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Prince, Pawn, or Con - A Simple Dice Game

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 18:03 — UncleDragon
Prince, Pawn, or Con - Die Face

Yesterday, I read a forum request on the geek for Dice Game submissions for a publisher. Specifically they were asking for 'Push you luck' type games, so this wouldn't qualify, but this is what I thought up when I started asking myself what kind of a dice game I would design.

Limitations:
-Only Dice Preferred, though may use a scoring pad or other simple item.
-Custom Dice Faces a strong plus.

With those guidelines the following idea was born.
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Prince, Pawn or Con

Game uses 3d6 (see image)
A chess king, and a chess pawn.
-Or, for added fun a Burger King Crown may be used as well as another cap for the pawn instead.

Game Play:
Youngest player goes first. Play then continues clockwise.

On a players turn, they roll all three dice, a player may, if they choose, re-roll any pawns one time per turn.

If the end roll is not 3 of a kind, nothing happens.
If 3 Crowns were rolled, that player is crowned the Prince, that player takes the chess king, or wears the crown.
If 3 Pawns were rolled, that player becomes the Pawn. That player takes the chess pawn, or wears the less royal cap of choice.
If 3 Cons were rolled, that player becomes the Con, and the game ends.

Winner is determined as follows:
-The Con wins, if there was no Prince, or Pawn.
-The Pawn wins if the player who was the Prince also was the Con. Or if there was no Prince.
-The Prince wins once any other player is the Con, and if their is no Pawn than the Prince wins even if the Prince is also the Con.
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That's the game so far, if anyone want's to give it a go, I would love to hear what you think. In the mean time I'll go thrift me a few sets of Yahtzee Jr. So I can make some custom dice of my own and play test it with some local families.

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 19:12 — UncleDragon

Pawn Edit

After playing this past weekend, I felt like the Pawn could use a bit more something. Also there were a few games that didn't end soon enough.

In an effort to buff the Pawn, I am going to update the rules as follows:

OLD:
If 3 Pawns were rolled, that player becomes the Pawn. That player takes the chess pawn, or wears the less royal cap of choice.

NEW:
If 3 Pawns are rolled, that player WINS.

I am hoping this will add a bit of tension, the current crowned prince can still lose on a single roll. Even though the odd's are very low that it will happen. Single and Double pawns can still be rerolled as well.

Thematically thinking, it may make more sense to change the roll of Pawns and Cons now, so if Pawns are rolled before a Prince is rolled then the Pawn successfully takes the throne. (Pawns 2 sides like Cons are now.) Cons can be rerolled, and if 3 Cons are rolled than the current Prince is cheated out of victory. Prince remains the same, and the game ends when 3 Pawns are rolled, or 3 Cons.

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 21:35 — Impudent Mortal

More playtesting!

UncleDragon wrote:
Also there were a few games that didn't end soon enough.

I had one of those last night; went over 80 turns before the Con came up. The upside is that there was a natural Pawn! My first! The Pawn ended up winning.

UncleDragon wrote:
If 3 Pawns are rolled, that player WINS.

Makes sense since usually the highest odds are the biggest payoffs.

UncleDragon wrote:
Thematically thinking, it may make more sense to change the roll of Pawns and Cons now...

I'm not sure if that's true only because they are effectively the same. Both end the game and decide the winner. The only real difference is that the Con roll is conditional and the Pawn roll is absolute.
On the other hand, if you mean changing their thematic role to make more sense in the context of the mechanic then yes that's feasible.

I bought some (more) blank dice today along with some stickers to playtest the 2x2x2 dice format.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 02:36 — Impudent Mortal

Other dice you could use

While thriftin' keep in mind that standard HeroQuest dice will work too since they are already marked in the pattern this game requires. Not as cool as custom faces on YJr dice, but if HQ is all you can find, grab it.

For anyone else wanting to playtest this with HQ dice, Red Skulls = Prince, Blue Shields = Con, and the blank or other face = Pawn.

I like the simplicity of this game. I've been going over it in my head and want to test it out for feel. With the possible frequency of various rolls in mind, it could take awhile to play a game. Mathematically speaking, a Prince will come up about once every eight rolls, a Con once about every 28, and a Pawn once about every 216 (all this does NOT take into account the re-rolling of "loose" pawns). As the game stands the Prince should change hands about 3 times before the Con comes up. So a game will be about 28 turns long, but since the game is just picking up and rolling dice I imagine this could go pretty fast.

The inclusion of the Pawn is a neat twist but happens so rarely (about once in every 8 games). I like it because it keeps the game from being straight-up "musical chairs". Personally, I want the Pawn in play more often [he says, without a single roll of the dice yet]. The option to re-roll loose pawns might be the make-or-break factor,

I am going to test the game as written tonight with some thrift store HQ dice and report back.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 11:32 — UncleDragon

You're Right! Thanks

Disappointed that my thrift run last night came up empty...(I always see Yahtzee Jr.'s now I know to keep them on hand before I need/want them)

So, Thank you, you are right on, HeroQuest, and HeroScape dice would both work, and I have a bunch of those. I did make the dice in my phone app, but that was really only good for solo playtesting. (I already tweeked the face distribution a little before posting the journal) There is just something about passing/rolling real dice that would get lost if it was passing a phone around the table.

