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Why NOT to CCG/TCG

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X3M
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I Guess

I am the exception then

questccg
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I will demonstrate what I mean...

X3M wrote:
I am the exception then

Here is a PREVIEW of one (1) card which demonstrates MY TECHNIQUE:

This shows how SOME of the stats are improved from one version to the other. BTW you can click on the IMAGE to get a new tab with a larger and more clear view of the three (3) samples...

Cheers!

Note #1: Some may say this is "Pay-to-Play" but not really. Yeah so the RARE cards are a BIT stronger. If I do a dissection of these Wizard Cards, it goes something like this:

  1. The Uncommon card has a +2 Defense BONUS when you unlock the 2nd Tier of Experience.

  2. The Rare card has BOTH a +3 Attack and +2 Defense BONUS... So it builds upon the Uncommon card and is just slightly better when using the Ex-P Crystals (Orange ones).

And so you see ... It's not REALLY "Pay-to-Play". They are SLIGHTLY better. But getting a few RARE cards in a booster can mean that you can TRADE with your friends over the cards that you want to keep and those you agree to exchange...

questccg
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Another small comment...

This means that the First Edition of the game will Feature 48 distinct Game Tiles... And you can play 2 or 4 players. Everything is Randomized with a series of "weights" (That's what JT showed me how to do...) and therefore it is computationally reasonable that you can get a lot of rares in a pack but because of probabilities ... getting all 15 rares in one (1) pack is truly a very small percentage of likelihood (like 0.1% or something like that)...

Note #1: And please I've watched a TON of Videos opening Booster Packs (Toralian Community College) and the prof skips past 75% of the pack and only focuses on the last few cards that have any VALUE...

I think for COLLECTORS this is PERFECT. You get the common cards and you have all the "nice" ART. But for the PLAYERS, you can figure out which of the RARE cards are a "must-have" and trade for them or pay a bit to get those ... If you find someone who may want to part with some of his rare cards.

questccg
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And to be my OWN critic

That Uncommon +2 Defense is much more VALUABLE than the +1 Attack Bonus. Having an Attack of 5 versus 6 is somewhat small bonus. But it depends on the opponent's Defense. So going from 3 to 5 Defense can be seen as a more DRAMATIC bonus.

As you know this is rather relative too... You may never collect the Crystal to grant that bonus... Or more importantly, you may NOT need that boost at all (because of where you placed your tile and the cards around it).

So these are relatively small bonuses ... That could make a difference but are not the "end of the World" if you don't have ALL of them. Having some of them just means that you know which cards to focus on and when to use your Ex-P Crystals on some of your own tiles.

Note #1: Know that this particular tile is very interesting since it has a lot of ATTACK locations on the Pattern Diagram. This means that all those BONUSES that I mentioned above could be useable at a later time in the game ... Since there are six (6) potential attacks that could be possible. It's a bit of an ODDs (probabilities) matter for sure.

Note #2: For the players, the uncommon version may be BETTER "enough". Meaning that for most players having the +2 Defense bonus is just enough BOOST for their needs. And so that's why the uncommon version has that more "important" improvement over the common version.

terzamossa
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hello

Hey, I actually just read the beginning of the thread when it started and now the end (and I see it went in a completely different direction!) So, hopefully I am not saying anything that has been said already, ignore me in that case!

Just saw the Mage Noir KS and thought of sharing with those interested in TCG
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/magenoir/mage-noir?ref=6f8jys&ksEBs...
While I am not sure if their business model is TCG, the game has taken a lot from MTG and others TCG (they even wrote a long post on the differences somewhere) so from my designer's perspective it is the same family, differences are on how they sell it (I appreciate there are differences in design, still the core game is similar)...and it's doing very good on KS!
Maybe somebody here is interested!

terzamossa
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questccg][quote=X3M wrote:I

questccg][quote=X3M wrote:
I am the exception then

Here is a PREVIEW of one (1) card which demonstrates MY TECHNIQUE:

Hi Kris, I really don't know what you were talking about so my comment might be totally out of place...sorry if that's the case! I just happened to look at your card and thought of sharing 2 thoughts.
1) is the graphic design final or just a place holder for now? There are lot of info at the bottom and it took me a while to realise that the square to the left must be where attack and defense are located in the tile, position-wise. I would personally find it hard during a game to take into account all of these positions for all tiles. Have you considered placing the attack/defense values already on those active corners/edges? I am thinking something like the final fantasy VIII card game, in which each card has 4 numbers (one per side) and you immediately see what they do when you place them and which side will be forever blocked by the map edge and so on. This would also allow you some value asymmetry e.g. a snake could have strong attack on the head side and lower defense on the flanks etc (I might be straying too much at this point ahahahahha)

2) In my experience (which is not massive tbh) the idea I got is that upgrades which just affect the numerical number may not be considered exciting by players (though they might bring strategical advantages and possibly lead to victory). In Kabula, I started removing these upgrades and instead giving players the possibility to create combo or unlock special skills. In your game, I thought that instead of having a +1 to defense I might enjoy more having the card with the same numerical value but with some perk such as "you can rotate this tile 90 degrees instead of placing a new one" (this just makes sense if attacks are directional)or "in your turn you can destroy this tile and any one tile of the opponent". Something on those lines. Again maybe this has nothing to do with your game and I am clearly just tossing ideas, I might hit a target or miss it completely!
Cheers,
Antonio

questccg
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No worries Antonio

The problem is mainly about WHY "not" to TCG/CCG. Most people think of course "Magic: the Gathering" (Magic) or Pokemon TCG (Poke). But there are other games such as "Yu-Gi-Oh!" or Duel Masters or KeyForge, etc. that all follow a similar "distribution" path.

