Well I know it's been since November 2025 that I've mentioned Dual Dice (DD) and what has been going with that product.
After much debate and discussions, we are interested in re-shaping the experience due to our limited MOQ of product. Specifically we are talking again about the packaging (or lack there of...) and what it would be as cost to do so.
We are also discussing the amount of product too. In that vein, we feel that the early bird pricing attracted enough people to fund the product but not enough to make a larger order (in the future).
Which leads me to think that although the product was good for the reasons of getting the dice FIRST there was a cost involved in SHIPPING which dramatically increased the cost to buy. Furthermore with 30% tariffs for this product made in China ... Led to even tighter margins and we are lucky that we managed to make a few bucks all the while propagating the product globally.
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So what are we talking about now? And what is the situation today??
With much discussion, the perceived VALUE of the product was low due to its lack luster presentation (no box) and the quantity of product for the price. And so we did an exercise to see what would work going forwards IF we planned to demonstrate the product. And we've come to some conclusions and they go a bit like this:
So the price product goes up by $5 CAD but you get double the dice. Furthermore we are examining packaging and we would be selling to a distributor via a custom box that just spells FANCY and PREMIUM...
Plus in-store there is a 15% consumer tax which means these dice would cost $28.75 CAD (or under $30 dollars). That $30 buck marker is important and we feel more would dissuade consumers from buying the product.
Why four (4) dice??? That's a good question, for one, more dice increases the perceived value (ROI) that the consumer gets more bang for his buck. And the two (2) Black and two (2) White complement each other well and allow for the extended dice rolls of 1 Black & 1 White dice possible for 2-Players.
We are TRYING to give the best possible deal while NOT pricing ourselves outside the market. Yes two (2) Dual Dice for $40 CAD ($20 product and $20 shipping) was pricey. And since we will save on shipping, it's a more reasonable ask ($25 CAD) for retail.
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Feel free to comment and ask questions if you have any. We are still in the process of evaluating this direction. I've prepared the Illustrator file for the cuts and packaging size and TBH I am very satisfied with adding more value to local consumers who visit and buy at local game stores (FLGSs).
The Kickstarter demonstrated that people are interested... But the ASK was too high for larger volume of orders. And currently since we want to entice people to have a look at the contents of those small boxes, well it's apparent that we need to move forwards with this and see how it goes.
Cheers all!
Comments
External input...
I had a colleague of mine take a look at the "Box Samples" (JPEGs) which show a bunch of different sizes and colors. And surprising enough, he chose something that wasn't even on my radar TBH! *LOL*
His thinking was that he pictured something thin and sleek rather than a boring square box. I'll have to admit he did get me thinking and I did a couple sample boxes in different sizes and finally decided on ONE particular design.
Now comes my dilemma:
Not sure which to buy. I will continue to ponder this DIFFICULT choice.
Cheers!
More thoughts to ponder about...
Well I had an issue with the Color and I've made a decision:
I also realize that 500 boxes is a LOT for one order. We'll have to wait and see what they quote me for this Custom Box & Insert and the Glossy Logo too... I still will think about the QUANTITY. Like I said 500 boxes is a LOT! It's not a question of MONEY, it's more a question of NO WASTE. So we'll have to wait and see. I don't want to be left with TOO MANY boxes and nobody to sell them to.
I will follow-up with more information and details as the come available.
Cheers.
Looks like...
I will need to WAIT until the end of February before being able to move forwards. As it stands most businesses are on holidays for Chinese New Year. And that means some of the sourcing businesses are already closed. For example the box manufacturer said her "Foam Insert Company" that they deal with are already closed for the holidays. So she cannot get me a completed quote.
The good thing is that it's only 9 days... And they should be back to work from the 23 February and probably somewhere in that week I will get my quote.
I've also looked at Canadian companies that do boxes ... We'll see how much they quote TBH. I asked for 3 quotes: 100, 200 and 300 units.
We'll see what the pricing looks like and the overall quality of the product...
Keep you all in the loop as things move forwards.
Best!
Been shopping around and...
It's amazing that a couple companies produce the EXACT SAME boxes and the ones that I am interested from China. They are significantly more expensive (obviously) but offer the SAME "stock" boxes that the Chinese Manufacturer sells for 100 units. The Manufacturer says that a custom LOGO for 100 units is possible but customization such as size and insert means bumping up the production of 500 as the MOQ.
So at this point, I'm taking a break from "Dual Dice" and will finish up my "Quest AC" rulesheet in French and then prepare the bilingual instructions with the larger box (90 Cards) for each rulesheet (English & French).
We'll see how that goes and I should have the price of the NEWER prototype with the extra size for the 2 rulesheets.
Cheers all.
China is our "friend"...
I know I may get some SLACK for saying that... But I was encouraged to "explore" local companies that make packaging here in Canada. The argument being that I could support LOCAL businesses in the "manufacturing" section... Specifically the ones who make local packaging.
So after a quick review and check on prices... The Canadian Manufactures, SOME of them deal with the Chinese Manufacturer that I have been in contact. What does that mean??? It means that some Canadian Packaging Businesses profit from what the Chinese are making.
