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Champions: What can they do???

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questccg
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So let me give you a "basic view" of my current game "Monster Keep".

  • Each player has a Lord, players must each have a different Lord. Lords are chosen at random at the start of the game from a pile of ten (10) cards (ergo there are 10 Lords).

  • The objective is to COLLECT 20 Victory Points (VPs) or have the most points after five (5) rounds.

  • At the start of each round, one (1) player rolls (ROLL phase) three (3) White (3d6) and one (1) Black (1d6).

  • Next each player draws (DRAW phase) five (5) cards from the ten (10) card "Champion" Micro Deck. These are custom decks (CCG).

  • Then players CHOOSE Food, Battle and Treasure "resources" based on those dice and whatever combination they prefer. Each player additionally chooses three (3) out of five (5) "Champions" and puts them in play (but hidden). The other two (2) Champions are returned to each player's "Champion" Micro Deck.

  • The next step is players alternate BUYING from nine (9) Factions, each vying for control of the Keep. Using your "resources" (Food, Battle and Treasure), player purchase "followers" for their "Champion's" army.

  • After the buy phase comes the "much anticipated" BATTLE phase. So let me stop HERE... Because this is where I need some input.

Now when players are buying (in the BUYING phase), they buy one (1) or several "followers" from that Faction. Each follower corresponds to one (1) colored cube (matching the Faction). So Red is Fire and it is the Orc Clan, or Blue is Order and it is the Humans, etc.

Each player places the cubes they bought into a pouch for their "followers". During the BATTLE phase, players randomly DRAW from their pouch and determined the winner thanks to an RPS-9 which shows which Faction has won that battle. If BOTH lose, they both get discarded. If ONE (1) wins, the other gets discarded, etc.

It's pretty simple, each player DRAWS and then they compare (against the RPS-9). Fundamentally it's as SIMPLE as this. But strategy-wise it's pretty INTENSE. In essence it's all about odds & probabilities - but LUCK of the draw is a random factor too...

All that explanation, to get to the subject of this topic: "CHAMPIONS".


See I have this "convoluted" IDEA that for example a "Red Dragon" part of the Orc Clan attacks with SIX (6) followers. And if he combats a Human "Fighter" that attacks with TWO (2) followers, that means the Dragon gets FOUR (4) FREE attacks.

So the first two attacks are defended by the "Fighter's" followers - but since he is not strong enough to COMMAND a "larger" ARMY, the Dragon gets to KILL FOUR (4) additional units/cubes from his opponent's pouch.

My question is this:

Aside from commanding a LARGER "Army" what purpose could the "Champions" serve???

I know this is SUPER-broad question... I feel the best way to answer this is with questions/feedback and see what might be the possibilities.

While I know I have done a GOOD job of describing the Game and How it plays. I'm not sure that such a vague question can be answered without discussing other ideas or questions regarding "Champions"...

So feel free to Comment/Question/Suggest things that are relevant to the topic.

MAR
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Champions

Quest,

First of all, I only had a minute to quickly read through this- I will read it again later when I have more time to think. However, my initial thoughts based on your description is that I like the concept and idea. in fact, I might play around with it myself. Anyways, a question that I have is that are all these "Lords" vying for the same keep? I guess it;s not really that important, but just a thought. To answer your primary question, Champions could have certain powers (do you buy champions?) or could work better with certain armies or Lords? I would need to know more about how the game works maybe. I am glad to think about this more and am glad to help, but I will need to come back to this later, maybe tomorrow.

Good luck, hope more people comment and give input :)

-MAR

questccg
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To answer your questions...

MAR wrote:
Anyways, a question that I have is that are all these "Lords" vying for the same keep?

Yes all Lords are vying to become "Lord of The Keep". Ergo the name: "Monster Keep".

MAR wrote:
To answer your primary question, Champions could have certain powers (do you buy champions?) or could work better with certain armies or Lords? I would need to know more about how the game works maybe. I am glad to think about this more and am glad to help, but I will need to come back to this later, maybe tomorrow.

So my thoughts were that the "Champions" would be a ten (10) card Micro Deck where players draw five (5) cards and then pick THREE (3) to command their armies.

The GOAL of this "Micro Deck" is to INJECT the game with a CCG (Collectible Card Game), so players could buy cards in an After-market scene much like Magic... Without boosters ONLY After-market card purchasing.