It's clear and exact: produce a sheet of ? cards (300+) and print that in a format that could be booster packs, starter decks, single production packages, etc.

And it is VERY expensive especially in the ART department (300+ cards and illustration is a LOT of art). A sheet could be something like a massive amount of cards, however I have been in contact with China and they produce German Black "core" at over 300+ GSM which only yield 52 cards!

So a multiple of 52 is required (recommended not to waste any paper).

That's what I am talking about in terms of why NOT to TCG/CCG and the various pitfalls in the format.

This doesn't mean that you can't have a CARD GAME and have some novel play elements which can allow you to produce it and see it sold. Options such as "The Game Crafter" (TGC) are excellent for such opportunities. And it builds designer recognition... Something important because all of the various games we produce yield more "fruit" in terms of longevity and a career in the industry.

Anyhow this is yet ANOTHER reason why NOT to TCG/CCG. Cheers!

Note #1: It is very RARE that TCGs/CCGs succeed in the market. Meanwhile as gamers we are exposed to these games and think: "Hmm ... What if I made my own TCG/CCG???" And that way of thinking is WRONG in so many ways. TCGs and CCGs are mostly doomed to failure. And I have experience with "Quest Adventure Cards(tm)" which sold very little and did not get much traction into the game market.

The bottom line is that even if those formats are POPULAR in the industry, it would be BEST to simply design a 4-Player "Card Game" and sell it as such.

That is what I am focusing on with "Crystal Heroes" (CH) one of my most current designs. When CH will be made available, it's strictly a matter of selling a 2-Player or 4-Player game. The buyer chooses the option and gets "starting" tiles to play the game. That's the "Card Game" aspect.

But I don't "close the door" on customization... No the boosters will hopefully have a bunch of different options (different stats and even different cards from one pack to another).

So it's still in the SPIRIT of a TCG/CCG in that there will be more Game Tiles sold at a later time and that the packs you buy are randomized, etc. Without needing to invest $30k in terms of ONLY artwork and upwards of $10k in terms of production of 10,000 boosters or 100,000+ cards!

questccg
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You would need to become more familiar with Crystal Heroes!

terzamossa wrote:
1) is the graphic design final or just a place holder for now?

There are lot of info at the bottom and it took me a while to realize that the square to the left must be where attack and defense are located in the tile, position-wise. I would personally find it hard during a game to take into account all of these positions for all tiles. Have you considered placing the attack/defense values already on those active corners/edges? ...

Yes the Game Tile format is final. I've already had the format re-designed by a PRO "Graphic Designer" (Jason Greeno) and he helped in the department of making the cards more "editable" in Photoshop.

Don't forget that you only get 2 Game Tiles in your Hand! Player #1 gets 3 ... So there aren't too many tiles to create AP (Analysis-Paralysis).

terzamossa wrote:
2) In my experience (which is not massive tbh) the idea I got is that upgrades which just affect the numerical number may not be considered exciting by players (though they might bring strategical advantages and possibly lead to victory). In Kabula, I started removing these upgrades and instead giving players the possibility to create combo or unlock special skills.

The GOAL is to encourage gamers to BUY more "Booster Packs"! So while you can only buy 4 packs to play 4-Players ... It might be more interesting to buy 8 packs and allow players to fully customize their Micro Decks.

You really would need to read the rules to understand HOW to play this game. It is very different from most other games (especially TCGs/CCGs).

But thanks for your interest. STAT boosters are strategic for GAME PLAY! They of course imply RARITY of the cards too... But are NOT the FOCUS of the game itself. Sure having an all RARE Micro Deck might give you a strategic ADVANTAGE ... But it doesn't mean you will win the match!

let-off studios
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Layout/UI Redesign

questccg wrote:
Yes the Game Tile format is final. I've already had the format re-designed by a PRO "Graphic Designer" (Jason Greeno) and he helped in the department of making the cards more "editable" in Photoshop.
I imagine that when in a game, a player can "shingle" the tiles in their hand in such a way that the card artwork is overlapped while the relevant information on the bottom-third of the cards is available and next to one another, allowing for quick comparison. The different colours in use helps with distinction as well.

I think the card/tile design looks pretty nice.

questccg
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Another seemingly aspect to CCGs/TCGs... is

The Kickstarter community of Backers ... Aren't really interested in CCGs and/or TCGs.

Why? Because after an initial print-run ... Will there be more editions???

Like if it cost about $50,000 to make a First Edition ... Will there be enough profit to re-invest ANOTHER $50,000. Sure you can TRY a 2nd Kickstarter and maybe your backers will "pitch-in" ... But you must all get what I mean... Longevity.

A game is a game is a game. You can play it with ? Players over-and-over! That's why Board and Card Games do better than CCGs/TCGs on KS. Sure you can design expansions... But baiting more Backers that way has not seen to be a success... What I mean is that if you get 500 KS Backers for your "core" and then you pump out an expansion, you may get 350 KS Backers. And so there is NOT an increase (in most cases) of size of your crowd.

How do I know this? I've seen this with one BGDF.com member and I've watched many games out-there too that seem to follow in this exact "pattern".

So that's first and foremost why "Crystal Heroes" is a 2-Player or 4-Player game. What you want to BUY-INTO is your choice. Either a 2-Player duel format is less expensive but offers less flexibility or the 4-Player versus format ... You can opt to play only 2-Players but it also supports BOTH formats (so you can play 4 Players).

Of course I am hoping to see "expansion" Game Tiles and offer those at a reasonable price point in the future... And have the "core" as an "Add-On" which allows NEW player to pick-up the "core" with an expansion...

But that is only if the game is firstly successful its first time around!

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