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Settling for a Rare Bad Game State

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Noah McQ
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Having bad game states is bad, and making a game wherein bad game states can occur makes me feel like a lousy game designer, or at least that my game is inadequate. When I discover that a bad game state is possible in one of my games, I feel the game is incomplete until that badness is rectified. Here's the recent example that I'm thinking about:

As I was playtesting my game, I got to a point where there was a guy standing in a hallway, blocking it impassably. The normal thing to do in this situation would be for the enemy team to kill him and move past, but he was healing himself faster than the enemy team could damage him. The normal thing in this situation would be for the enemy team to empower themselves by increasing their damage output, but there weren't any resources left for them to pick up. This made the game a guaranteed win for the first team if they just waited there for about 10 real-world minutes. That's a bad game state.

When I realized this, I wanted to correct, and the clear thing to do would be to remove the guy's ability to heal himself in that context, but doing so would necessitate giving him a replacement ability, and I didn't feel like it, so I tried a solution that I anticipated would be very little work for me: saying, "Eh, what are the odds this even happens again?" What I did not anticipate is how this would weigh on me.

I just can't get over the fact that this could and eventually will happen. If I want the game to be good, I must take out all the bad parts. I've decided that I'll go back and properly impossiblize this situation, but I was content to let it stay in my game to move forward with playtesting. In later designs, I'll be certain to encounter hiccups like this, and that's got me curious about other designers' experiences with rare, bad game states. What are some that you've found in your own games? How do you feel when you encounter them? About how rare do they have to be for you to ignore them?

questccg
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One thing I find is this...

Usually when we are talking about "Card Games" there comes this notion of creating a bunch of different cards and abilities with their own distinct stats and flavor to make a more varied game.

But here is the thing...

questccg wrote:
Most players will maximize the SAME cards as much as possible. So if the limit is three (3) of the same card per deck... Well they will use the maximum allowable limit!

Why is this important???

Because COLLECTORS want unique cards; to them duplicates are only valuable for TRADING. But to PLAYERS who enjoy "playing" the game ... They have a completely different attitude and perspective.

So if your DECK is 30 cards; 3 x 10 unique cards = 30 cards.

I'm not saying that ALL cards will be in counts of three (3); there may be some cards that are used in less frequency (like 1 or 2).

But the problem when designing ... Is to THINK(?) in this manner otherwise you may get a game that is BROKEN due to the fact that you did NOT anticipate HOW(?) the PLAYERS are going to build their DECKS.

This is a very important thing with any game that allows "Deck Construction".

Anyhow ... Just sharing my perspective of how to handle "broken" mechanics and configuration styles of a Deck.

questccg
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Another alternative

Noah McQ wrote:
...As I was playtesting my game, I got to a point where there was a guy standing in a hallway, blocking it impassably...

Maybe another possibility is to make the "hallway" larger such that other players can run by freely such that it is NOT possible to "Block it". Or add a mechanic such as JUMPING and then you can JUMP OVER this enemy which is "Blocking" the "hallway".

I personally LIKE the "Add a NEW mechanic" which resolves the action. So JUMPING could (maybe) be a viable alternative. How hard is it to IMPLEMENT such a mechanic... Most players will be like: "WTF is 'jumping' for???" And until they encounter a player BLOCKING some area... Then they learn that the "Jumping" is exactly for that purpose.

Again there are always more than one way to resolve the issue. It just requires you to be FLEXIBLE with the design and come up with the simplest solution such that there is NO WAY to "BLOCK" an opponent.

Let me know what you think!?

Cheers.

X3M
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What kind of game is it?

It depends on the game mechanics.

But if healing is overpowered, you need to nerf it.
I personally know how hard it can be to have healing being balanced without creating an unfair advantage in a "fair" way.

There are several ways to nerf an ability.

1. Keep track of what got healed. And put a cooldown on the portion that already got healed. Or allow only a 1 time healing.
2. Have the ability cost a resource of some sort. And have this cost slowly increase, everytime it gets used. "Exhaust" the repetitive behavior. Or at most, reduce the healing effect each time it is used. +5, +4, +3, +2, +1, the end of the healing.
3. Have something that counters the healing. Some sort of poison that needs to be removed first before healing can even take place?
4. Forget about removing the poison, keep healing. However, the poison that is inflicted starts to stack. -1, -2, -3, -4, -5, the end.
5. An effect that corrupts healing into damage?
6. Steal the healing.
7. Have a synergy attack that insta kills the enemy. It simply needs a couple of turns to prepare this attack?

