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Cover from terrain mechanic

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X3M
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Current rules:

First rule.
Attack from a terrain with cover, gives a 1 time penalty to the enemy.
Result is that with a terrain with 50% cover, allows 50% of the dice to hit. But also that there is only 50% units allowed to be present.

How does this look in numbers?
If a normal open region may contain 12 soldiers.
The mentioned region with cover may contain only 6 soldiers.
Firing into that region with reducing the number of potential hits from 12 to 6. Attacking from that same region remains 6.

Second rule.
Take cover in a terrain with cover, gives a 2 times penalty to the enemy.
Result is that with a terrain with 50% cover, allows 25% of the dice to hit.

How does this look in numbers?
Firing into that region with reducing the number of potential hits from 12 to 3.

End results?
12 man squad deals 6 or 3 damage. This equals 2 or 1 kills.
The 6 man squad deals 3 or 0 damage. This equals 1 or 0 kills.
So, 2 versus 1 or 1 versus 0.

***

I don't see a reason of why a player would go into cover anymore.

Attacking or returning fire from such a region is ill adviced. Keep your squads as big as possible is the advice. I want to get rid of this. And have players make more use of the terrain.

Taking cover in certain regions doesn't cost an action point. However, you aren't dealing any damage. And you still can loose units.

***

Any idea is welcome.

Here is my idea for now:
The penalty is applied once by default. Then added 1 or 2 times depending on the action the player takes.

This means that attacking and returning fire from such a region, gives 50%^2 cover. Aka 75% cover or 25% potential hits. This will make the result equal. 1 versus 1. But remember, the squad hiding has only 6 men. So, the end result is 11 vs 5 after combat.

If the same squad takes cover, 12.5% potential hits.

Now, when 2 snipers are hiding in a dense forest. The penalty is 67%, or 33% potential hits. It is 11% potential hits when the snipers return fire. And a little less than 4% potential hits when they take cover.
A full squad of riflemen will have only 1 hit on average if snipers take cover. Thus they cannot even kill a sniper that way. And the snipers, if they attack, can roughly kill 3 riflemen. But, if they return fire, they will receive roughly 3 hits. Potentially losing 1 sniper.
Taking cover sure is usefull. And then take action afterwards. It is a risk though. But a risk that is worth it now.

As counter to taking cover. Well, I have a set of weapons ready already. They need to be revised though. But only the end region part, where the penalty will be taken twice. I have been reading through it. And I think I need to rewrite it as well. After all, a 0 ranged weapon that can hit 100% needs to have a maximum factor. And not just an attack range of 1 added. The factor is not going to be 2 anymore either. Yeah, this needs to be rewritten.
More expensive weapons should be a better choice in a crowded map. But obviously bad in an open map.

Enter: Flamethrowers, Gas attacks and Napalm.

questccg
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Just to be CLEAR...

When we were talking about MAPS and I was suggesting the Battle-View vs. World-View... You showed me that last MAP with 7 units...

Couldn't you make each UNIT a SQUAD??? Like if ONE (1) Unit had a "3" on it... that would means that the UNIT is a SQUAD with more units... OR say 3 Riflemen.

Because this is not like RTS where each unit is at max "1" Unit. You can easily deploy several of the SAME UNIT like "Engagement Rules" 1 vs. 1 means one-type of unit versus another.

So let's say one player chooses 5 Riflemen and the opponent choose 3 Grenadiers. This would mean 5 vs. 3 but 1 vs. 1 UNIT TYPE.

That kind of DIRECTION would make your game feel less like an RTS rip ... Because you are focusing on WARGAMING type issues.

Let me know if this is GOOD or not... But I like your forest idea where some units can GO and others CANNOT. Makes for more exciting BATTLES overall...

Best!

X3M
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people wonder

What map?

Either way. Not every picture shows the entire game.
The picture you have seen. Was a 3600 per player skirmish. It was a playtest.

Rifleman, 100
Sniper, 600
Hummvee, i think it was 400
Tank, 600

What you didn't see where the little whiteboard cards. Indicating how much units 1 picture represented etc.

1 "unit" could potentially be 36 riflemen.

Either way. The topic is cover mechanics.

The feedback from my potential players, so far, was this time positive.

A 50% force taking 50% damage sounded perfect. What thus happened was that some considered the 50% cover to act as if they were 50% fictional targets. And the other 50% would have the cover. I don't know how to describe it in a better way. But the game feels much more logically now in case of "taking" cover.

The cut in your force, will be the penalty on the enemy as if they use an equal force.

Ah yes, that one sniper going in a 1/6th space location. With 5/6th cover. Yes, this sniper takes only 1/36th number of hits....But....could even take cover and take only 1/216th of a hit. hahahaha. But here comes mr.Fart. And he farts a gas canister into the caves. The gas ignores the cover... Byebye mr. campy sniper.

There is one "uh oh..." moment. I just realized that a smaller squad gets a bonus on damage. This means, those that take cover actually are more effective. I completely forgot that. And I suspect the others as well.

- Smaller units get a bonus
- The smaller squad gets a bonus
A bonus is +50% firepower. Or a damage die going from -2 to only -1.

This is troublesome. I should compare a full squad to 3 smaller squads. Then do the same for when the smaller squads are in cover. And do that latter again for when I apply the new rule.
It is a lot of math. And I can get several different situations.

Smaller squads; all in range/1 at a time
Terrain; open/cover/newcover
Bonus; no/+50%

***

The bonus damage is more or less the opposite of cover. Less units, but they can deal more damage. I had chosen this, so that the game would progress.
We don't want a smaller squad to survive longer. But.... in a sense, I am doing the same with the smaller squad that takes cover. Perhaps. I should change the bonus damage into giving the opponent a penalty. The game is already fast enough. And the penalty system works well in a stack. Accuracy, terrain and then now, being the smaller squad. Sounds good to me.

Then again, the bonus damage never sat right with me. But having less hit chance on a smaller squad. While good, how to make this fair? At least, the bonus damage could be with the damage dice. Thus, you roll them, and when the targets seem to be bigger. You apply this. The other way around would be -40%. But a double penalty now would be -70%. I don't want that.

There is too much to think about. I should return to this subject after I got some NEW maps done.

questccg
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Off-topic for one last post.

X3M wrote:
What map?

Either way. Not every picture shows the entire game.
The picture you have seen. Was a 3600 per player skirmish. It was a playtest.

Rifleman, 100
Sniper, 600
Humvee, I think it was 400
Tank, 600

What you didn't see where the little whiteboard cards. Indicating how much units 1 picture represented etc.

1 "unit" could potentially be 36 riflemen.

Well that looked like an impressive "skirmish"! I know it's off-topic but to me that looks like the most impressive "terrain"... I know it's not super detailed like what you have done elsewhere... But sometimes simplicity is the best and I showed you how you can "personalize" that map by adding blanks (White Hexes) and allowing the players to configure the skirmish map even more.

That's my take on that matter... I won't complicate matters any more. Just that I think ALL encounters should be skirmishes which force players to bring in the RIGHT set of troops into the battle.

It's like have 5 types of units and only allowing for 3 types in a 3 vs. 3 Battle Map. You would love to take ALL 5 types but this is NOT allowed by the rules of the Battle Map. And so you need to make choices.

That's also SUPER strategic too...

Enough said from me... I like discussing the maps because I've shown you my ideas and you've showed me some of yours as well.

Sincerely.

Note #1: And I thought the exchange was super informative and that you had a bunch of directives to follow towards making the MAPS needed by your SOLO CAMPAIGN and Multi-Player Combat. Congrats... Looks like you have a bunch of GREAT ideas already!

X3M
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Where to put the data? Directly here, or excel then conclude?

The other topic is more for the maps though.

Here I am solely looking at the change in cover by terrain.

I did some proper tests. I removed that post entirely now. Because I have made a conclusion that the current bonus system applied in the correct way. Will already make a 36 in the open vs 12 in the dense forest. Have both sides loose 12 units.

While the 12 without cover will remove only 6 instead of 12.

When applying the double cover AND the bonus damage. The 36 in the open loose hard.... I didn't even test against 3 squads of 12 in the cover with the old rules.

Conclusions:
36 vs 12, 36 wins, but the 12 has 50% bonus
36 vs 12 in old cover, 36 wins, but the 12 has 50% bonus and can deal twice the damage due to a longer run
36 vs 12 in new cover, the 12 win, they have the bonus for a long time. And manage to turn the tides during the 3rd round. The 36 get the bonus. But 7 out of the 12 are left. And thus the remaining of the 36, which is less than 7. Will die very fast.

x1.5 is <<< /9
And by that logic.
x1.5 is also <

questccg
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What kind of NOTATION is that???

X3M wrote:

x1.5 is <<< /9
And by that logic.
x1.5 is also << /3

Can you just explain the notation??? I can read. But when you used some contrived notation which is not easily understood unless we are in your brain... This makes it hard to comprehend what you are saying or getting at.

Perhaps this is WARGAME notation and I am not so familiar with that.

But I get that often you introduce syntax or math which is difficult to follow.

I'm only asking because I read what you post even if I don't reply to EVERYTHING.

Cheers!

X3M
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The balancing has its limit

The bonus damage is more or less a balancer. That speeds up the resolution process.

If soldiers can get 150% or 200% damage. That is depending on their opponents.

I had written 4 page worth of calculations and what not, on this topic. But I figured. No one is interested in reading it all. I simply posted the conclusions.

I could explain in short what happened.

I tested the new cover mechanic in the forest, in combination with the bonus damage rule.

The bonus damage rule has 2 parts. The part that mattered is simply giving 50% extra damage to the outnumbered squad.
An example is 14 soldiers vs 10 soldiers. The difference is 4 soldiers. Then of those 10 soldiers, 4 will deal 150% damage on average. The total average damage for those 10 soldiers is now 12.

I looked at 36 soldiers vs 12 soldiers.
Their starting damage is 36 vs 18.
With 3 health per soldier. The 12 soldiers die instantly. But take down 6 instead of 4.

If the 12 soldiers take cover. They take only 1/3rd of all the damage on average. So 36 damage would be only 12 damage.
Hence I said, that x1.5 << /3. This because 12 damage << 18 damage.
After the first resolution. There are 30 vs 8 soldiers remaining.

With the double cover. The 4 would even be only "1.3" Or just 1. That is waaay to much.

With the old cover system. The end result is that both sides loose 12 soldiers on average. With the one in cover having a slight advantage in damage.

Although, I tested with full cover. The original rules, now it seems. Allows for half the cover. I never changed this. But I should.

For now, my school who hijacked my Word and Excel. Has left. And thus microsoft decided i may not use Word and Excel anymore. I guess, I reinstal the original ones that I bought.