Can't wait to hear what you think, thank you in advance for your time. I agree that I might like the pawns to play more of a roll (bad pun intended). I'm brainstorming a bit, at the same time it's important to me to keep the game simple.

I have thought that the Pawn may also win if the Pawn rolls the Con, and maintain that upon rolling 3 Pawns, that player would become the Pawn AND opt to roll all 3 dice again keeping with the same re-roll rule. I'll give it a go both with and with out this rule tweek and see how it fits.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 15:01 — Impudent Mortal

Playtesting thoughts

UncleDragon wrote:
...it's important to me to keep the game simple

I agree wholeheartedly. It's what makes the game great.

Last night I played about 32 four player games. Lost count after about the 26th. In all those games, no player became the Pawn. This is not surprising and is within standard deviation.

I had two games in which Player 1 won the game on his first turn; once by coming out with Con, Con, Pawn and then re-rolling the Pawn to complete the Con, and once by rolling Con, Con, Con first time.

In all the games, I only had 6 in which the Con won. The game was mostly about getting the Prince before the Con shows up. The re-rolling of loose pawns makes the game. The re-rolling allows for more action on the Prince; I had one game where the Prince changed hands 7 consecutive turns, and one game where the Prince changed hands 11 times total before the Con was rolled.

The great strategic aspect of the game revolves around the Con, Con, Pawn (CCP) roll. Whether or not a player decides to re-roll that Pawn depends on the status of other players. For example, if a player rolls CCP when there is no Prince, the correct play choice is to re-roll. If there IS a Prince, the correct play is NOT to re-roll, unless the player rolling CCP is already Prince and there's no Pawn. And that's just the beginning!

After some consideration, I thought that one way you could up the odds for the Pawn would be to allow a re-roll of the odd die if Pawn, Pawn, X was rolled. I didn't test this, but it should allow for an attempt at PPP about once every 36 rolls, but only 17% of those attempts will result in PPP. The odds are better, but I don't know if that will put the Pawn into play in a more practical manner. Can always try it.

I found a couple things in play that might need to be addressed. First is the Double Prince. It's possible (and it happened to me 4 or 5 times) that a player who is already the Prince to roll another Prince. Not a big deal really since the game can go on with no effect. This is a place where advanced rules could be introduced, but it takes away from the simplicity of the game.

The second addressable point is the possibility of the Prince, Pawn, and Con all being the same player. The odds are pretty slim and it never happened to me, but it is possible. The question becomes, who wins? Or is it a 'push' and the game continues as if the Con wasn't rolled?

While playing, I thought of an aspect that could be added in a social gambling type of way. Players start with a handful of candies, peanuts, pretzels or whatever. Before the game starts all players ante one unit. Game play continues as before, but whenever a Prince is rolled all players ante again. Winner gets pot.

My subjective opinion is that this game is awesome. Slick, simple and playable anywhere.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 16:36 — UncleDragon

Impudent Mortal wrote:After

Impudent Mortal wrote:
After some consideration, I thought that one way you could up the odds for the Pawn would be to allow a re-roll of the odd die if Pawn, Pawn, X was rolled. I didn't test this, but it should allow for an attempt at PPP about once every 36 rolls, but only 17% of those attempts will result in PPP. The odds are better, but I don't know if that will put the Pawn into play in a more practical manner. Can always try it.

Thank you for the time you took to play test, and to give such excellent feedback. You have been very helpful.

I like the idea you mention above, I will have to try it. There are a few ways to work the Reroll that could help the Pawn be more active in the game play.

Another option would be a x2 per symbol distribution on the dice. That's how I had it originally but found that there wasn't enough Prince swapping. However that was before I added the reroll in the system. By changing the die faces but keeping the rules as is, the Pawn may become much more a part of the game.

So many things to try, what fun.

Thank you again for your time, effort, and input.

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 21:08 — EdWedig

It's an interesting idea.

It's an interesting idea. Could you explain how a player could be both the Prince and the Con?

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 23:35 — UncleDragon

Thank you for your interest.

A player could be both the Prince and the Con, if the player rolled three crowns, then the dice made their way around to the player again without any other player becoming the Prince. If the player who is then the Prince rolls three Con's then that player will be both the Prince and the Con.

It's a long shot, for the Pawn to win, but the hope is that every now and again it will provide a fun upset.

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 18:08 — TLEberle

Interesting idea. Do you

Interesting idea. Do you recall which publisher was seeking ideas?

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 18:10 — UncleDragon

Answer:

The Publisher was Indie Boards and Cards.

Here's the bgg forum thread:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/815913/indie-boards-and-cards-is-looking...

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