MAR wrote:
Good luck, hope more people comment and give input :)

Many thanks.

Fri
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Champions could do these things:

Champions could provide victory points when played.*

Champions could provide victory points when a certain the player attacks certain classes.*

Champions could provide victory points to the controlling player when be attacked by certain classes.*

Champions could provide victory points if they are not eliminated by the end of the round.*

Assuming you are still using your equation to determine initiative you could add optional or not optional constant to the equation. Otherwise they could help determine initiative in an alternative scheme.

Champions could have the ability to store defeated follower cubes on them to be placed back in the bag at the end of the round. (Not sure how to make this work thematically maybe medical tent)

Champions could come with unpurchased followers.

Some champions could provide bonuses to other champions like increase command number or victory points.

If the champions could could stay in play until after the next buy phase you open up resource dice manipulation, discounted follower purchases and incentivized follower purchases*.

No big deal just wondering why are there 9 classes and 10 Lords?

*may require a goal with more victory points

The Odd Fox
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Champions could mitigate luck somehow

Since drawing cubes out of the bag is about probability and luck I wonder if champions could somehow mitigate how much luck is involved. I'm not sure how that would happen per se but I'd like to have a few choices when luck is involved.

let-off studios
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Refine Picks

The Odd Fox wrote:
Since drawing cubes out of the bag is about probability and luck I wonder if champions could somehow mitigate how much luck is involved. I'm not sure how that would happen per se but I'd like to have a few choices when luck is involved.
The classic, "Draw three, pick two, discard one" would be a nice way to do this. It could be labeled as a Scout or Recruit ability, for example.

questccg
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To answer your question...

Fri wrote:
No big deal just wondering why are there 9 factions and 10 Lords?

For two (2) reasons:

  1. The keep is circular and nine (9) "Factions" make up a cubic area. Adding one (1) more would make the shape be inconsistent by one (1) Faction.

  2. The Lords give a +3 "resource" bonus. There are ten (10) distinct outcomes for varying "+3".

Examples are: +3/0/0, 0/+3/+0, 0/0/+3, +1/+1/+1, +2/+1/0, etc.

I could have nine (9) Lords too... By removing the "+1/+1/+1" ... Is that better??? Or is ten (10) perfectly acceptable, now that you know the reason behind having ten Lords?

It's not like the Lords control any specific "Faction" either. The "Champions" may be of a specific "Faction"... But not the Lords (at least not currently).

MAR
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Champions

I like some of these suggestions, it gives a lot to think about. Perhaps champions could have a mission associated with it? And if the mission is complete then you gain certain victory points? Are Champions temporary or permanent? Maybe due to their awesomeness, they can be one time use? Maybe like a mercenary or something, once used they are up for grabs again? A champion power idea is that maybe they can have a chance of "saving" a fallen army die from death. Perhaps a power could be changing die colors, amounts, or some kind of trading component. Maybe champions can only be purchased with victory points (a sacrifice/risk for a better army or move?)

-MAR

Fri
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Thanks/Additional Idea about lords

Thank you satisfying my curiosity. Your reasoning for having 10 lords is very good. Since your game is centralized around the RPS9 concept, IMO it would cool to have as many things in the game with a count of 9 as possible. Admittedly, I cannot authoritatively determine what the best number of lords to include. I have tried to help you by offering my opinion.

I hope you found my other comments useful.

Totally disregarding my own idea about having 9 lords, Maybe you can have a lord that only get 2 resources, but they are wild and can boost the production of any resource.

@MAR good idea about VP for completing a mission.

MAR
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Champions

Fri thanks. I like your idea of the wild card themed lord, kind of a fringe character. Perhaps he could get better deals on some components in the game, or he could have access to more components.

questccg
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I agree with you!

The Odd Fox wrote:
Since drawing cubes out of the bag is about probability and luck I wonder if champions could somehow mitigate how much luck is involved. I'm not sure how that would happen per se but I'd like to have a few choices when luck is involved.

Yes this is exactly what I have been thinking about. Instead of relying on a RPS-9 to "predict winners/losers", EACH "Champion" would have all NINE (9) Factions on the card itself, giving a POWER value between 0 and 12.

My thoughts are when a cube is drawn from its pouch, it matches to the corresponding power and then compared against its opponent's power. If they are the SAME, a tie and nobody dies. If one is higher than the other, the winner is the unit with the higher power.