Microsoft does this a lot, don't they? Simply deleting your stuff. Then ask for money?

X3M
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Right...several tests should be made

For starters. I should make sure that I write this down...correct. And then, next time, I might change some rules if nessesary.

I should do the tests. And my office works again. I got my old account back.

First things first.
A squad can take a limited ammount of actions during a round. You pay the required AP. And also any old AP from that same round. Thus 1st action costs 1. 2nd action costs 2. 3rd action costs 4. A total of 1, then 3, then 7.
2 squads can go for 1 and 1, then 3 and 3. We loose 1 AP.
3 squads can go for 1, 1 and 1, then 3, 3 and still 1.

Attack
costs 1 AP + old AP
A target gets selected and attacked.

Rest
costs 0 AP
You literally don't react.
No old AP payment required

Hide
costs 0 AP + old AP
The terrain gives 100% cover.
I really put the following in the rules:
"Old AP payment required!"

Return fire
costs 1 AP + old AP
The terrain gives 50% cover.

Lure costs
1 AP + old AP
The attacker can now change to this target.
The terrain gives 50% cover.

***

My current doubts are:
- Why did I put that "Old AP payment required!" in the rules?
- While I allow a lure, why did I not allow a combination of the 2 re-actions lure and hide?

In the testing. I would like to go for 1 Squad of 36 riflemen and 3 Squads of 12 riflemen that are in the forests.

The ones in the forests are supposed to be the defenders. Thus the 1 Squad goes first. Lets call the player with 1 Squad, "A". And the player with the 3 Squads, "B1, B2 and B3"

A attacks B1.

What would be best to do? Hide or Return Fire? Logically speaking, hiding doesn't cost us AP right now. But Returning fire does, and only gives 50% cover.

The cover is x1/3 when hiding and x2/3 when returning fire.
12 riflemen have 12 projectiles. The accuracy is 5/6th by default. And we are with 10 projectiles left.
36 riflemen have 36 projectiles. The accuracy is 5/6th by default. And we are with 30 projectiles left.
But, A will meet B1 by it hiding or returning fire.
Thus this 30 is either 10 or 20 projectiles that hit.

This equals 3 deaths with 1 damage or 6 deaths with 2 damage.
Remaining is 9 riflemen with 1 light injury or 6 riflemen with 1 heavy injury.

I am sure you see my dilemma here. Let's see what happens when we hide first.

Math asside, the first round for A results in:
B1=2
B2=12
B3=12
Clearly B2 and B3 are going to fire twice each. Then we have B1 fire once.

Math asside, the first round for B results in:
A=23, with an injury of -0.89

Round 2?
A could finish of B1. But we should first see how much damage it does. Perhaps it isn't wise to do so. And put all damage into B2 instead. Since 2 squads of B can attack twice. Meaning that damage done on another squad is twice as effective.

Math asside once more, second round results in:
B1=2
B2=6, with an injury of -0.389
B3=12
and
A=12, with an injury of -0.45

Round 3!
We now target the biggest squad again. But we don't have much power remaining.
12 x5/6 x1/3 = 3.33
And it is here that I realize. That return fire might become interesting as soon as player A deals less than half damage than player B. Because a return fire goes equally. And this squad cannot hide properly a second time.

What we need to consider is the damage with return fire. Return fire itself. And the after effect where hiding is not possible, so another return fire is the most logical thing to do.

Clearly (viewing the math), B will win because this squad is already on top here. And this return fire is usefull as soon as B has 1.5 times more forces in the biggest squad.
But a loophole is of course. A attacks another squad, and that squad takes 100% damage. It is saver to wait with return fire or lure, once the squads are equal.

B players should realize this. And risk with a lure into fooling A players. A players by now, have done anything possible. And shouldn't be fooled anymore.

B wins in the long run here. But only if all of its 3 squads are able to do something....That is a very important thing to note!

***

Long story short. A full squad has trouble defeating 3 smaller squads that are in a forest.
I don't know yet about other value's yet.
But 2 squads of 50% and 50% full cover is another story.
Further, there is this 6 squads of 16.7% with 83.3% cover.

Weaponry that ignores the cover effects of terrain. Are on average 50% more expensive. And the whole unit is then roughly 25% more expensive. Or we make the weapon 67% effective, with an equal cost.

Going from 36 with 12 or 24 hits. To 29 with always 29 hits. Or to 36 with always 24 hits. Is an interesting choice.

The latter means that player B cannot hide anymore. And has to return fire, always.

Let's see what that means in the calculated version.

***

B always returns fire. But only twice. Then the third time, it rests and takes full damage.

A=36
B1=12
B2=12
B3=12

Round 1.

A simply attacks B1 trice, while B1 returns fire the first time. I don't know at this point yet if a second return fire is usefull, or it has to be a rest. Or another B squad does a lure. Let's see.

Turn 1:
A=33, injury -0.33
B1=6, injury -0.67
B2=12
B3=12

In order to keep a maximum damage. All 3 squads should battle once. As for A, this player might spread out the first time, lets see what a spread does.

Turn 2 and 3:
A=26
B1=6, injury -0.67
B2=6, injury -0.11
B3=7, injury -0.56

2 B squads can attack once more this round:
A=23, injury -0.61
B1=6, injury -0.67
B2=6, injury -0.11
B3=7, injury -0.56

Interestingly, where the previous test showed A=36-13=23 vs B=36-10=26. We now have A=36-13=23 vs B=36-17=19.
I can end this now. Down the line, A wins because B immediately used return fire or used lure.
The difference is also bigger this time in the first round. Where we had +3 for B, we now have +4 for A.

Experience thought me that while the difference has a cumulative effect. It isn't far of when I observe it lineairly. Eventually, the first test would have ended into A=0 while B at most is 10.
And in the second test I get.
B=0 while A at most is 10.

The choice sounds balanced. But...

***

Conclusions for now.

The action point system might need a rework. It seems there isn't much of a choice after all. Only in combinations with Event Cards, another choice might be made. And I don't even know if this would be a fact.

The cover system by terrain, well, was already being reconsidered in this topic. The "feeling" that my fellow players felt. Comes from the fact that you walk a thin line with the usage of the right actions and re-actions. But more so, the "balanced" situation only occurs if the splitted player has the opportunity to have all parts working together.

Following theory, it is a yes/no situation that 2 squads can work together as 1 squad. And a yes/no/still no/nope situation that 3 squads can work together as 1 squad.

So, 1, 1.5/2 and 1.75/3 would be roughly the advantage.
Or 100%, 75% or 58% are the relative chances player B can have the advantage. This is....too low.

The chances need to be higher, but that is not possible. The only other option is to have a better cover system.

X3M
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Options?

First things first.
I forgot to include bonus. Once again. F. I really should do this in Excel. lolz....
I am too tired. But I should recalculate the whole post above. But only the portion of hiding. Since here player B already got the upper hand after round 1. This upper hand is much bigger.

Regarding actions.
If I have 1 into hiding. Another may do a lure.
Concequence is that the re-actor pays at least 1 AP. But can do 2 re-actions. Hide is free at this point. Obviously player A will attack B2 that lures, if B1 hides.

The logic is now that no other squad will apply lure. Unless a squad has more attack range that squad A.

Regarding cover.
Return fire will get full cover.
Hiding will get 1.5 times or 2 times full cover.

Ok, a quick recap then.
B1=2
B2=12
B3=12
And all get +50%.
A=15, injury -0.83

O wow...clearly the "lineair" approach here will show:
A=0 while B at most is 19.
Or with that 58% in mind, B at most is 7.

7....by hiding and attacking at the right time. But also, being in the correct formation.

Now then....if a big squad splits up into 2 or 3 parts. And we do this in the open. Each part should also get a bonus damage. But now, they have no other choice than to fight back.
Here we get A=20, injury -0.67 while B1=2 B2=2 and B3=2.
This is ridiculous bad. So, you really need to split up only for the terrain and its benefits.

I should 100% certainly boost the cover. Such that with all the tricks avaiable. We mirror the results.

This is for another time.

X3M
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Another tactic that I forgot

A can attack B1, twice and then B2 once.
B1=6, injury -0.67
B2=9, injury -0.33
B3=12

Instead of 2x12 + 2×12 + 2 = 50 projectiles.
It is now 2×12 + 2x9 + 6 = 48 projectiles.

Not much of a difference, but all the little things help A in this regard.

Seeing as how flanking is a good option. I must decide to give B a much bigger advantage for when flanking is NOT possible.

I will assume that the B squads are dealt with in the following situations:
- 1, 1 and 1.
- 1 and 2.
- 2 and 1.
- 3.

The first is most preferable for A.
The last obvious for B.
It would be great if I find a good balance in outcomes.

A wins hard, A wins, B wins, B wins hard.

I must change the hiding factors.
I thought it was logical for the 50% with return fire. But this will be 100% now.
And hiding was 100%. I must raise this to 150% or even 200%.

I don't like that the best result for B is only 7 survivors on average in total.

I will post results soon.

X3M
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Everything considered?

36 vs 3x12. They hide. Then they fight.
No bonus. 100% due to hiding. Thus 1/3 received.
36 vs 12+12+12. They return fire. Thus, bonus!. 50% due to returning fire. Thus 2/3 received.

First, B wins with a landslide. And I discovered that A has only a little advantage by flanking. Also, during the third skirmisch, the bonus is temporarely less. Not all infantry get it.
B is 17 versus A is 6? In the ends.... well.
It seems that A hardly has an advantage with the rules that I have right now to begin with.

***

Then were did the request come from???

***

Also, I should reconsider bonus for when size is different.

In the open, /4 size and x2 costs. Is well balanced for dealing with enemies 1 by 1. Without bonus.

But bonus should be applied for the squads. And logically speaking, I think size should be the parameter.

If not, clearly the normal sized squad, based on costs, gets a bonus. I am now gona focus on this. To see what happens. When I apply bonus based on:
- costs (200%)
- size (25%)
- stats (100%)

A full squad, size reduced infantry.
Costs 200 each.
Size 25 each.
Stats 100 each.

I can also consider an equal costs test.
Thus, half filled squad vs 2 normal squads.

I can consider an equal size test.
Thus, full filled squad vs 4 normal squads.

And stats is a quarter filled squad vs 1 normal squad. Which is actually like the other one.

8 tests for this.

X3M
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Terrain effects are based on size

Since we look at the size for terrain effects.
We need to look at the size for bonus as well.

This means that a smaller unit with a higher cost. Will also get bonus damage faster. In a sense, you can pay for your bonus damage this way.

This will be applied for the size of the force.
And for the size of the individual targets.

