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Some thoughts about heavy euro games

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larienna
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One type of game that I try to stay away could be called heavy euro games. Now I am not sure exactly how they could be defined, I think the threshold for being heavy could vary from a player to another. Now one thought that came to my mind is that could I design such a game. As a solitaire game, that could make sense because you generally want more complex games since you have more time, and need some challenge. But to do so, I would need to understand how heavy euro are designed.

Now what kind of game do I have in mind when I say heavy euro games, here are some quick examples:

  • Terra Mystica (the best example I have)
  • Hyperborea
  • ??? (Maya calendar board game (forgot the name))

Now what are the characteristics of those games besides requiring heavy thinking:

  1. There is not a core common mechanism. Some could be worker placement, some can have a map to explore, etc.

  2. There is a lots of resources and ways to exchange between them.

  3. Many seems to have a lot of icons.

  4. There seems to have different ways to get the same results, like multiple ways to get a resources. This is not bad in it self until there is too many paths. Or where all paths will give a bit of everything, making choices less meaning full.

  5. Maximum density and complexity of mechanics. It's like if they said, lets put almost all possible mechanics in this game. Have like a dozen of sub systems interacting with each other. Terra mystica is good at doing this.

  6. Poor connection with the theme. You do stuff, to get stuff, but it does not necessarily makes sense. New mechanics get added with little thematic explanation.

  7. Strangely, there is little special powers and text abilities, because those special powers would need to be expressed as icon, which is not necessarily easy.

Now how can we design such a game?

It seems to contradict the KISS principle(Keep it simple stupid). I even wonder if those games are actually balanced, because there is so many combinations and things going on that it's complicated to test thoroughly without digital play testing. Exploding the amount of mechanism and resources to make it heavy seems to make it pointless.

Or maybe we should ask ourselves that attracts that kind of gamer in the first place?

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Mayan calendar game is Tzolk'in: The Mayan Calendar

The Mayan calendar game is Tzolk'in: The Mayan Calendar.

I wonder in to the heavy euro space at times. I understand what you mean about some times the mechanics not matching the theme. I thought that dinosaur world did good job tying theme and mechanics, but I thought there were too many mechanics for my taste.

Sorry I cannot help you with your question.

Good luck with your game.

questccg
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I don't think I could DESIGN a "Heavy Euro" TBH!

I have to say that "Lorenzo Il Magnifico" was a Heavy Euro and I watched it being played at a local get-together. And TBH for ME, there is just too much going on and you need to do too many things in multiple ways of achieving the same outcome just with a different path taken.

That's your point #4, #5 and #6 combined into one big topic.

If I was to approach this kind of game, I would start with a specific THEME. And then make that the focal point of the game but then create subsystems to make the game work.

Obviously I HATE this approach because it results in #6 (Poorly connected with the theme).

Although I have to say, I have been EXPLORING "PoA" (Plains of Aria) a game design of my own which has been growing in terms of LAYERS. But at it's "core" it is a Tile Laying Game...

But having said this ... It may be a "Euro Game" and not a "Heavy Euro Game" either.

So I am aware of what it looks like to ADD "Layers" to a game. Is it HEAVY? Maybe as you add a LAYER it makes it more "complexe" and I guess you could say that overall this makes the game more challenging and more difficult to win too...

Heavy Euros are definitely NOT "KISS" by nature. They fuse a bunch of SEMI-RELATED topics into one game. Like Farms and such into The Papacy in Lorenzo.

***

What is the attraction? I think it requires you to perform on MANY levels at a greater rate of success than the opponents. It's like trying to figure out how to best build a house: the plan is one thing but the materials are another. Just because you have a good design doesn't mean the who thing will WORK TOGETHER TBH.

I don't really like Euros let alone Heavy ones.

BUT and here is my question to you: What are you trying to achieve by wanting to design a "Heavy Euro"?

That may yield some information about where to look at next in terms of figuring out if you HAVE or HAVE NOT a "theme" you would like to explore. I ask only because this is not something that I would "personally" design.