Plenty of idea's. But it depends on the game mechanics.

questccg
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This is probably the MOST obvious solution ... But

X3M wrote:
But if healing is overpowered, you need to nerf it. I personally know how hard it can be to have healing being balanced without creating an unfair advantage in a "fair" way...

If you don't WANT to "nerf it" ... We need to know the reasoning WHY(?). As @X3M stated there are a bunch of ways (like he cited) to do so... Like making healing less effective the more it is done repeatably. Or have some kind of "timer" to wait until the next HEAL CYCLE can occur effectively "throttling" the healing.

But that requires CHANGING how "Healing" works.

This could be a tall order. Making the hallway wider or the JUMPING mechanic may be SIMPLER to implement. The "wider hallway" is a no brainer. You just ensure that there is never a way to BLOCK the other players.

The JUMPING may be simpler to ADD than CHANGING "Healing". Just JUMP and you can "step over" the opponent.

The thing is that you WANT to find as SIMPLE of a solution to ensure that you are not RE-DESIGNING everything just because of a "Bad State".

I'll wait to hear you own personal feedback. Because it's hard to push ideas and solutions without feedback from the "creator". We need to hear from you want you think(?) about the various options proposed.

This is not a "Who is right" type of banter... Just knowing what are YOUR considerations as to what you DO and DO NOT want to do.

Cheers!

larienna
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It reminds me of a 2 player

It reminds me of a 2 player hero quest game, where the barbarian was blocking the doorway and taking all the hits for the other characters.

This is called an outlier. A game situation that rarely happens, but that could happens. If it happens too much, the it becomes a dominant strategy.

Now, there can be various ways to get around this. Ask AI, it might come up with ideas we did not think about. You can either try to fix the core mechanics, to make it more solid and bullet proof to prevent other outliers you are currently not aware of. Or you can just try to patch this issue

Now I am assuming you are making a tactical board game. So solutions includes:

1. Bigger Corridors: "Dungeon Crawl" did this by using 2 spaces corridor, but I think 1 space door existed. So you could block a door.

2. Time constraint: You are forced to push forward because time is against you, there fore staying there an blocking the monster becomes a bad strategy. Maybe more reinforcement are going to come.

3. Move through: Heroes does not block enemies, that could be nasty, as the wizard in the back is not safe anymore.

4. Limited uses: All special abilities can be used a certain number of times per adventures. So that healing skill cannot be used indefinitely.

5. Push: Some enemies abilities can push heroes in a direction by ramming them. That could make them move backwards, or even fall on the floor allowing enemies to move through the hero.

6. Range attacks: You are blocking a doorway, well all monster have some thrown items like knifes that they can just throw at the blocking hero. Meaning that more than just the adjacent characters will attack the hero, possibly removing all its health at once.

7. Status effects: Monster applies nasty status effect that could make the blocking hero full of HP, but have very limited capabilities, which could make the escape from his position much more complicated when it is time to leave.

This is all I can come up with so far.

Noah McQ
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Thanks for All the Suggestions

Wow, this is a lot of ideas for my outlier. I just wanted to hear about similar situations you all have encountered in your designs, but I guess I'll explain what's going on with my game.

larienna wrote:
Bigger Corridors: "Dungeon Crawl" did this by using 2 spaces corridor, but I think 1 space door existed. So you could block a door.

questccg wrote:
Maybe another possibility is to make the "hallway" larger such that other players can run by freely

I'll probably do something like this. In my game, it's possible to break down walls to lead into other corridors, so you could break into a parallel corridor, then get back into the first corridor on the other side of the big, blocking guy, making it impossible to hold a single-space chokepoint. However, in my rare, bad example, the characters that were stuck in place happened to not have that break-down-walls ability. That ability was tied to a card, which they randomly didn't have. I'll probably remedy this by giving the characters the ability to break down walls innately, no card required. Easy peasy, probably better than nerfing the healing.

I'd still love to hear about times everyone has found a bad (but rare) game state, and what they did about it

questccg
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I had a LOGICAL issue...

Noah McQ wrote:
...I'd still love to hear about times everyone has found a bad (but rare) game state, and what they did about it...

With the addition of miniatures in "TradeWorlds", the abilities of the various Reinforcement Bonuses was NOT LOGICAL. Originally what was proposed was +1 to BOTH Attacking and Defending "Initiative Rolls".

At first glance, a +1 seems like the way to luck up and simply score one (1) BONUS point.

But when you ANALYZE it a bit... +1 is NOT good for various reasons:

#1> If Attacking and your opponent has beaten your ROLL... A +1 would do either NOTHING or even worst if could trigger a "Counter-Attack" (meaning the opponent has the upper hand). Not really a GOOD "Bonus" if you think about it.