I playtested the rules once more. And made some changes to them.
Especially for the recently updated individual targets rule.
So, no need to be testing the rest. It is just as it is.

Edit:
Smaller targets are harder to hit. but I translated this into a bonus damage instead.

So, lets see what benefits a 200 costing rifleman has with size 25. compared to the normal one.

Important balance rule would be that the stats count for the overall balance. This means that you pay 7200 for a complete squad of 36. But the space they need is only 900.

Have 4 of these designs. And you can have a massive force.

The main benefit is having the need for less action points. The density is very high.

Either way. When the small guys fight the big guys. 2 bonus damages are in store for them.
900 vs 3600 is already a +50% for all of them.
Then we got the individual bonus. Where 3 out of 4 get another +50% against the big boys.

The total bonus damage would be +87.5%.
With all the rules in mind, if this was a normal design with that much more damage. They would cost 140 instead of 100. Yet you pay 200.
The fun part is that you can add much more units to that same squad. In fact, you can have 2 squads of 900. And still, all of them get the bonus.

for now, I am done with this particular topic.

X3M
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The summary. And the next test?

X3M wrote:
1. Oldest game had 33% or 67%. It was balanced.
2. Old game had 50% or 75%. Favoured the open squad.
3. New game has 25% or 50%. Favours the 3 hiding squads.

1. From a clean removal of 6 points per region.
2. We once went to obstruction points act as penalties.
A special set of weapons was designed to counter this.
3. And now I might add new rules, so that the player has no other choice than add designs that have a counter to the penalties.

Since I have to go with obstruction points. I could use the fact that each region consists of 2 primairy terrain types.

A dense forest is simply 2 forests on top of each other.

This means, that each forest provides with 2 obstruction points. And the total would be 4.

The percentages above are what happens when a squad in the dense forest would either, return fire, or, hide.
That summary was incomplete to be honest.

1. Oldest game; balanced. Obstruction works linear.
6-4=2 and 6-0.5*4=4
33% Vulnerable, 67% Protected, Hide
67% Vulnerable, 33% Protected, Return Fire

2. Old game; favours open. Obstruction works by penalty.
(5/6)^4 and (5/6)^(0.5*4)
48% Vulnerable, 52% Protected, Hide
69% Vulnerable, 31% Protected, Return Fire

3. New game; favours cover. Obstruction works by penalty.
(5/6)^8 and (5/6)^4
23% Vulnerable, 77% Protected, Hide
48% Vulnerable, 52% Protected, Return Fire

***

So, what I need to do is to have one portion of a region count twice when the situation arrises?
And, should I have the other situation have something similar?

When hiding, the terrain works for 100%. But the half in which they are hiding works as well. The player who hides can choose one or the other. But obstruction is obstruction. Thus we have 2 times the best obstruction and 1 time the worst added up. In case of 1 forest, we get to 4 points. And with 2 forests, 6 points.
As for returning fire. The player may select the best obstruction once more. Thus in case of 1 forest, 2 points, but in case of 2 forests, it is also 2 points.
What this strange effect will cause, I don't know yet. But having a small forest, would allow for a double ammount of soldiers fighting. And a dense forest is simply better to hide in?

4. Suggestion. Obstruction works by penalty.
(5/6)^(2*2+1*2) and (5/6)^(1*2+0*2)
33% Vulnerable, 67% Protected, Hide
69% Vulnerable, 31% Protected, Return Fire

Conclusion:
In case of a dense forest. Hiding works the same as the oldest version. And return fire is simply done at a later stage.

As for having just one forest. We get the following:
(5/6)^(2*2+1*0) and (5/6)^(1*2+0*2)
48% Vulnerable, 52% Protected, Hide
69% Vulnerable, 31% Protected, Return Fire

With facing a squad twice as big. The bonus damage is for 12 out of the 24 soldiers. Thus this particular squad has 30 projectiles on average (125%).
It makes sense though, you better return fire if you have no cover. Or else it is just a firing squad taking action.
As for hiding, this is less likely to be done. Even though, the casualities is cut in half while 1/3rd is missing. Interesting effect.

I like this new rule. It goes back to the well tested balanced version. And the rule is easy to be applied.
As for hiding in a rocky terrain. We have 3+3. Thus we get:
(5/6)^(2*3+1*3) and (5/6)^(1*3+0*3)
19% Vulnerable, 81% Protected, Hide
58% Vulnerable, 42% Protected, Return Fire

Those mountain crawlers are going to make a return for certain.

Next time, I should post all the special weapons regarding facing those that try to hide. And see how usefull they are. Just to make sure it is all correct.

I don't think I ever posted it. It is kinda an unique approach.

X3M
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I will remove the math

X3M wrote:

4. Suggestion. Obstruction works by penalty.
(5/6)^(2*2+1*2) and (5/6)^(1*2+0*2)
33% Vulnerable, 67% Protected, Hide
69% Vulnerable, 31% Protected, Return Fire

The big squad A(36 soldiers) takes the smaller squad B(12 soldiers each) 1 at a time.
Their best option is unknown to me. But I assume return fire.
Then I also will calculate the results for when all 3 B squads will return fire or hide instead when they all 3 can work together against A.

Made 3 little calculators.

***

Results

A flanks the B squads, thus attacks 1 B squad at a time. Meaning only 1 squad of B will fight back at a time.

A has 8 soldiers remaining with an injury of 0.33 on the last one.
This is good.

As for losses.
Battle 1: 7 losses for A. 2 turns needed.
Battle 2: 9 losses for A. 3 turns needed.
Battle 3: 12 losses for A. 5 turns needed. While B has a lower bonus to number of soldiers ratio in the first 2 turns.

A total of 10 turns are needed. This is 3.3 rounds.

Yes, perfect!!

***

A attacks all 3 B squads at the same time. The B squads return fire. During this, they receive bonus. But every 3 battles. The biggest 2 B squads will fight without a bonus.
This fights overview is over complicated for most.

But here is the result:

After 20 turns. And a lot of changes in who has the upper hand. And carefully selecting the squads that fire twice in a round, but the second time is without a bonus. I come to...

B having 2 + 2 + 1 squads remaining. I tracked injury for the 3 squads as a whole. On paper, it is much easier to track it individually. If I were to do this on Excel, I might as well do it on paper.

***

A attacks all 3 B squads at the same time. This time, the B squads will hide first. Then fire. Assuming the biggest squad can fire twice.

I left the penalty on 2, in order to see the difference.
Here I see that the injury does something strange. But I leave it be.

After 9 turns. A has 30 soldiers remaining.
I will now increase the hiding penalty to the desired 6.
And the result is:
After 36 turns, 2 B squads are still present. 5+4=9 or 9/36 survived.
Yes, during all this battling. 1 squad dies of completely. Thus reducing the number or turns that B can actually fire back by 1. With 5 AP for these squads. We had 3+1+1. But this quickly changed into 3+1 with 1 AP being lost.

***

Conclusion
8/36 for A, when flanking and B returns fire.
5/36 for B, when B returns fire and optimizes its attack.
30/36 for A, when B hides with 2 obstruction points.
9/36 for B, when B hides with 6 obstruction points.

A flanking B and B hiding. Are the best 2 options for the players. And these 2 are well balanced. If B has a bit of trouble having all 3 squads being present. B can already start with returning fire. And then move from the third spot to the front. The result will be between 5 and 9 survivors for certain. Maybe even higher.

I am happy here.

***

I am curious about the B squad of 24 soldiers hiding in a forest that supplies only 4 obstruction with hiding and 2 with returning fire.

B returns fire.
A wins with 12/36. Both sides loose 24.
Efficiency B is 100%.

B hides and has 5 AP for 2 attacks without a bonus.
A wins with 31/36. In the first round, B looses 4 instead of 6 soldiers.
Efficiency B is 38%.

What if A attacks, while B hides???
Then B fires while A returns fire??
Then A attacks, while B returns fire?
And finally B attacks while A can't do anything!
A wins with 20/36. A looses 16.
Efficiency B is 67%.

Best to return fire. But I can conclude that a full squad of 36 is equal effective than a squad of 24 in a thins forest.

I keep an eye on these as well.
Next time, I can use the same calculators to see how the special weapons can work.

A special weapon that ignores obstruction points. I have 4 variations of them. But they increase in cost, depending on the removal of obstruction points.
When facing the 0, 2, 4 or 6 obstruction points.
The ignoring points can be 0 to 6 as well. In order to see how effective they are.
More than 6 is also possible.

But the ignoring can be on target. And also on the regions in between.

***

The following (at the end) is from a personal design manual. I need to double check the costs calculations.

But the most important aspect here is that the weapon in question ignores an entire terrain. Meaning that I don't have ignoration points in this concept. The main reason would be that some weaponry should have infinite points. And I rather work with a limit. Or in other words, a lineair calculation.

The weight factor that I got to is 2. But I didn't take note how to apply it exactly. I will figure it out.

If I didn't have the entire terrain to be ignored. I would have the 5/6th for the obstruction. And thus yes/no on 16.7% is 8.3% per ignoring point.
1/12th per ignoring point is weird.
A weapon costing 300 would now costs 325.
A weapon costing 300 with 6 ignoring points would now cost 450. -33% effect against open but +100% effect against 6 obstruction points.

The reason why I don't like using ignoring points. And rather go with the terrain ignoring instead is. Arc weapons should have trouble hitting the target location. Spread weapons should not reach their location if there is terrain with obstruction in between. And seeker weapons have "fuel" that is used for a certain distance.

Only flow weapons were in the same line as my ignoring points.

For next time, I discuss the following:

There are 4 variations:
- Spread weapons, gas canister.
o Locations: Attacker and Target.
o Range: 1.
o If R=0, then the terrain ignoring range is 0.

- Arc weapons; a mini artillery.
o Locations: Between Attacker and Target.
o Range: R-2.
o If R<2, then there is no terrain ignoring.

- Flow weapons; long range flamethrowers.
o Locations: Attacker to X range.
o Range: X.

- Seeker weapons; heat seeking missiles.
o Locations: Attacker and X free choices.
o Range: Depending on range and X. See Seekers.
o If R=0, then the terrain ignoring range is 0.

X3M
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X3M wrote: There are 4

X3M wrote:

There are 4 variations:
- Spread weapons, gas canister.
o Locations: Attacker and Target.
o Range: 1.
o If R=0, then the terrain ignoring range is 0.

- Arc weapons; a mini artillery.
o Locations: Between Attacker and Target.
o Range: R-2.
o If R<2, then there is no terrain ignoring.

- Flow weapons; long range flamethrowers.
o Locations: Attacker to X range.
o Range: X.

- Seeker weapons; heat seeking missiles.
o Locations: Attacker and X free choices.
o Range: Depending on range and X. See Seekers.
o If R=0, then the terrain ignoring range is 0.