Cheers @larienna.

Note #1: Lorenzo Il Magnifico is a Worker Placement Heavy Euro where you draft dice from different positions which affect what you can do and what you can buy as upgrades for your farms... It's definitely a Heavy Euro for SURE! Check it out...

questccg
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Also ...

"Plains of Aria" (PoA) my Game Tile game has taken great leaps and bounds in the last 48 hours. The problem I am having now is HOW(?) to PLAN a game. See you lay Game Tiles and there are connectivity rules. Each player (and the game allows from 2 to 4 Players) has their OWN set of Game Tiles. You buy the Game Tiles "individually" and add them to your collection.

But the issue is HOW(?) to approach the game from a player's Point-Of-View (POV).

It's kinda like the issue with your Friends World-Building Game... He wanted to make sure the hexes finished up correctly for the map.

My issue is similar: "How do you build a map knowing that your opponent may thwart your area of play?"

What has this to do with "Heavy Euro" games?!

Well PoA is very ABSTRACT and as such I see it a bit like a PUZZLE. But it's not like Jigsaw Puzzles... The MAPPING is dynamic and sometimes requires you to have ALTERNATIVES. I know this is where EXTRA "Gems" come into play and I recently discarded the 20 Gem rule (previously you could only have 20 Gems distributed over 20 tiles) ... It was too messy and got rid of it for no limit.

I THINK PoA could be a "Medium Euro"... Why do I think this? Well look at it this way:

#1: You lay Game Tiles in the area of play.

#2: You rely on Gems on the Tiles to connect the Tiles together.

#3: You position Cities & Temples to score "Culture Points".

#4: You roll a dice to decide what type of Tile will be played per turn.

#5: You may pass a turn if you do not what to play a specific Tile type.

#6: The "Star" on the dice allows players to choose any Tile type.

***

So it's very PUZZLE-ISH and then there is the whole "Tactical Layer" which allows you to score points in order to win the game. And the each Game Tile Type has placement rules (meaning that you must obey build rules...) And the Cities & Temples also follow their OWN scoring rules too.

***

I'm very happy with what I have! Since a while I had been thinking about HOW to SCORE the game and just yesterday I had a "turtling" issue which is now resolved and the conclusion is if you "turtle" you'll probably lose the game!

Simple and efficient. Haha.

***

I think it will take 20 minutes per player to play the game making the average game 40 to 60-Minutes... Not LIGHT, but not HEAVY either. So "Medium Euro" sounds about right...?!

What do you think???

questccg
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I had been working on something and the ideas finally CEMENTED!

So there was this IDEA that player's would have CARDS associate with their Game Tiles and that there could be a kind of "Euro-approach" to non-invasive play which leads to each player doing their BEST to win the match.

As yesterday and today, I really did a good job of making the links between the "Kingdom Points" and the "Culture Points" as each Temple has a variable amount of points it can have.

Moreover that point is a value from 1 to 6. This is an amazing observation and it goes a LONG WAY in crystalizing what I had been thinking about for at LEAST 6-Months.

Those ideas came fast and furious last night and finished off with me wrapping up the design tonight. Clearly the next step is to build a prototype and see where this all leads.

But I'm very positive about the outcome of this "builder" game.

Even if the game is rather "simple" the depth of strategy is HUGE. It's NOT like Magic: the Gathering where you build your Deck and then everything hinges on those cards... No there is REAL variance and you need to understand HOW to best build your Realm.

It's "Euro" because there is less opponent interference and most players are caught up in their own portion of the game play area to really affect an opponent. Yes sometime it may work, other times it may not, etc. etc. But for the most part, all players can build as they see fit according to what they have chosen as Game Tiles...

However the Random "Kingdom Points" are what set the game aside and will show who are the ELITE players who know how to transform a difficult outcome and make it their own.

Very excited for this prototype... Maybe as EARLY as next month when I receive all the parts that I've ordered from "The Game Crafter" (TGC).

