in the god phase).
Basically: the choice is to either have more control over the game by picking a god, or to make sure to build enough defences to defend against all the potential gods players could throw at you.

Does this all make any sense?

AlexanderVanhulsel
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If I try to include your ideas in all of this...

First of all: why does a 'wild god card' with 3 gods exist? Well, if you take that card, you can CHOOSE which god will attack. Which is insanely powerful, because by taking that card, you force other players to have enough defence strength on áll fronts (water, fire, ánd earth) because you choose which of the three gods will attack. (or if you're smart, you try to mimic the defence of the player holding the 'wild' card and see which element he/she will most likely choose (e.g.: of the player holding the wild card does not have enough fire, he will not choose the fire attack)).

"But Players can SWAP out that God if they have a God they would prefer to battle. So there is an element of strategy in determining which "Angry God" it will be for that "Round"."
This swapping-out idea would not really fit the game I think, because if you immediately on taking a god card choose whether it will become the attacking god or not, you lose your leverage on the other players. So I prefer selecting the gods AFTER the phase where you take cards from the offer.

What I find very interesting about your idea: maybe it is a good idea to 'set-up' a god card before the offer phase, which will attack if no other god cards are played after. In the current version, if no god card was selected (everyone discarded their gods, or there were no gods in the offer), a random god card would be drawn from the deck. If you 'set-up' a god before the offer phase, players know which god will attack if no others would make it to the fighting pile. This could result in players not wanting to fight the 'set-up' god and so anxiously trying to gain other god cards... or players knowing they can handle the 'set-up' god anyway being too relaxed, going for lots of points... But only playtesting can figure that one out I think :)

Thanks again for the advise! More comments are always welcome :)

FrankM
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Joined: 01/27/2017
Wildcards

Sounds interesting so far!

As for how to deal with the wildcards, have three different versions of them that differ in the order the gods are listed. If a wildcard is picked as the random or set-up god, it counts as the first god listed. No need for a second randomizer.

Fri
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Joined: 09/06/2017
Possible method for choosing a god on a wild card.

A possible way to determine what god on a three god track is to establish an offering track for the gods. This offering track would like a score track for the gods. The two gods with the highest offerings would accept/take their offering. This would set their offerings back to zero. The other god would, well become an angry God and attack. There would have to be a way to mitigate ties. You also have to provide ways change the position of the gods on the offering track. These could be printed on the card like gods and defense. And/or players could discard cards to have a god of their choice go up on its offering track.

If you really like this offering idea you could expand to a god card won't attack so long as they get an offering of x amount or maybe x + round number.

You could also consider having the cards have multiple uses (like can be played as god or defense) to keep players wondering how it will be played.

Enveroth
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Joined: 11/19/2017
another possible randomizer for your "wild god" card

Does the offer stay there for all to see through all the rounds? (like ascension or similar deck builders) If so, you could have the offer area be a part of the strategy and a randomizer.

What I mean is, say all the cards (say 5) are out there for the offer before the round of picking cards. When a player picks up card #1 in the offer, another is drawn for the card #1 spot.

The wild god can be chosen based on the element cards still in the offer. (least element, or most element... maybe they're angry because you took their offerings, or because you didn't pick their element haha)

Example with least element attacks:

Wild god is turned over at the beginning of the turn.

Offer shows: fire, fire, water, earth, earth.

Player A doesn't have good water defense, but they have good fire and earth, so they pick a fire card. A new card is drawn for that spot. Its a water card.

Offer shows: fire, water, water, earth, earth.

Player B can pick up that new water card to try and thwart Player A's plans or can choose one of the others. Player B chooses the new water card, but another water card replaces it.

Offer shows: fire, water, water, earth, earth.

The fire god is angry and attacks.

AlexanderVanhulsel
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Joined: 06/04/2015
FrankM wrote:Sounds

FrankM wrote:
Sounds interesting so far!

As for how to deal with the wildcards, have three different versions of them that differ in the order the gods are listed. If a wildcard is picked as the random or set-up god, it counts as the first god listed. No need for a second randomizer.


Thanks, I'm excited too :p Thank you so much for the suggestion! Wow. It's so simple that I can't believe I haven't thought of it myself! Thanks again!
Some other aspect of the game might need a randomizer as well, so I will use a similar method to solve that problem too

CanucKnight
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Joined: 09/29/2017
I agree that making

I agree that making additional rules/randomizers for edge cases isnt worthwhile. I like FrankM's gods listing idea a lot.

Another option is to simply to burn wild cards (like the wildcards in ticket to ride). Seeing them come up and get burned might be strategic information depending on their frequency in the deck.

Whatever increases players decision making. Best of luck.

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