Ok, when we apply the terrain ignoring attribute. This is considered to be a weight of 2 (yes/no on 3/1). Every point, where this attribute, is applied. Should weight double.

My solution seemed to be simple. I calculate the weight of a weapon in a normal way.
Then I see what the "attack range" would be of the portion with attribute.
And calculate the weight of this portion.

The result is rather simple?

The situation
Let's assume we attack something that is hiding in a dense forest. But we also have 1 region between us that is a dense forest as well.

The region in between is always 4 obstruction points.
As for the target location, this is an additional 4 or 6 obstruction points.
We have 8 to 10 obstruction points.

Normal
Let's observe for the 4 attributes for weapons.
I shall observe 2 examples, each costing 300.
Cannon, type 250, attack range 2.
Missile, type 100, attack range 8.

With 8 or 10 obstruction points. The hitchance for both weapons are:
23% or 16%.
But the missile is also just 40% effective compared to the cannon in terms of damage due to attack range weight.
So 9% or 6%.

Well, oof.
But, you do attack from a greater distance. Thus I should not include this. The missile too is considered 23% or 16%.

The weapons are equal options here.

But what are the other options for the player?

Spread
The projectile explodes on impact and fills the space with something damaging. It could be anything, gas, napalm, nano-machines.
There were the weapon has its effect would be in either the target location. Or if the target is in the same location, the attackers location.
The attack range of 0 is 0. But if the target is not in the same location, the attack range will be 1.

This time, we will have only the 4 obstruction points in between for both weapons. But the cost that is added is as following:

Cannon is type 250, attribute attack range 1; extra cost 225.
Missile is type 100, attribute attack range 1; extra cost 90.
So their costs are now 525 and 390.

The hitchance for both weapons are:
48%.
HOWEVER..... the cost is also a factor now.
300/525 for the cannon. And 300/390 for the missile.
We get:
28% for the cannon.
37% for the missile.

Missile is the best option here.

Arc
The projectile makes a mini arc. It isn't high enough for higher terrain. But it sure can ignore the terrain type.

All locations between the attacker and target are taken into account. If the attack range is 1 or less. This attribute is simply not possible. This means we got an attack range of 0 and 6 to take into account.

Now the regions in between don't count. So we have obstruction of either 4 or 6.

The cost for the cannon is 450.
The missile will cost 540.

The missile would be able to ignore 6 regions. But for this one target, we should see the difference for certain.

Including the costs, we get:
32% or 22% for the cannon.
27% or 16% for the missile.
And the latter is completely worth it if there are many obstruction points in between. And the target still has to approach the attacker over multiple turns.

The cannon is the best option here.

Flow
A flamethrower could easily fit this category.
Not only is the region in between ignored. But also the target region. This means, this is the most expensive version of the 4.

The attack range is considered of both, from start to end.
This means that the cost is effectively 2 times that of the original.

Since we don't have any obstruction. We get the following:
Hitchance for both weapons are 100%. But...The effectivness including the costs for both weapons are:
50%.

And this is so much better than the cheap version of 23% or 16%.
Now, one might argue, the weapon costs twice as much now. So that effectivness is 50 over 23. That is slightly more than 2. But is it worth it? Then my answer will be: A balanced body and thus recalculated 25% compared to 23%. That is the maximum.

Hence, I should look into the weight factor. I am using 2. But perhaps it should be less? The true factor tops per region is 3. And I said, the weight factor should then be (1+3)/2=2. But now I see that I should change this weight factor.

Seeker
But lets add the last one first. And I don't even know if this goes correctly for the moment.

A seeker is like a flow weapon. But we can adress only a few of the regions. The calculation was balanced? But certainly odd.

The story here is that, a seeker can ignore any region at will. This means the player can choose which region to ignore.
I look at the attack range for this. But the first one weighing equal as the attack range. The second one would be that same weight minus 1.

Now, if the seeker allows for 1 region to be ignored by choice... it would be wise to have the target region. Where the hiding action would add 6 obstruction instead of 4.
We get the same percentages from the Spread.

The weight is calculated as following:
First I calculate the average range.
2 gives (2+1)/2=1.5
8 gives sum 8 /8=4.5

I then use these numbers to calculate the terrain ignoring range.

I also determine the weight of the first, second etc. option.
For 2, we have 2 and 2+1=3
And for the missile.
8 and 8+7=15

Either way, in case of the cannon.
Seeker level 1 has 2/1.5=1.333, total cost is 550.
Seeker level 2 has 3/1.5=2, total cost is 600.

In case of the missile.
Seeker level 1 has 8/4.5=1.778, total cost is 413.3.
Seeker level 2 has 15/4.5=3.333, total cost is 460.
Seeker level 8 has 36/4.5=8, total cost is 600.

Including the costs, we get the following factors:
23% or 16% for the cannon seeker level 0.
26% for the cannon seeker level 1.
50% for the cannon seeker level 2.
23% or 16% for the seeker missile level 0.
35% for the seeker missile level 1.
65% for the seeker missile level 2.
50% for the seeker missile level 8.

Note: that 26% for the cannon also means that if only 1 region is of influence, that it would be 73%. This effect we see at the seeker missile level 2. Where we see 65%. This however is only when 2 out of the 8 regions are terrain of influence. If there are more. The effectivness drops quickly. Where the 50% of level 8 missile remains. The level 2 would drop with 1 extra dense forest, down to 31%.

So far, all is good. Although I don't like the maximum terrain ignoring effect. Thus,n ext time I will reconsider the weight factor of terrain ignoring.

X3M
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How to see this attribute?

1 Region effect.

The maximum effect from obstruction is a factor 3. Meaning that incomming damage is only 1/3rd. I am not considering the action Hide here.

If the factor is 3. And we have this yes/no situation. Then the factor for no would be 1. The 50% rule indicates that the weight should be 2...
Right?

I have seen that this factor 2 is slightly to high. Because in the worst situation, the effect is a mere fraction better than the alternative. So I have a fault in my train of thought.

But what could it be?

Is the terrain present? yes/no.
Is there another yes/no situation?

IS THERE???

Perhaps... obstruction can go from 0 to 6. The average is 3. So, maybe I should take this into consideration? The average factor on the weapon would be...and I must do this right. The sum of the factors that I get from (5/6)^x with x ranging from 0 to 6. Then divided by 7.
(5/6)^3=58%. Or 1.728 as factor.
The average factor on that sum would be 1.845. Or 54%.
Either way, it really depends on the map designs as well. I hope for a 50-50 design to hold true. But practical balance is finding the sweet spots. And it is either a yes, or no, situation by strategy.

If I pick 1.8. We have 1.4 as weight factor.
If I pick 2. We have 1.5 as weight factor.
I think I pick the latter. Since we do have the Hide action. And it is not usefull at all if someone has obstuction ignoring attributes.

***

On a side note. I have also noted that some designs will never exceed that factor 2 in weight. This looks wrong to me. I think that the weight should be cumulative or something.

For example. If the weight is only a factor 1.5. Then if the effect exists twice, the weight should be 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25. Something like that. More on this later.

X3M
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No doubt

If I change the weight of the attribute of ignoring terrain. I need to change the artillery attribute and radiation attribute.
The latter is a specific weapon in my game.

But before I do that. I should make sure the balance is right for the 4 in this topic.

I guess I need to consider a weight on a level basis for all.
And each level adds 0.5 in weight. But.... each level is a yes/no situation on itself?

1 level, 0.5.
2 levels, 0.75.
3 levels, 0.875.
But, 3 levels means that the total added is 0.5+0.75+0.875=2.125
Since infinite levels is +1. Perhaps it is better to keep this linear somehow.

I will test calculating. Yes, test a calculation.
Where I start at 0.5 and take 1.0 as an end that doesn't count.

Level 1: 0.5+1-1=0.5
Level 2: 0.5+0.75+1-1=1.25
Level 3: 0.5+0.67+0.83+1-1=2
Level 4: 0.5+0.6+0.7+0.8+0.9+1-1=3.5

There should be an easier formula for this.

X3M
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My life equals ADHD sometimes

I cooked that last post while being bothered. Level 4 was actually level 5. And the increase was 0.75 per level in that one. But, it is not correct.

I cooked something on paper instead.
And would love to test it this nightshift...on paper.

The weight of terrain ignoring should increase with every level. This holds true for 3 out of the 4 variants.
As the attack range increases, the weight also increases in the basic way. Thus some terrain ignoring weapons will increase exponentially now. Which is more correct with the fact that obstruction also reduces damage in an exponential way.

I do suspect that I got the Seekers wrong. Or at least, the level 1 version of a Seeker will never exceed a weight of 1.
But a level 1 is a yes/no choice. And thus a factor 2 of the...basic. So....yeah, I think they are perfect (for now).

***

I am still pondering about changing the weight itself.
I do a +100% per region. But was considering +50% instead.
After a lot of math, I am doubting if I should do this.

The efficiency for the most basic terrain ignoring weapons would be 50% in case of +100%. And 67% in case of +50%.

Now then, I do need to observe how much a normal weapon has in efficiency. And for that, I need to see what the true result would be.

In the examples in previous posts, I used wrong numbers. I was calculating on the most common situations. I must do a more global one.

A normal weapon facing the following obstruction and its cost efficiency:
0; 100%
1; 83%
2; 69%
New; 67%
3; 58%
Average; 54%
Old; 50%
4; 48%
5; 40%
6; 33%

A +50% weight, terrain ignoring weapon of level 1, compared to normal weapons:
0; 67%=bad choice
1; 80%=bad choice
2; 96%=Anticipated
+100%; 100%
3; 115%=better choice
Average; 123%
+50%; 133%
4; 138%=better choice
5; 165%=better choice
6; 199%=better choice

A +100% weight, terrain ignoring weapon of level 1, compared to normal weapons:
0; 50%=bad choice
1; 60%=bad choice
2; 72%=bad choice
+100%; 75%
3; 86%=bad choice
Average; 92%
+50%; 100%
4; 104%=Anticipated
5; 124%=better choice
6; 149%=better choice

This list can be used for a flamethrower with attack range 0 or 1. Thus one region with obstruction.
As you can see, the +100% version made the flamethrower more usefull when there were 5 or 6 obstruction points. But the +50% one starts at 3.

This is also in anticipation of the longer attack ranges, growing exponentially. Since you get more regions in between that will offer obstruction points.

An example would be the default attack range of 2.
Where obstruction can happen twice. I will look at 3 obstruction points, which are an average but also dances in between the 2 weight versions. This means, 6 in total.
I will also look at 6 obstruction points per region, thus 12 in total.
Might as well, throw in the 3 and 9 for a more definitive look.