Cheers!

questccg
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Some additional thoughts

The other approach is that usually most "Euro" games have different SCORING PATHS and you can win points using different methods. Maybe if you focus on this in terms of figuring what KIND of ways you can EARN points, you may more easily manage to piece something together.

IDK... This is just another IDEA about HOW(?) to construct a "Heavy Euro" game.

In the end, this will create MAYBE a bit more "connected" theme if you ALSO take that into consideration. YMMV but this could be one valid approach.

Best.

larienna
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One thing I think is common

One thing I think is common with those heavy euro games is the lack of cards. At least, the lack of card cycling and shuffling. Card could be used for reference information, or as a worker placement position. But there rarely cycling of card to consider. Low randomness could also be a good characteristics of euro.

I don't have a particular game in mind, just curious of the game genre. See if there is something I have not explored here. Automated digital play testing should greatly make it easier to balance.

What I dislike the most in euro is when you have a game where you can do anything, you want, you will reach your objective anyway. Making it hard to determine what made you win or lose the game. Everybody did stuff and somebody won.

questccg
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Yes this is TRUE...

Cards if used are NOT involved in cycling or shuffling. Usually they act as COMPONENTS that go towards improving your condition.

If YOU make a "Heavy Euro" Car Racing Game ... I could find someone who would be interested in publishing it. Or more that I know someone who could be interested in this TYPE of game.

"Heavy Euro" because they prefer games with SYMBOLS than actual TEXT and WRITTING to be able to SELL in Quebec. So it's by default, UNIVERSAL when it comes to the language issue.

And you need some sense of progression too.

Don't know any of the details. I'm not a real Car Fanatic... Who knows everything there is to know about cars and racing, etc. But just saying that might be an ORIGINAL IDEA: a "Heavy Euro" whose theme is "Car Racing"...

Just a thought. Cheers!

larienna
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Icons do make it multi

Icons do make it multi lingual, but sometimes the iconography make the rules more confusing. Race for the galaxy is one of them.

There are many racing board games, some are better than other. I am not sure they qualify as heavy. From my memory:

  • Thunder Alley (might be the heaviest game I played)
  • Arena Maximus (much simple, but I liked the core mechanics, also made a variant for it)
  • Circus Maximus (Never played, apparently an old heavy coliseum racing game)
  • Rally man (not sure it's that good)
  • Formula D (never played but looks interesting, different dices when you shift gears)
  • Alta velocide (draw a racing line with decals, its a different experience.)
  • Pitch car (dexterity racing game, takes a lot of space)
  • ??rush and crush (not sure the title): F-zero clone, but with lot of fighting.

If I ever design something, it will look like Arena Maximus.

There are heavy games, and heavy euro games. Old war games are considered heavy games, but they do not have the same look and feel than euro heavy besides the theme. You will not have resolution tables in an heavy euro.

questccg
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Is it???

Rush n' Crush: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/46782/rush-n-crush

Doesn't look all that great TBH. The "racers" look like bugs... Haha!

Like compressed grasshoppers... Hehehe.

I was not thinking about all those games. I was thinking about a "Heavy Euro" meaning you could MODIFY and CUSTOMIZE your CAR.

One member introduced HIS game: "Overtake: Race Manager"

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/402244/overtake-race-manager

I was more thinking along those lines TBH. But more EURO-ish and therefore some kind of SEASON (1-Year) and races (again EURO-ish).

Do you see where I am going with the IDEAS???

Note #1: NO actual RACES only simulation of the races with something like (maybe) Indycar or something like that. I'd focus on the MANAGER aspect and ignore the actual RACING. Or it's like how you improve the performance of YOUR car vs. the opponents. And then a simulation on how to actually WIN a RACE and score points for your SEASON...

Something like that...

Note #2: Reiner Knizia has a game going in the opposite direction (more RACE-focused):

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/290981/formula-motor-racing

When I say SIMULATION, I'm talking about "simulated" the races given a car's equipment and performance. Different than all of those games mentioned. It would REALLY be a RACE MANAGER type of game.