IF the power is +6 higher (like 6:0, 7:1, 8:2, 9:3, 10:4, 11:5, 12:6), that unit kills TWO (2) opposing units (next one chosen at random from the opponent's pouch).

No more RPS-9, each "Champion" dictates the "Rules of Engagement". And each race/faction can be different in terms how it interacts with the opposing races.

This to me sounds like a VAST improvement and "Champions" will effectively mimic the faction in terms of "behavior" or "modus operandi" (M.O.) So when you buy followers of a particular race (or faction), their behaviors can be similar to their "Champion's" M.O...

This breaks away from PURE LUCK (even IF it was odd-based) and into a more strategic way of allowing each "Champion" to be his own "character"...

Does this all make better sense???

questccg
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Very interesting!

questccg wrote:
...This to me sounds like a VAST improvement and "Champions" will effectively mimic the faction in terms of "behavior" or "modus operandi" (M.O.)...

For example:

Order Human Fighter

Because of his code of Honor, his POWER to attack another Human would be LOW. Like 0 or 1.

Fire Orc Brawler

Because Orcs by nature are very treacherous, his POWER to attack another Orc would be AVERAGE. Like 3 or 4.

This way each race and Champion can have their OWN "characters" and affect how their "army/party" does battle with its opponent.

But TWO (2) Order Human Fighters would have the SAME POWER and would therefore allow both Human followers to survive. So the SAME "Champion" against himself (or identical class and race) would be a TIE and both followers would survive...

Getting more and more interesting...!

FrankM
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9x9?

Are you envisioning a 9x9 matrix on each Champion card? That's the only way I can see taking the friendly cube and the target cube factions into account.

What happens when the players disagree on the pairing of cubes? Or is it always that the attacker gets to choose?

questccg
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Some clarifications

FrankM wrote:
Are you envisioning a 9x9 matrix on each Champion card? That's the only way I can see taking the friendly cube and the target cube factions into account.

Exactly. A 9x9 table of sorts.

FrankM wrote:
What happens when the players disagree on the pairing of cubes? Or is it always that the attacker gets to choose?

Neither, it's random drawing from your pouch. But the 9x9 grid drives the combat...

The strategy is fairly complex. But I think any player wanting some predictability could definitely find the logic behind the layers...

Don't you think???

Update: Each "Champion" will state the size of his party and the various powers versus all of the races. Obviously two (2) of the SAME cards (of "Champions") cannot attack each other since all the power values would be the same (identical cards).

Using the formula to grant a "Bonus +3" followers for all players who manage to score a "0" as their formula result. Now this will not be possible all the time and it will also vary based on the cards you choose ("Champions").

questccg
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New issue has arisen

Right now the 9x9 seems to work... but there is a "minor" (think major) problem with how the values in the charts are used.

Let's say a "Champion" has 8 for Fire. Whenever he plays "Fire" (Orcs - Red) his follower is worth 8 points. If that is the TOP value for all followers, well then all a player needs to do is load-up on "Fire" and he will win (most of the time).

Adding another race/faction with a HIGHER point (say 9) is the same thing. Just like the "Fire" (Orcs - Red), but now instead another race is dominant.

Now while this is NOT 100% true - there are more granular details that offset this A BIT... For the most part it is an irritant.


So what I was thinking was something RELATIVE instead of ABSOLUTE.

"9", "8", "7", ..., "1", "0" are ALL ABSOLUTE values.

When I say RELATIVE I am thinking about something like:

-6, -5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

I'm still reflecting on this system. So if there are OBVIOUS flaws, please feel free to point them out.

So far the ONLY rule I can think up is:

  • If two cards added together EQUAL ZERO (0) BOTH followers die.
  • -3 "+" +3 = 0. Both die.

Now I'm not 100% sure with the other RULES. Like for example:

  • If Player #1 is "Negative" and Player #2 is "Positive", the addition that the resulting number is the winner.
  • -3 "+" +4 = 1. Player #2 wins.
  • -4 "+" +2 = -2. Player #1 wins.
  • 0 "+" +1 = 1. Player #2 wins.

But there are TWO (2) CASES which I'm STUCK with and don't know what to do:

  • If BOTH Players have either 2 "Negative" or 2 "Positive" numbers.
  • -4 "+" -2 = -6. What does this mean???
  • +3 "+" +5 = 8. What does this mean too???

Some logical thinking is required - and at the moment, I have no clue HOW to resolve those two (2) cases.