Since I will be observing the most expensive version, a flow type of weapon here. The weight factors will be 1.75 for the +50% and 2.5 for the +100%. This is for the weapons with an attack range of 2.

What can a normal weapon do against obstruction?
0; 100%
3; 58%
6; 33%
9; 19%
12; 11%

+50% version against obstruction? Compared to the normal weapon:
0; 57%
3; 99%
6; 171%
9; 295%
12; 509%
Ok, that is insanely efficient.

+100% version against obstruction? Compared to the normal weapon:
0; 40%
3; 69%
6; 119%
9; 206%
12; 357%

For a weapon with attack range of 2, we could choose to move in and make the distance 1. Then you can observe the 3 and 6 as opposed of 6 and 12.

As you can see, the +100% weight factor, which results in 2.5 for this weapon. Would have 2.0 in the clasic designs.

The fact that I make the cost grow exponential, is good.
The fact that I considered +50% and thus 1.75 is...very bad.

It is obvious now that the +100% was the right mindset all along. I simply need to add proper rules for the weight.

***

Now then, let's post the 4 formula's that I have so far. Keep in mind, these only work for my own game. Other wargames, you probably need other formula's.

Instead of observing what portion gets the extra weight. You simply calculate the extra weight (Wf), based on attack range (R), effective attribute range (Rf) and ignoring options (Ro).

It started complicated. But I can simplify the formula's very fast this time.

For the +50%, you take the WeightFactor and divided it by 2.
I can toy around later with this.
For now, Wf or WeightFactor, will be added to the basic calculation of a weapon.

X3M wrote:
There are 4 variations:
- Spread weapons, gas canister.
o Locations: Attacker and Target.
Rf = 1
Wf = 1

- Arc weapons; a mini artillery.
o Locations: Between Attacker and Target.
o If R<2, then there is no terrain ignoring.
Rf = R-1
Wf = (Rf²+Rf)/(2*Rf)
or (Rf+1)/2
or R/2

- Flow weapons; long range flamethrowers.
o Locations: Attacker to X range.
Rf = R
Wf = (Rf²+Rf)/(2*Rf)
or (R²+R)/(2*R)
or (R+1)/2

- Seeker weapons; heat seeking missiles.
o Locations: Attacker and X free choices.
o Range: Depending on range and X. See Seekers.
o If R=0, then the terrain ignoring range is 1.
o The level of a seeker can never exceed its terrain ignoring range.
Rf = R
L = Level of the seeker, number of terrains ignored by choice
Lf = R-L
Ro = ( ((R²+R)/2) - ((Lf²+Lf)/2) ) / ((R²+R)/2)
or 1 - (Lf²+Lf)/(R²+R)
Wf = Ro * ((Rf²+Rf)/(2*Rf) -1) +1
or (Ro * (((R+1)/2) -1)) +1

If correct. All weapons at attack range 1, give the same result with the exception of the arc.

As of how I got to the results in the quote. I will leave the intermediate steps. So I can backtrack if nessesary.

Here is the end result:

X3M wrote:

R = Attack range
Wf = Weapon factor to be added
There are 4 variations:

Spread weapons;
gas canister

- Locations: Only the target location, or 1.
Wf = 1

Arc weapons;
a mini artillery

- Locations: Attack range minus 1.
- Minimal range is 2.
Wf = R/2

Flow weapons;
long range flamethrowers

- Locations: Attack range.
Wf = R/2 +0.5

Seeker weapons;
heat seeking missiles

- Locations: Level of the seeker.
- Maximum level is the attack range; see Flow.
- If R=0; see Spread.
L = Level of the seeker
Lf = R-L
Ro = 1 - (Lf²+Lf)/(R²+R)
Wf = Ro * (R/2 -0.5) +1

X3M
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Ehm....

I just realized that I could consider the effective range only.

The effective range on a Spread...is 1.
The effective range on an Arc with attack range 2...is 1.
The effective range on Flow with attack range 1...is 1.
The effective range on Seeker with a level 1 and 1 attack range...is...you have guessed it...1.

It is just that this effective range can change, based on attack range and for the seekers, its level.

Hence you see these 2 variables comming (indirectly) back in the Wf formula's.

***

Here is the thing. The Wf, based on the effective range.
Would always follow Rf/2 +0.5. With the Seekers having one extra factor involved, a choice of where the obstruction is ignored.

Now then...there are weapons in RTS that show something insteresting.

Let's begin with a lesser Arc version. An example would be a MRLS that fires missiles, but they need some time to climb in height. If the attack range is 7. The effective range for an arc type is 6. But we could also have a variation in this. And the missiles can only climb at an attack range of 2 and have to come down already at the attack range of 6.
Yes, the effective attack range is not 7-1=6. But 7-3=4.
Positioning is very important here. You now need to keep your distance from obstruction.

Another variation would be a projectile that bounces on the ground or water. Like the grenade-disk from the diskthrowers in Tiberian Sun. They ignore terrain at a distance of 1, then 3. And land in 4. The effective range would be 2 here. Thus a Wf of 1.5.
If we compare with a seeker with level 2, where we can choose to replace 1 or 3 with the 2nd location. We get a Wf of 2.05.

Yes, a seeker with an attack range of 4 and level 2, would have the total factor of 3.05. While the disk with the same attack range would only have the total factor of 2.5.

If the weapons attack something at a distance of 2 instead. The seeker would be able to ignore all terrain now.
And the disk would be able to only ignore 1 location.
In the worst case. We have an efficiency difference of 33%*3.05/2.5=41% compared to 100%/3.05=33%. The disk still being better.

Ok, lets assume a distance of 3. Where the target and the 2nd location is obstruction.
The seeker would be able to ignore both locations.
The disk would NOT be able to ignore both locations. It has to land in the third location at the target. It can also only ignore the first location, but this is open.

11%*3.05/2.5=14%, compared to that same 33%. The seeker wins this.
Might as well use a normal weapon? 11%... No, not really. Lol

X3M
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Fun time!!! (???)

Let's see if I can find the 4+ balanced versions + the one and only... normal one?

I love considering a weapon with a value of 300.
But for this test, the attack ranges will probably be different. Or I simply create a situation. And the player needs to pick the best choice. Hmmmm....Let's fight on the Forest moon of Endor. And see what kind of weapons are good for your stormtroopers :D.

The terrain is always adding 4 obstruction points.
I guess having a base on this moon is the stupiest idea ever. Since a base would be more in the open. Thus you need to fire into the forest if anyone attacks, and you need to defend. Yikes!

All weapons on the internet are...mostly blaster based.
I guess it is time to add some old fashioned ones too then.

Blaster rifle
120 Cost
2 Attack range
83% Rebalanced efficiency
40% At 0 and 1
19% At 2

Fine then, one more weapon of the original setting;
Blaster pistol
90 Cost
1 Attack range
111% Rebalanced efficiency
54% At 0 and 1

Flamethrower
120 Cost
0 Attack range
Attribute: Spread
83% Rebalanced efficiency
83% At 0

Napalm-Flamethrower
180 Cost
1 Attack range
Attribute: Spread
56% Rebalanced efficiency
56% At 0 and 1
You can compare this one with the Blaster pistol.
As you can see, the efficiency doesn't really increase here.
This is why I looked at +50%. Only reason, honest...

High Explosive Grenade
240 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Spread
42% Rebalanced efficiency
42% At 0 and 1
20% At 2
Compare this one with the Blaster rifle.
The Rebalanced and attack range 2 efficiencies are 2 important differences.
Deceivingly efficient. While you ignore the target location. The increase in cost seems to almost outweight the effect.
Such that you only gain 5% on the hitchances for range 1 and 2. Again....+50%?

Grenade-Launcher
240 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Arc
42% Rebalanced efficiency
20% At 0 and 1
20% At 2

Ok.... I am convinced now. There is still something terribly wrong here. And I will not rest.

The Grenade-Launcher is worse than the High Explosive Grenade. Both cost 240, check. The obstruction that gets ignored is 1 for both.

Their target is at X range?
0; HEG has no obstruction, but GL has.
1; HEG has no obstruction, but GL has.
2; HEG has 1 obstruction, GL has 1 obstruction.
I just know that I calculated something similar in the past.
Should I refine my proces?

TBC

X3M
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Went back to the whiteboard

I decided to do this differently. And this must be the third or fourth time I am doing it from scratch. But I WANT the balance. And the positioning of squads seems to be much more important as I imagined before.

For all 4 I need to see, how much regions are actually of influence. For some reason, I did this wrong before. Or at least didn't consider all possibilities. I am going to add one more dimension to it.

Another note is that some weapons had a higher weight because they scored much higher at a higher distance. But considering shorter distances, showed that they really are only usefull at that higher distance. The Arc will be the best example in this.

I start with the Spread. Since this one is the simplest.
But not only that. I looked at each possible distance this time. I had the feeling I had too.
I also decided to exclude the bonus range rule, during my search.

The list is as following:
Attack range 0 has; 1 at 0.
Attack range 1 has; 1 at 0 and 1 at 1.
Attack range 2 has; 1 at 0, 1 at 1 and 1 at 2.
This list continues to expand.
The formula for the list is R+1.

And making sure that the weight is correct. I decided to have ALL formula's, end with a division by (R+1).

For Spread, this means that the result is always 1.
R=0; 1
R=1; 1
R=2; 1
R=3; 1

***

Arc

This one should also be simple. At least, after my research it looks simpler than Flow. Whilest I did Flow second in my research. Arc was supposed to be less than Flow. And it is.

To my surprise Arc showed a very familiar sequence.
Attack range 0 has; 0.
Attack range 1 has; 0.
Attack range 2 has; 0 at 0, 0 at 1 and 1 at 2. Whereas that 1 at 2 is actually the 1 in between.
Attack range 3 has; 0 at 0, 0 at 1, 1 at 2 and 2 at 3. A total of 3.

The sequence is 0, 0, 1, 3, 6, 10, 15 etc. These are the triangular numbers that start at R=2. If the attack range is 1 or 0, Arc is not possible.
I knew this. But now, the balance will shift due to the fact I need to make a formula for this. Then divide by (R+1).

((R-1)²+(R-1))/2 /(R+1)
I can simplify this into:
R(R-1) / 2(R+1)

We clearly see a difference now between Spread and Arc.
Spread at attack range 2, has 3 situations where it ignores the terrain. Arc has only...1.
Thus the weight factor at attack range 2 will be 1 for Spread and 0.333 for Arc.