Do you understand my concept???

questccg
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Winnings and Sponsorship

And a way to CHANGE the ODDS from your first (1st) playthru towards your tenth (10th) playthru. I'd kinda (or maybe) would add a LEGACY component with REMOVABLE stickers but also like you to CONTINUE the racing...

IDK these are just embryonic IDEAS ATM.

But somehow a way to progress from one game to the next AS WELL as from one RACE to another.

Like there could be 12-Races in a Season. But you only have time for 3 or 4 RACES per night. And then the whole simulation and customization ... And also a way to search for SPONSORSHIPS and marketing, etc. etc.

HEAVY on the SIMULATION of the game ... But NOT heavy on the RACES!

google wrote:
In IndyCar, all teams use the same chassis, which is manufactured by Dallara, meaning you essentially "build on the same vehicle" as every other team...

... the only major difference between cars comes from the engine choice between Honda and Chevrolet.

You could probably find ways to TWEAK your vehicle VIRTUALLY. Some kind of virtual vehicle RATING and the capabilities of the drivers.

google wrote:
The series has 10 teams that can field between two and five cars per race.

IDK how that impacts the GAME... But having 2 cars is better than only having 1 for sure... Just some forward thinking!

larienna
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Of course, you can abstract

Of course, you can abstract the entire race according to a few die rolls. Maybe track has some features: Amount of curves, weather, etc. Pilots and vehicles also have certain features making it easier or harder to perform on certain tracks.

I like the manager idea, could be applied to many type of games, its just that it might work better as a video game where lot of data could be handled. Else you have to determine what are the decision of the player between races: Tweaking cars, training pilots, ???

This is a blood bowl manager card game from FFG, not sure of the title, where entire matches were resolved by playing a few cards. The mechanics did not make much sense, but you could resolve a match pretty quickly.

I could almost do the same with my space ship rally game, abstract the resolution completely, but I think I would have used a kind of dungeon delving mechanism where you flip an encounter card for the next challenge and try to resolve it. Again ship and crew stats would impact on the resolution. Players might choose a strategy and just roll to resolve the encounter. Some resources might get depleted on the way. Then between games, you could invest your money to repair, upgrade the ship, hire crew member if you are owning an house of racers. It could become a kind of campaign game.

questccg
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Blood Bowl: Team Manager (by FFG)

larienna wrote:
...I like the manager idea, could be applied to many type of games, its just that it might work better as a video game where lot of data could be handled. Else you have to determine what are the decision of the player between races: Tweaking cars, training pilots, ???

Marketing and finding Sponsors. Spending money on a new car. Tweaking the vehicle (Spoilers, struts, suspension, Tires, NOS, etc. etc.)

larienna wrote:
This is a blood bowl manager card game from FFG, not sure of the title, where entire matches were resolved by playing a few cards. The mechanics did not make much sense, but you could resolve a match pretty quickly.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/90137/blood-bowl-team-manager-the-ca...

Anyways I agree a MANAGER type game could lend itself well to a Heavy-Euro Game for sure. That's what I think... Anyhow.

larienna
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Quick flash, there is a video

Quick flash, there is a video game that liked when I was younger, it was "super off road". One of the main feature is that you could race 3 players on the same screen. I wonder if that could be made as a board game.

Using maybe formula D / rush and crush style track with different behavior on each space depending of if you have a hole, a ramp, a pond of water, etc. Using nitro in different condition could have different outcome.

Most racing games seems to require to be multiplayer. Solitaire mode is more complicated, it's more a beat the score type of game.

I am also an F-Zero fan, I had an idea to use an Arena maximus system to handle those kind of races.

questccg
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Hmm... Not sure about that!?

I just wanted to say that the ideas you proposed are for more "Tactical" Board Games which have a "track" and require "racing" as a component of the game. In the case of a "Manager"-style game, it's more abstract and can be handled with some dice and maybe some cards.

Yes I've played "Super Off Road" at a friend's home like 35 Years ago! Haha.