But I feel that RELATIVE values may work BETTER... Provided I can handle the two (2) other cases.

Many thanks for reading. Any input/feedback/questions/comments are all welcome.

Update: Flash-in-the-pan IDEA... Both of the followers SURVIVE and nobody loses any points.

Could this work???

questccg
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Bump...

Wanted some "fresh eyes" on the idea of using "relative" values versus "absolute" values...

Opinions/Comments/Feedback/Questions/Suggestions ... all welcome!

FrankM
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I think you have the comparisons backwards

Shouldn't the comparison be about the difference between the two scores?

"+3" - "+2" equals 1 point advantage to P1.
"-2" - "-1" equals 1 point advantage to P2.
"+4" - "-2" equals 6 point advantage to P1.
" 0" - "+3" equals 3 point advantage to P2.

In this case, it's probably easier to use the "absolute" scores to avoid subtracting negative numbers. If you need to math-proof it, you can have a number line where you go Attacker Strength points right of a central starting point, then Defender Strength points to the left, and the color of the end spot determines the winner (the starting point would be a draw).

As for what to do in a draw, that could depend on the strengths. Low strength cubes might die and high strength cubes might survive. This could even be a characteristic controlled by the Champion.

questccg
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Hmm... I'm still thinking about it

BUT I had a thought. Instead of just comparisons, maybe the "Champion" plays a GREATER "role". What I mean by this is that each "Champion" could have a STAT and each cube could be it's modifier. Resulting in variable numbers which are the overall Power of a Follower + his Champion.

For example:

An "Order Human Fighter" has a POWER of "5". In addition he has an party/army of "5" Followers. If you draw a BLUE cube (+4) the combined Power of that cube = 9. So it's a VERY powerful "combination".

BUT an "Fire Orc Brawler" has a POWER of "6". He also has a party/army of "5" Followers. If you draw a BLUE cube (0) the combined Power of that cube = 6. However if instead you draw a RED cube (+4) the combined Power of that cube = 10! An even MORE powerful "combination".

The Market during the "BUYING" Phase will determine what "resources" are made available to the players. And that is determined by a randomly drawn card. So the Market and players determine what "Followers" a player gets to place into his "pouch" (for later drawing in the BATTLE Phase).

I still have to think MORE about this... To determine what is acceptable and what works - to BALANCE the game. There are several layers - to TRY to achieve something that is workable - not "always do this"...

Does this sound like it's going to work???

@FrankM - What are your thoughts on this?

FrankM
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Are you sticking with the RPS-9?

questccg wrote:
BUT I had a thought. Instead of just comparisons, maybe the "Champion" plays a GREATER "role". What I mean by this is that each "Champion" could have a STAT and each cube could be it's modifier. Resulting in variable numbers which are the overall Power of a Follower + his Champion.

For example:

An "Order Human Fighter" has a POWER of "5". In addition he has an party/army of "5" Followers. If you draw a BLUE cube (+4) the combined Power of that cube = 9. So it's a VERY powerful "combination".

BUT an "Fire Orc Brawler" has a POWER of "6". He also has a party/army of "5" Followers. If you draw a BLUE cube (0) the combined Power of that cube = 6. However if instead you draw a RED cube (+4) the combined Power of that cube = 10! An even MORE powerful "combination".

The Market during the "BUYING" Phase will determine what "resources" are made available to the players. And that is determined by a randomly drawn card. So the Market and players determine what "Followers" a player gets to place into his "pouch" (for later drawing in the BATTLE Phase).

I still have to think MORE about this... To determine what is acceptable and what works - to BALANCE the game. There are several layers - to TRY to achieve something that is workable - not "always do this"...

Does this sound like it's going to work???

@FrankM - What are your thoughts on this?


Are you reducing this to the Champion and a modifier from the current cube? If so, players will simply try to get the "best" cubes for that particular Champion.

The idea of a base Champion score plus modifiers (whether 9 scores or a 9x9 matrix) works, because then even if there is no cube for a particular match-up, the base Champion score can be used by itself. Realistically a Champion standing alone won't win against a rival Champion with advantageous followers, but maybe it can at least absorb some of the damage.

In order for Lone Hero Mode to work with the 9x9 matrix, the Champion will need its own faction affiliation so that followers use the correct modifiers. Not just thematic art and flavor text, but an explicit faction.

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