R=0; 0
R=1; 0
R=2; 0.333
R=3; 0.75

***

Now on to Flow.
I thought this one would come in second in simplicity. But I was wrong.
Flow ignores all terrain, always.
Attack range 0 has; 1at0.
Attack range 1 has; 1at0 and 1at1.
Attack range 2 has; 1at0, 1at1 and 2at2.
Attack range 3 has; 1at0, 1at1, 2at2 and 3at3.

It starts at 1, 2, 4, 7 and gets R added with each step.
There is a cumulative step within. And at first I created the formula separately. But afterwards, I noticed how Flow is actually just Spread+Arc. Of course, we should notice that Arc is only allowed at attack range 2 or higher.

The formula is slightly simpler:
R/2 + 1/(R+1)

At attack range 2, we can now calculate a weight of 1.333.

R=0; 1
R=1; 1
R=2; 1.333
R=3; 1.75

Now, before I continue with Seekers. Which I have to re²search² entirely as well.
I will first go back to the Forest moon of Endor

X3M
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This test has to go right

Still assuming that we will do + 100%/Wf. But I will look into it once more. Perhaps approach this differently as well.

Blaster rifle
120 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Normal; 0
83% Rebalanced efficiency
40% At 0 and 1
19% At 2

Blaster pistol
90 Cost
1 Attack range
Attribute: Normal; 0
111% Rebalanced efficiency
54% At 0 and 1

Flamethrower
120 Cost
0 Attack range
Attribute: Spread; 1
83% Rebalanced efficiency
83% At 0

Napalm-Flamethrower
180 Cost
1 Attack range
Attribute: Spread; 1
56% Rebalanced efficiency
56% At 0 and 1
You can compare this one with the Blaster pistol.

High Explosive Grenade
240 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Spread; 1
42% Rebalanced efficiency
42% At 0 and 1
20% At 2
Compare this one with the Blaster rifle.

Grenade-Launcher
160 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Arc; 0.333
63% Rebalanced efficiency
30% At 0 and 1
30% At 2

I relived the journey, only because of that last weapon; GL.
Now it has 50% more efficiency than the HEG on open terrain.
At attack range 0 and 1, it is less effective. But at attack range 2, is is once more 50% more effective.
It is also more effective than the Blaster rifle at attack range 2.
Although I feel that +100%/Wf is too much at this point. But let's see what the first real flow weapon will look like.

Inferno Flamethrower
280 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Flow; 1.333
36% Rebalanced efficiency
36% At 0 and 1
36% At 2

And this is what I wanted to see. The IF is less usefull than the GL in open terrain. But the IF will always be 20% more efficient than the GL at any given attack range on the Forest moon of Endor.

So, what if we go to the ice planet Hoth?
A snow/ice region gives 2 obstruction points.

A weapon like the Inferno Flamethrower doesn't change here.
But the GL does.

Grenade-Launcher
63% Rebalanced efficiency
43% At 0 and 1
43% At 2

And voila, the IF is a bad choice on an Ice planet.
We also should look at the normal rifle's.

Blaster rifle
83% Rebalanced efficiency
58% At 0 and 1
40% At 2

There is actually a balance in choice between the GL and the BR at R=0, R=1 and R=2

X3M
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Seekers, once more

The factor of the freedom of choice should remain.

Which is:
L = Level of the seeker
Lf = R-L
Ro = 1 - (Lf²+Lf)/(R²+R)
Ro will be multiplied by X or something close to X.

And we also should get that if R=0 and L=1, it should equal Spread.
Thus X/(R+1)=1

And we also should get that if R=L, it should equal Flow.
Thus X/(R+1)=R/2 + 1/(R+1)

Further more, a Seeker's weight should be between Spread and Flow. Just like Arc. But, seeing it has freedom. It should be more than Arc if the number of regions ignored for Arc equals the level of the Seeker.

What do we get for X?
What should the formula be?

***

Let's see what my list looks like for all the level 1 Seekers.

Attack range 0
1 at 0
Sum 1 (locations 1)

Attack range 1
1 at 0, 1 at 1
Sum 2 (locations 2)

Attack range 2
1 at 0, 1 at 1, 1 at 2 (2 locations)
Sum 3 (locations 4)

Attack range 3
1 at 0, 1 at 1, 1 at 2 (2 locations), 1 at 3 (3 locations)
Sum 4 (locations 7)

As you can see;
- The sum follows Spread.
- The possible locations follows Flow.

While compiling this list. I realized that for each version of a choice. We need a separate weight factor of Ro.

For what is added, should be recalculated per possible attack range.
1 at 2 (2 locations): Ro = 1 - (Lf²+Lf)/(R²+R) = 1 - 2/6 = 2/3
1 at 3 (3 locations): Ro = 1 - (Lf²+Lf)/(R²+R) = 1 - 6/12 = 1/2

These Ro should be multiplied, not by 1, but by the number of locations.
We get 4/3 and 3/2
Thus the list for Seekers with level 1 so far is:
1, 2, 3.333, 4.833

A level 2 seeker for attack range 2 gets:
Ro = 1 - (Lf²+Lf)/(R²+R) = 1 - 0/6 = 1
A level 2 seeker for attack range 3 gets:
Ro = 1 - (Lf²+Lf)/(R²+R) = 1 - 2/12 = 5/6

Multiplying by the number of locations again.
2 and 2.5
Thus the list for Seekers with level 2 so far is:
1, 2, 4, 6.5

The formula that I need, is only active if I have the distance being equal or bigger than the level. Anything less, means I should follow spread.
I don't think I can really put it into a formula. There are "whatifs". Although, I can put something in Excel and calculate it.

The end result has to be divided by (R+1) again.
In case of attack range 3.
We get 1.208333 for level 1.
We get 1.625 for level 2.

These numbers are hard to work with. Luckily, my OCD is diminished. And I do rounding. I am sure that with playing around with the basic accuricy, I can get some "nice" numbers for the weapons.

For level 1, we need to multiply by 24, we get 53.
And level 2, this is only by 8 that becomes 23.

X3M
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All geared up

Although, I don't have a formula yet. I think I need to redescribe Seekers again. In my personal manual.

The Excel file calculates everything. And I got the papers ready to copy/paste into my personal manual.

As for testing the weapons now. And how effective they will be. I will put +50% next to +100%.
And test the weapons on the terrain being purely of 0 to 6 obstruction points. So, 7 tests in a row, times 2.
0=Open ground, 2=Hoth, 4=Moon of Endor and 6=maximum obstruction.

Let's begin with the default weapon.

Blaster rifle
120 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Normal; x1
83, 69, 58, 48, 40, 33, 28 At 0 and 1
83, 58, 40, 28, 19, 13, 09 At 2

Blaster pistol
90 Cost
1 Attack range
Attribute: Normal; x1
111, 93, 77, 64, 54, 45, 37 At 0 and 1

If you are stuck behind a wall of high rubble. Such that you cannot cross. Then the Blaster rifle easily outshines the Blaster pistol. With 6% hitchance to 0% hitchance.
But in open combat, and both sides within each others attack range. The Blaster pistol is a better choice by 33% more efficiency in general.

Flamethrower
90 or 120 Cost
0 Attack range
Attribute: Spread; x1.5 or x2.0
x1.5: 111, 111, 111, 111, 111, 111, 111 At 0
x2.0: 83, 83, 83, 83, 83, 83, 83 At 0

We can compare the Flamethrower to the Blaster rifle and Blaster pistol.
The Blaster pistol has an attack range of 1. This means that it can deal the damage in open terrain, before the flamethrowers get within range. The same counts for for the Blaster rifle. The Flamethrower can make use of cover though, while approaching. But on the Moon of Endor, only 1/3rd of a force can move. The counter is that the Blasters have either 54 or 19 then 40 percentage in hitchances. Once the Flamethrower gets close enough, it has 83 or at the cheaper version, 111% hitchance. At that point the Blasters have 83 or 111 as well.

I am sure you understand why I am doubting between 50% or 100% weight for the attributes. It could also be 60% or something else. I am not sure yet. But I am including 50%, just to see how some other attributes compare.

I think, it would be best to see the other variants of the Flamethrowers. And compare to the longest attack range.

Napalm-Flamethrower
135 or 180 Cost
1 Attack range
Attribute: Spread; x1.5 or x2.0
x1.5: 74, 74, 74, 74, 74, 74, 74 At 0 and 1
x2.0: 56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56 At 0 and 1

With x1.5, the turn points are at 3 obstruction for the Blaster Pistol and 1 obstruction for the Blaster Rifle.
With x2.0, the turn points are now at 4 and 3.
Meaning that x2.0 seems more realistic here. But the Blaster Pistol is leading in comparing.
So, it is either having the turn point at 3 or 4 obstruction, when pitting the 2 weapons to each other. At 2 or 3 obstruction, you go for the Blaster Pistol.

Inferno-Flamethrower
200 or 280 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Flow; x1.67 or x2.33
x1.5: 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 At 0, 1 and 2
x2.0: 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 At 0, 1 and 2

The turn point for the Blaster Ristol is now at 5 obstruction for x1.5. But the x2.0 has no turn point. The reason is mainly because the Inferno-Flamethrower has an attack range of 2. It can actually outrange the Blaster Pistol.

As for the Blaster Rifle:
3 or 5 obstruction for x1.5 or x2.0 at attack range 1.
2 or 3 obstruction for x1.5 or x2.0 at attack range 2.
Meaning that if you have to fight at a distance of 1, you can still do this on Hoth. With the x2.0 balance it is even possible on the Moon of Endor.
But when the attack range is 2, you better use the Inferno-Flamethrower. Unless it is an open map.

More weapons in the next post.

X3M
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On a side note

The weight of obstruction.

While it goes from 0 to 6.

In the linear approach. We have 6/6 + 5/6 + 4/6 + etc. /7 = 3/6 on average. Or 50%.
The exponetial approach. We have (5/6)^0 + (5/6)^1 + etc. /7 = 62%

So, 1 region "openness" goes from average 50% to average 62%.
The factor was 2. And went down to 1.62. If we consider these factors. Then it is +100% for the original design (which I might keep in). And +62% for the new design. I am taking into consideration +50% at the time being.

Perhaps I should consider +60 or +67%. Who knows.

X3M
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Grenades time!

High Explosive Grenade (HEG)
180 or 240 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Spread; x1.5 or x2.0
x1.5: 56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56 At 0 and 1
x1.5: 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22, 19 At 2
x2.0: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 At 0 and 1
x2.0: 42, 35, 29, 24, 20, 17, 14 At 2

To be compared with the Blaster Rifle
Clearly at attack range 0 or 1, you prefer the HEG when we have 3 or 4 or more obstruction points.
And when we attack at a range of 2. You prefer the HEG when 2 obstruction points are present.