Why not go to something like "Micro Machines" and have a track. I've seen a Video game with those mini-vehicles too and they would have all kinds of whacky tracks around stuff on a table like a pencil (evade), books (Ramp), etc. etc.

While my "Manager" concept would tend to yield something more in-line with a "Heavy Euro". Anything Tactical is most certainly Ameritrash ... But we do love those game also. But there is more RANDOMNESS, more THEME and more DIRECT CONFLICT in those games. A racing game in the Tactical sense would feel more like that IMHO.

But I'm not designing that kind of game... Right now I am focused on getting PoA a bit more "beefy" than it is with the ADDITION of Knights. IDK... In a Euro game there is less "direct conflict" ... So more thought is required about this. Maybe once you get a Capitol, you can "recruit" a Knight. To move, he requires -1 Income (or Gold) for each space. And maybe he acts like a "Blocker"... Still thinking. It's too simple ATM. Further thought is needed!

Anyhow... I'm still working on it. TBD.

larienna
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Micro machine, that game was

Micro machine, that game was nice too. Some vehicles were more fun to ride than others. I think they made a modern remake a few years ago.

I preferred super off road. The arcade was better because you had a steering wheel. I always wondered how they actually programmed this game. The collision with walls and fake 3D environment puzzles me, I would have no idea how to implement this.

For you heavy euro game. Maybe a worker placement game. You assign people of your team to different tasks. See the "Ford vs Ferrari" movie for some inspiration. The movie starts slow.

questccg
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Well some clue on how to do it OOP

But procedurally you have a Game Loop (or While) and you check all objects in the vicinity of (x, y, z). So if you have a Pond and your vehicle is near it... At the start, you could call a function that makes a "Splash".

But basically the idea is ONE GIANT loop to check for collisions.

How to generate... Not sure about that TBH. Or how to control the vehicle and give it that "off-road" feel for the suspension. That's also something that I don't know.

But collisions that I've seen. In OOP, IDK... You have a bunch of objects in the game, and then you call the Collide(x, y, z) Method with coordinates to see if the object collides or not. Something like that. You put your objects in an Array of the same Base Object and then you call the Collide Method in the base Object which invokes the actual Method of the Object in question...

However YEAH coding games can be very complex ... Even things that seem trivial like that game (simple... You just race...) And even then... Takes a LOT of effort to code something like that.

Cheers!

larienna
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This is not really the

This is not really the problem. Having a list of object to check for collision is one way to do it.

My problem is how to you represent the data of the world since it's not a 2D map, so x,y coordinates is not enough. And it's not a 3D world.

They cheated somewhere to give that 3D feeling. I don't know exactly how.

There might be some resemblance with 2.5D Games like TMNT arcade game, double dragon, King of dragons, Golden axe,etc. Where you have a depth on the Z axis.

questccg
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I know this much...

There is a LOT of MATH in Computer Games. Your 2.5D games I've seen and played those and it's a bit EASIER to mimic those given a LIMITED 3D area of play. I would probably be able to re-create Double Dragon or Golden Axe because the idea is whenever you Punch or Kick or Attack with A Weapon, you use the Collision(x, y, z) where the "Z" is a limited area (I don't know... Like from 0 bottom to +20 Z top) and then check the collision when a MOVE (Punch, Kick, Attack with a Weapon, etc. etc,) is played. Same goes for moving. You could go BOTH ways up until a LIMIT forwards and backwards in the AREA for that Level.

But things like Ramps and Logs and suspension and jumping... All that takes a CLEVER way of approximating things. And I'm pretty sure it's approximation and to a degree "simulation".

Again ALL MATH and clever ways to make approximations and ways to cut corners without the need for FULL 3D MATH and Coordinates.