#2> If Defending and your opponent has beaten your ROLL... A +1 would do too much in that it too could trigger a "Counter-Attack".

How is this 2nd scenario BAD??? I means that every time you BEAT a opponent's Initiative roll by ONLY +1, ALWAYS use the Defending Bonus (+1) to create the situation which is a "Counter-Attack" which is ... BAD!

***

So we made it +2 for BOTH bonuses (Offensive & Defensive). This means that at least if you are BEHIND by -1 Initiative, you can always ATTACK with +2 meaning that the end result is that you would be +1 AHEAD of the Defender making the attack succeed (by +1 or more).

The defending situation can ALSO trigger a "Counter-Attack" but only if the Attacking Player is +2 ahead of your initiative roll. But if your opponent rolls a "5" (Attacker) and you roll a "4" +2 = 6 ... You DEFEND.

***

That was the LAZY solution. We did not have the "Design Space" as a tool in our toolbox. Had we had this... I would have made a FULL AUDIT and would have been able to GENERATE MUCH better abilities than the ones we used for that "bonus" Module (which was using miniatures or tokens).

We were "Fresh Out-Of-Ideas" when we thought about those ABILITIES. Again a FULL AUDIT using the "Design Space" Methodology or Process would have probably yielded much more interesting outcomes.

But hey, you do with what you know and can do. You can't be expected to know that Wizards of the Coast (WotC) created the "Design Space" for ABILITIES and allowing more comprehensive options to the game you have. And sometimes, just adding one (1) more mechanic can yield a TON of new cards. Like WotC does.

Maybe nowadays as I slowly work on my "Mystery Game" ... I can employ the AUDIT to see what is available and then I've had to ADD more elements because the design is much too SIMPLE (not enough meat for the AUDIT...) Anyhow that is another kind of PROBLEM!

So sometimes they are "Lousy Solutions" and other times "Too Simple" is the design. And doing an AUDIT only to figure out the game needs to be RE-DESIGNED is hard too... Because AUDIT requires sufficient elements and when you don't have that... You see that you need to ADD more to the game ... IF you want to use the "Design Space" principle (Methodology/Process).

Best!

questccg
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Nowadays I would THINK(!) differently...

The whole ROLL the "Initiative Dice" was a way to MITIGATE the "Determinism" with a factor which involved RISK and a bit of luck. Look at it this way:

questccg wrote:
If you have the STATS to defeat an opponent's starship(s) what would force you to STOP and give the defending player a chance to "survive"?

Pure "Determinism" is BAD. But some people HATE the "Initiative Roll"... If I had to RE-DESIGN the game, I would do something different. Maybe something along the lines of "Choose" to BOOST a "STAT" (Firepower or Resistance).

This kind of rolling would be LUCK-BASED due to the use of the Dice but it would yield a bonus for only ONE (1) Starship.

So If you have a 2/3 attacking a 4/1 the defender can add +2 (say he rolled a 2) to his "Resistance" making him a 4/3... And then the attacker rolls a 1 ... meaning +1... You would get 3/3 vs. 4/3 ... Both Starships get destroyed (Ties BOTH players die).

***

That sort of "system" of BONUSES would have been BETTER. But hey, you learn as you design and that's the reason I'm still working on my designs; hopefully to make a BETTER "game" than what I've done before.

It also would feel less "manual" and decisive and there would be no need for a "Counter-Attack" ... It would kind of happen naturally with Mutual Self-Destruction of certain Starships.

Anyways I'm sure you understand what I am trying to explain!

Sincerely.

X3M
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Charging weapons

You know, the ones that go hhhhmmmmmmMMMMMMMZZZZZZ PEW!!

We got these weapons that need time to "warm up".
Since it costs turns, it grows exponentially.
In the most extreme case, the damage goes up by a factor of 5 in 1 round.
But it always gets the job done. Even the most extreme case of something blocking the path.

So perhaps you can have a weapon/magic that can charge up over multiple turns or even rounds in order to fire.

hhhhmmmmmmMMMMMMMZZZZZZ PEW!!

Biggle Bear
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I had a card game prototype.

I had a card game prototype. Some cards score points at the end. Others allowed players to exchange cards in their hand (via various methods).

This one playtest one player started only with no cards that allowed him to swap. Another player spent 10 minutes swapping out a single card. They made it fun, but was bad design.

I Miss them guys.

Biggle Bear
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I don’t know if it works with

I don’t know if it works with your game but when I read it my thought was “what if dealing damage wasn’t the only thing one could do”, like succeeding in combat allows one to deal damage or knock the opponent prone or push back.

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