Grenade Launcher (GrL)
140 or 160 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Arc; x1.167 or x1.333
x1.167: 71, 60, 50, 41, 34, 29, 24 At 0 and 1
x1.167: 71, 60, 50, 41, 34, 29, 24 At 2
x1.333: 63, 52, 43, 36, 30, 25, 21 At 0 and 1
x1.333: 63, 52, 43, 36, 30, 25, 21 At 2

Again to be compared with the Blaster Rifle, but also with the HEG this time.

When observing the +50% balance and 0 or 1 attack range:
BlR: 83, 69, 58, 48, 40, 33, 28
HEG: 56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56
GrL: 71, 60, 50, 41, 34, 29, 24
The BlR at 0, 1 and 2 obstruction, the HEG at 3 till 6 obstruction.

When observing the +50% balance and 2 attack range:
BlR: 83, 58, 40, 28, 19, 13, 09
HEG: 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22, 19
GrL: 71, 60, 50, 41, 34, 29, 24
The BlR at 0, the GrL at 1 till 6 obstruction.

When observing the +100% balance and 0 or 1 attack range:
BlR: 83, 69, 58, 48, 40, 33, 28
HEG: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42
GrL: 63, 52, 43, 36, 30, 25, 21
The BlR at 0, 1, 2 and 3 obstruction, the HEG at 4 till 6 obstruction.

When observing the +100% balance and 2 attack range:
BlR: 83, 58, 40, 28, 19, 13, 09
HEG: 42, 35, 29, 24, 20, 17, 14
GrL: 63, 52, 43, 36, 30, 25, 21
The BlR at 0 and 1 the GrL at 2 till 6 obstruction.

The number of obstructions that make the decision for the player shifts by only 1.
HEG goes from 3 to 4 if I increase the weight.
GrL goes from 1 to 2 if I increase the weight.

I got some stuff to think about now.
Atttack range 3 is also an option to test on.
But it would be nameless.

My main question still is: what should the true weight factor be? Both systems seem to be working now.

And I cannot say that having the linear system would be correct this way. Because the percentages go to 0 much faster at the highest obstruction.
different systems, different costs. I cannot have this open for debate for the players tbh.

I will keep observing the obstruction=penalty system.
Just remember, penalties are rolls of 5/6. Rolling a 6 is a fail.
Penalty 1 = 5/6
Penalty 2 = 4/6, 1 Hoth region
Penalty 4 = 3/6, 1 MoE region
Penalty 6 = 2/6, 3 Hoth regions
Penalty 10= 1/6, 5 Hoth regions

When the exponents drive themselves further appart. I will see some real Extreme choices.

X3M
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Weapon range 3? Not yet.

Here the differences are going to be really appearant. I should also include the 2 seekers going with this attack range. But first. A level 1 seeker for attack range 2.

Remember, a seeker can ignore a region, free of choice.
While the list of efficiency is based on all regions being the same. It is possible that the seeker is better than an arc or spread weapon in a more open terrain with little packets of obstruction. It would be better, since you wouldn't need to position yourself that well. A seeker can act as an arc, or as a spread. If it can act as both arc and spread, it is similar as a flow. But a tad cheaper.
The HEG is cheaper than the seeker in the following example. But the seeker is cheaper than the inferno-flamethrower.
The arc is the cheapest here.

Seeker Missile (MK1)
187 or 253 Cost
2 Attack range
Attribute: Seeker L1; x1.56 or x2.11
x1.56: 54, 54, 54, 54, 54, 54, 54 At 0 and 1
x1.56: 54, 45, 37, 31, 26, 22, 18 At 2
x2.11: 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39 At 0 and 1
x2.11: 39, 33, 27, 23, 19, 16, 13 At 2

If only 1 patch is obstruction. Then you can consider the 54 or 39% efficiency for all.

Blaster Rifle obsolete at 3 or 5 obstruction and 0 or 1 R.
But not obsolete at 2 R. Unless there is only 1 region with obstruction.
Then the Blaster Rifle is obsolete at 2 or 3 obstruction and 2 R.

Blaster Pistol obsolete at 5 or 6 obstruction and 0 or 1 R.

The 2 flamethrowers are obviously better. Untill we have targets at 1 or 2 R. Then the seeker can easily reach those and still deal a nice sum of damage if there is only 1 region in between.
On a side note. Only those who really have been reading this all. Some of you might wonder what the attack range weight factor is. Well, I have taken a H/D ratio of 3. That means that every R is +33% in weight. With that logic. If you add up the total effectivness of normal weapons in open terrain. You get that 0 R is 100%. 1R is 2x75%=150%. 2R is 3x60%=180%. But you can only hit 1 target at a time. Thinking like this is dangerous. Hence I need to pay attention with these 4 weapon attributes.

My goal is that each weapon is a best choice at a certain situation. Even 1 moment is more than enough. If one of the weapons fails. I need to look into that type more.

I also need to keep an eye on the Seekers. If one of the seekers is an option and the other is not. We have 2 weapons that will be a best choice. Because the seekers are also situation dependend.

Completion?

All weapons with attack range 2:
120-120 BlR: Blaster Rifle, normal
180-240 HEG: High Explosive Grenade, spread
140-160 GrL: Grenade Launcher, arc
200-280 Inf: Inferno-Flamethrower, flow
187-253 Se1: Seeker with 1 obstructing regions, seeker
187-253 Se2: Seeker with 2 obstructing regions, seeker

When observing the +50% balance and 0 or 1 attack range:
83, 69, 58, 48, 40, 33, 28 BlR
56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56 HEG
71, 60, 50, 41, 34, 29, 24 GrL
50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 Inf
54, 54, 54, 54, 54, 54, 54 Se1

When observing the +50% balance and 2 attack range:
83, 58, 40, 28, 19, 13, 09 BlR
56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22, 19 HEG
71, 60, 50, 41, 34, 29, 24 GrL
50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 Inf
54, 54, 54, 54, 54, 54, 54 Se1
54, 45, 37, 31, 26, 22, 18 Se2

When observing the +100% balance and 0 or 1 attack range:
83, 69, 58, 48, 40, 33, 28 BlR
42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 HEG
63, 52, 43, 36, 30, 25, 21 GrL
36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 InF
39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39 Se1

When observing the +100% balance and 2 attack range:
83, 58, 40, 28, 19, 13, 09 BlR
42, 35, 29, 24, 20, 17, 14 HEG
63, 52, 43, 36, 30, 25, 21 GrL
36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 InF
39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39 Se1
39, 33, 27, 23, 19, 16, 13 Se2

Aaaaaahhhhwwww. Succes!!!
And the fun part is....
*drum roll*
+50% and +100% weight cost for the attributes still yields similar results.

Maybe...I should consider the sum of efficiency as well. Or better, the average. And see what balance would be better. I speed up the game process by lowering the weight. But normal weapons might become rather...obsolete in certain maps.

Then, I should also consider the top damage for their best moment? And if they don't have it. I should not mention it.

When observing 0 or 1 attack range at +50% - +100%:
51-51 top; 83-83 BlR
56-42 top; 56-42 HEG
44-39 top; 00-00 GrL
50-36 top; 00-00 Inf
54-39 top; 00-00 Se1
51-41 Average game speed

When observing 2 attack range at +50% - +100%:
36-36 top; 83-83 BlR
34-26 top; 00-00 HEG
44-39 top; 60-43 GrL
50-36 top; 50-36 Inf
54-39 top; 54-39 Se1 *Se2 is not good
33-24 top; 00-00 Se2
42-33 Average game speed

+100% weight seems to increase the game duration by roughly 25%. Compared to the +50% weight. But this is on average.

As for the process of having a best choice. Depending on the map.
83, 60, 56, 54, 50 at +50%
83, 43, 42, 39, 36 at +100%
Game duration increases:
00, 40, 43, 38, 39
Well, that is roughly the square root of 2. Because 2/1.5=1.33 and 33 is lower.

Interesting for me.

X3M
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Attack Range 3

I am going to post all the attack range 3 weapons. Solely on the attributes. But also their effects for certain terrain.
Attack range 0 and 1 receive the same treatment for all.
So, what are the possible situations? Well, there seem to be 16 in total. But I give a conclusion list. So, I will sort them.

Instead of observing every attack range. I will observe every obstruction. Then I add on what attack ranges they could occur. And higher attack ranges are always possible, for the lower obstruction situations. So, at for example R=3, you still could have Obs=0. But it is better to say that Obs=0 can also occure at R=3. But for that, you use a cheaper weapon anyways. There is no use in observing that.

Normal
150 Cost
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 R=0 or 1
Obs2: 67, 46, 32, 22, 16, 11, 07 R=2
Obs3: 67, 39, 22, 13, 07, 04, 03 R=3

Spread
225 or 300 Cost
+50%
Obs0: 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44 R=0 or 1
Obs1: 44, 37, 31, 26, 21, 18, 15 R=2
Obs2: 44, 31, 21, 15, 10, 07, 05 R=3
+100%
Obs0: 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33 R=0 or 1
Obs1: 33, 28, 23, 19, 16, 13, 11 R=2
Obs2: 33, 23, 16, 11, 08, 05, 04 R=3

Arc
206.25 or 262.5 Cost
+50%
Obs1: 48, 40, 34, 28, 23, 19, 16 R=0, 1, 2 or 3
+100%
Obs1: 38, 32, 26, 22, 18, 15, 13 R=0, 1, 2 or 3

Flow
281.25-412.5 Cost
+50%
Obs1: 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 R=0, 1, 2 or 3
+100%
Obs1: 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 R=0, 1, 2 or 3

Seeker L1
240.625-331.25 Cost
+50%
Obs0: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 R=0 or 1
Obs1: 42, 35, 29, 24, 20, 17, 14 R=2
Obs2: 42, 29, 20, 14, 10, 07, 05 R=3
+100%
Obs0: 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 R=0 or 1
Obs1: 30, 25, 21, 17, 15, 12, 10 R=2
Obs2: 30, 21, 15, 10, 07, 05, 03 R=3

Seeker L2
271.875-393.75 Cost
+50%
Obs0: 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37 R=0, 1 or 2
Obs1: 37, 31, 26, 21, 18, 15, 12 R=3
+100%
Obs0: 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25 R=0, 1 or 2
Obs1: 25, 21, 18, 15, 12, 10, 09 R=3

***

In order to see what happens. I am going to distil the efficiency again. Per attack range.