Maybe your Monster Truck Game (Super Off Road) uses a 2D Map (x, y) laying FLAT with COLOR to indicate the HEIGHT of each area. Like a RAMP would be start at Z = 0 (Green), to Z = 10 (Red) with hues in-between. and then maybe it's a Jump-off Point and so after the Z = 10, the next position is Z = 0 (Green). I've used a similar concept in Terrain Generation for 3D Combat. It could make 3D Terrains (pretty realistic looking) using a PLASMA MAP. Basically each pixel is the HEIGHT of the pixel's location. And to vary the variance or peaks of the terrain, you have a different Z-Offset value you use.

Anyhow that's what I could picture... Using a 2D Map with color.

Also SIERRA PC Games used 2D Colored Map to determine where a player could move his character and the various areas around the screen to where a player could move between rooms, etc. Again it's like 2.5D...

That's what my GUT tells me... They uses a 2D Map with COLORS representing the HEIGHT of each Truck Location on the MAP.

Maybe that helps you out a bit... Like I said, a lot of games use COLOR and a 2D Map to simulate 3D collisions and movement.

Cheers!

Note #1: And then you would need to use Velocity or F = M x A, Newton's Second Law of motion. And then you could probably "simulate" a Truck launching itself at the end of a Ramp... Like I said more MATH. And ways to calculate things and then use a 2D Map with Color...

I think there could be ways to simplify the MATH and make it work too. Not 100% sure on that... Just a hunch. If we can cleverly define the area of play using a 2D Map with Color, I'm sure there are ways to move a Truck around without the need for massive CPU Computation...

questccg
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I you want an IDEA about the Color Mapping...

Here's what I mean (at it can be seen a W3Schools):

https://www.w3schools.com/colors/colors_mixer.asp

On the LEFT, you can choose 2 COLORS and on the RIGHT, you get a Gradient of COLORS which can be used to handle 3D (2.5D) terrain.

That Gradient can be one extra dimension... And you could use #00FF00 (Green) and #FF0000 (Red)... And then you get bunch of colors on the RHS which can allow you to manage the 3D aspect of terrain for game like Super Off Road (Monster Truck Game)...

Best.

larienna
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Hmm! a kind of heat map where

Hmm! a kind of heat map where the color is the height, combined with the X and Y position on the screen.

So the same X,Y position of different map could be low or high, changing the movement speed depending on the direction you are moving and the height.

Interesting!

questccg
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And you could have BLACK #000000

Which means IMPASSABLE, immediate IMPACT stopping your vehicle dead in its tracks... So after the HAY and BARRELS, there could be a point which is NOT passable from one direction and forces the player to turn around and go in the "correct" direction to get back to the Track and racing...

Same as a BLUE #0000FF area which means water like a pond or giant mud puddle.

You can do a LOT with that 2D Map + Colors...

That may help you understand how SOME game do Approximations that are fairly or should I say "sufficiently" good that the game feels like a REAL RACE or a real Truck with the whole suspension and giant tires.

Glad you found that of value and interesting!

Sincerely.

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Also for you to consider

If you want to create a 3D Terrain, you could use a PLASMA Algorithm.

https://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/02/midpoint-displacement/#s9-midpoint-di...

That page has some interesting ideas. But like the algorithm states, Set the FOUR CORNERS to RANDOM VALUES and then you want to sub-divide and re-iterate.

I'm sorry this webpage uses PROCEDURAL method. I can't remember how to do it recursively. But I know that when I was doing my "Computer Graphics" Course, I used it to create terrains much like he suggests.

With values from 0 to 255.

And then you set a LEVEL like 25 = Water. You just create a rectangular plane which is semi-transparent for the Water Level.

You can use a COLOR MAP which you can apply as a Texture which can simulate various terrains like Desert, Savannah, Forests & Mountains, etc. etc.

I did this for my Final Project. I wanted to create a 3D Combat game. I got maybe 50% there... I had all the terrain and you could customize it (kinda like this guy above) because I had Windows Menus as it was a DirectX project.

Anyways I did not complete the game. But I got an A+ for the amazing Terrain. The professor saw that I had put in much effort to make the Terrain Generation very dynamic and it looked pretty REALISTIC.

Cheers!

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