+50% R=0 or 1
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 Normal
Obs0: 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44 Spread
Obs1: 48, 40, 34, 28, 23, 19, 16 Arc
Obs1: 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 Flow
Obs0: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 Seeker L1
Obs0: 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37 Seeker L2

+50% R=2
Obs2: 67, 46, 32, 22, 16, 11, 07 Normal
Obs1: 44, 37, 31, 26, 21, 18, 15 Spread
Obs1: 48, 40, 34, 28, 23, 19, 16 Arc
Obs1: 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 Flow
Obs0: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 Seeker L1
Obs1: 42, 35, 29, 24, 20, 17, 14 Seeker L1
Obs0: 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37 Seeker L2

+50% R=3
Obs3: 67, 39, 22, 13, 07, 04, 03 Normal
Obs2: 44, 31, 21, 15, 10, 07, 05 Spread
Obs1: 48, 40, 34, 28, 23, 19, 16 Arc
Obs1: 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 Flow
Obs0: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 Seeker L1
Obs1: 42, 35, 29, 24, 20, 17, 14 Seeker L1
Obs2: 42, 29, 20, 14, 10, 07, 05 Seeker L1
Obs0: 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37 Seeker L2
Obs1: 37, 31, 26, 21, 18, 15, 12 Seeker L2

+100% R=0 or 1
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 Normal
Obs0: 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33 Spread
Obs1: 38, 32, 26, 22, 18, 15, 13 Arc
Obs1: 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 Flow
Obs0: 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 Seeker L1
Obs0: 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25 Seeker L2

+100% R=2
Obs2: 67, 46, 32, 22, 16, 11, 07 Normal
Obs1: 33, 28, 23, 19, 16, 13, 11 Spread
Obs1: 38, 32, 26, 22, 18, 15, 13 Arc
Obs1: 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 Flow
Obs0: 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 Seeker L1
Obs1: 30, 25, 21, 17, 15, 12, 10 Seeker L1
Obs0: 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25 Seeker L2

+100% R=3
Obs3: 67, 39, 22, 13, 07, 04, 03 Normal
Obs2: 33, 23, 16, 11, 08, 05, 04 Spread
Obs1: 38, 32, 26, 22, 18, 15, 13 Arc
Obs1: 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 Flow
Obs0: 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 Seeker L1
Obs1: 30, 25, 21, 17, 15, 12, 10 Seeker L1
Obs2: 30, 21, 15, 10, 07, 05, 03 Seeker L1
Obs0: 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25 Seeker L2
Obs1: 25, 21, 18, 15, 12, 10, 09 Seeker L2

***

I certainly should not observe higher attack ranges like this.
I spotted that Arc has only 1 moment in all the options.
Perhaps it is a bit too expensive.
It also shows that Seekers are a much better viable option. They are cheaper than Flow. And only if they face obstruction, they are less efficient.
It also shows that they are thus better at lower attack ranges than Flow.

Surprisingly a Normal weapon upholds decently. Even at higher attack ranges and the highest balance cost for the attributes. It still has 2 moments instead of 1.
Spread also does well, and again I didn't observe Spread as in only the target location. Because, if that was the case. Then a Seeker would do very bad in comparison.

Maybe do this again. But then add the lesser obstruction types as well. And reconsider. For example. Arc always has an Obs=0 as well. Which would simply produce:
Obs0: 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48 Arc for +50%
Obs0: 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38 Arc for +100%

Other attributes have this effect as well:
Spread and Normal.
So the list is not completed yet.

X3M
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More data that counts?

Re-adjusting the lists. And correcting some data.
Flow has Obs0, not Obs1.
And basicly, obstruction is the same level of each region. But Obs means the number of these that are met. This way, you can see the difference between attributes. And hopefully the cheaper ones shine brighter.

Obstruction is only possible at the target locations. Some situations cannot occur.

We have 2^regions situations. Meaning that R0+1 has 2 situations. R2 has 4 and R3 has 8 situations. This is of influence on what should be highlighted in terms of most optimal weapon.

N or Y
+50% R=0 or 1
Obs0: 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67 Normal
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 Normal
Obs0: 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44 Spread
Obs0: 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48 Arc
Obs1: 48, 40, 34, 28, 23, 19, 16 Arc
Obs0: 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 Flow
Obs0: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 Seeker L1
Obs0: 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37 Seeker L2

Only Normal and Spread.

NN, NY, YN or YY
+50% R=2
Obs0: 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67 Normal
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 Normal
Obs2: 67, 46, 32, 22, 16, 11, 07 Normal
Obs0: 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44 Spread
Obs1: 44, 37, 31, 26, 21, 18, 15 Spread
Obs0: 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48 Arc
Obs1: 48, 40, 34, 28, 23, 19, 16 Arc
Obs0: 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 Flow
Obs0: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 Seeker L1
Obs1: 42, 35, 29, 24, 20, 17, 14 Seeker L1
Obs0: 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37 Seeker L2

Only Flow and Seeker L1 are missing.

+50% R=3
Obs0: 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67 Normal
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 Normal
Obs2: 67, 46, 32, 22, 16, 11, 07 Normal
Obs3: 67, 39, 22, 13, 07, 04, 03 Normal
Obs0: 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44 Spread
Obs1: 44, 37, 31, 26, 21, 18, 15 Spread
Obs2: 44, 31, 21, 15, 10, 07, 05 Spread
Obs0: 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48 Arc
Obs1: 48, 40, 34, 28, 23, 19, 16 Arc
Obs0: 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36 Flow
Obs0: 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 Seeker L1
Obs1: 42, 35, 29, 24, 20, 17, 14 Seeker L1
Obs2: 42, 29, 20, 14, 10, 07, 05 Seeker L1
Obs0: 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37, 37 Seeker L2
Obs1: 37, 31, 26, 21, 18, 15, 12 Seeker L2

Only one missing a moment is Seeker L1.

8, 11 and 15 profiles for the attack ranges at 0+1, 2 and 3.
It looks like that attack range 3 simply has those of the previous attack ranges. But the lesser levels are more important for when the situation happens then.

For most, this list is just a big table. And some could say that I could use this list for 2d10. Yes, you are right, it can be used that way.
But the list doubles for me for seeing what weapons are best.

The table is big. And I need to use brainlogic, not excel logic. In order to see the best options.

What I love the most about the last portion. Is that I have 4, 3, 2 then 1 options for the attributes. And the seekers themselves have 3 then 2 options. The level 3 seeker would be exactly flow in costs and efficiency.

Seeing as how Seeker L1 at attack range 3. Has no optimal moment in any of the 14 situations. I wonder about the previous list of attack range 2. I guess I do a quick redo on that one as well. In the same way. If the L1 seeker there is also not viable any more. Then I have to go back to the drawing board.

At the very least. Making my method more true to the game. I now have spotted this situation of the Seeker L1 not being the most optimal option. I knew it would happen at a certain attack range. But so soon is bad.

However....I do know that the weight might be of influence. Perhaps the +100% gives a different situation.

The +100% in weight.

R=0 or 1; N, Y
Obs0: 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67 Normal
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 Normal
Obs0: 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33 Spread
Obs0: 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38 Arc
Obs1: 38, 32, 26, 22, 18, 15, 13 Arc
Obs0: 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 Flow
Obs0: 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 Seeker L1
Obs0: 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25 Seeker L2

R=2; NN, NY, YN, YY
Obs0: 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67 Normal
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 Normal
Obs2: 67, 46, 32, 22, 16, 11, 07 Normal
Obs0: 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33 Spread
Obs1: 33, 28, 23, 19, 16, 13, 11 Spread
Obs0: 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38 Arc
Obs1: 38, 32, 26, 22, 18, 15, 13 Arc
Obs0: 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 Flow
Obs0: 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 Seeker L1
Obs1: 30, 25, 21, 17, 15, 12, 10 Seeker L1
Obs0: 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25 Seeker L2

R=3; NNN, NNY, NYN, NYY, YNN, YNY, YYN, YYY
Obs0: 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67, 67 Normal
Obs1: 67, 56, 46, 39, 32, 27, 22 Normal
Obs2: 67, 46, 32, 22, 16, 11, 07 Normal
Obs3: 67, 39, 22, 13, 07, 04, 03 Normal
Obs0: 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33 Spread
Obs1: 33, 28, 23, 19, 16, 13, 11 Spread
Obs2: 33, 23, 16, 11, 08, 05, 04 Spread
Obs0: 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38 Arc
Obs1: 38, 32, 26, 22, 18, 15, 13 Arc
Obs0: 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24 Flow
Obs0: 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 Seeker L1
Obs1: 30, 25, 21, 17, 15, 12, 10 Seeker L1
Obs2: 30, 21, 15, 10, 07, 05, 03 Seeker L1
Obs0: 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25 Seeker L2
Obs1: 25, 21, 18, 15, 12, 10, 09 Seeker L2

Strangely enough, still no 'Seeker L1' as best option. I need to think about this. Before I really change things. What more should I consider?

Also, Arc is weird. It even has an optimum with obs1.

X3M
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Joined: 10/28/2013
What am I missing?

What weapon is best when an opponent approaches 1 step at a time?

This means that R=3, then R=2, then R=1 and finally R=0 has to be considered.
The total effects should be combined.

Logically speaking, I should add up the numbers for each situation.

Situations start at R=3.
There we have:
R=3; NNN, NNY, NYN, NYY, YNN, YNY, YYN, YYY
Then we go down the road. And I need to keep the situation in check.
So, While R=3 can have 8 situations. After that, we have only 4.
Everytime we get closer, 2 situations melt into one.

For example, YNY becomes YN, then Y and finally.... N or Y.
YNN has the same list, except for that last R=3.

NNY has a different collapse. It becomes NN, N and then N or Y. The difference can be huge here as well.

Seeker L1 gains efficiency when the range collapses. But I am not sure how much it has at the end.

Overall. I will be having 16 situations. For all 16 situations, each weapon will have a unique patern of efficiency. But also an unique cumulative effect of efficiency. Not only that. But we should consider the approach ranges as well.

Meaning, that we have opponents that stay at R=3. And then opponents that stop at R=2, R=1 and finally R=0.

It will be even more complicated. I shall post an conclusion in the future.

X3M
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Joined: 10/28/2013
Calculater is set

I went for a Y-YYY map. Where the enemy needs to approach the attribute, all the way to the R=0 location. In other words, a melee unit.
Remember, there are 16 profiles for the terrain. So the next table should be produced 16 times in total....

The cumulative result for +50%:
267 207 167 140 122 109 099 Normal
178 157 141 129 121 114 109 Spread
194 162 135 112 094 078 065 Arc
142 142 142 142 142 142 142 Flow
166 147 132 121 113 107 102 SeekL1
147 141 136 132 128 125 123 SeekL2

Please do note that the accuracy of a Normal weapon at R=3, is only 2.5%. While the Flow has 35.6%.

The SeekL1 shines at R=0 or R=1. With 41.6%.
What I should do is consider the other weapons at that attack range. And be practical about it.

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