Then comes the argument saying that the Chinese are taking control of the market when in reality the Chinese businesses (or manufacturers) only get about 20% of the market share meaning that 80% of the MSRP goes to LOCAL businesses like the FLGSs and the LOCAL distributors.
So yes the Chinese make some money on the transactions. But this does NOT prevent the Canadian businesses importing from them and therefore the division of the pie is respectful to LOCAL and import businesses too.
It does NOT seem like local Canadian businesses can COMPETE when it comes to the "manufacturing" aspect of the product. Where we see a big difference is in terms of shipping costs: shipping from China could be DOUBLE the cost of the product so 100% markup just on shipping ALONE.
Again we'll have to wait until the end of the month to see and determine how much the custom product packaging costs from China. Again we shall see...
Keep you all informed as I get information and piece together a plan...
Sincerely.
Hoping to get news this WEEK!
I'm still waiting for news concerning the PRICING of the "Packaging". I was told to expect news by Friday (27 February 2026) and am therefore patient knowing that in time the answers to my questions will be revealed.
The contact has already given me positive on the Spot Gloss Logo on the packaging and therefore that's one big concern out of the way. The second the Foam Insert has also been confirmed that this is do-able ... But we'll see what the price looks like for both and the custom sized box.
We shall see. I'm excited but being patient since the quote was asked for on the 10 February 2026 right at the same time as Chinese New Year. So I was warned that it could take a couple of weeks before getting a quote.
So soon... Keep you all informed! Cheers.
The manufacturer has confirmed that the Packaging is DO-ABLE!
But I still don't have a quote based on COST and Quantity. I have also determined that IF I WANT to sell ONLINE, I CAN. There is a 17.5% Tariff for the dice... But that's okay because the consumer is paying the FULL Price to me. Meaning I am the store and take 100% of the profit.
Obviously this means 10% fees and the 17.5% tariffs, but at $20 USD , I lose like $3.50 USD and make $17.50 USD. Which again is GOOD. Selling DIRECT is NOT a problem. Where it becomes a problem is selling to STORES in the USA and/or a Distributor in the states... The percentage is already like 60% off the MSRP.
That leaves me very little room and the tariffs are choking the profits. So the USA Stores are NOT at all attractive to sell to. Direct to USA consumers is GOOD but not to USA Stores or Distributors.
Selling to Canadian Distributors is OKAY. But I'm not there quite yet. I am waiting to know the price of the Packaging and how much that is going to cost. From there I'll know if this next phase is FEASIBLE or not.
Sincerely.
Got a finalized QUOTE and ...
I'm Super excited. I was feeling a bit "down" a few days ago... I didn't think the project for the Packaging was going to work-out (so-to-speak). The initial quote was HIGH and I understood correctly that this was due to some added components and manual process had significantly "jacked" the price and the per unit cost was a bit high... Well actually VERY high.
I asked for a correction and got a lowered price point. But it still felt a bit HIGH. So I asked for a quote on shipping and got a real good price on shipping.
This shipping, processing and manufacturing came out to just below my BUDGET for the Packaging. We're talking about counting every nickel & dime. I'm super PLEASED that from the current situation the cost of the Packaging is FEASIBLE.
And that's super GREAT since I really do want this project to MATERIALIZE.
I didn't want to have to report that the project was a bummer and not being feasible ... Would put an END to this project and the future of the Dice would be rather UNCERTAIN.
Why?
Well it's because I've realized that for STORES, you need nicer Packaging. Tiny Baggies with a Label is NOT going to cut it. Especially if this is a PREMIUM product for the consumer market (in retail stores).
As pure EYE CANDY the Packaging makes for an attractive purchase. Be it a gift for a D&D Gamer or someone who ENJOYS playing Board Games or even a Dice aficionado ... I've got personally about 25 Dice sets in my apartment and that's because I'm a Game Designer. Some are polyhedral, some are D6 Blocks, some are mini D6 Blocks and some are specialty Dice (AKO, Fate, etc.)
So I realize that the PACKAGING is very important ... Especially if I want to sell to STORES in my area of residence.
We'll see NEXT week how things pan out. I've got a busy week... With 3 appointments and sh!t ... It's SNOWING AGAIN! Fnck... I thought that it was going to be the end of the snow. Another 10 Centimeters. More shoveling on Sunday when the snow stops falling.
I'll let you know how things progress. For now I'm HAPPY things will look to be moving FORWARDS! Fantastic. But we'll need to WAIT and CONFIRM in the next week...
Cheers.
Sent the request for an Order...
They are checking the price of SHIPPING via DAP service (Door-to-door) via FedEx.
The previous price of $153 USD was reasonable and within budget. We'll see what they quote me TODAY because of the instability in the Middle East with the present WAR between the USA and Iran ... Which looks to be settling soon TBD.
Because of the uncertainty the cost of shipping is "variable". They want to quote me later for shipping and make the product first. I told them I need an amount for shipping that works for my BUDGET.
I don't want to PAY for product and be STUCK later at their "whatever" price quote or cost of shipping they may want at a later time. Like my Ex-Boss says... Buy now ... Because everything is going to go up LATER.
Hehehe... Smart Boss!
Well I pulled the "trigger" on the ORDER...
So things are now moving forwards and we should have our CUSTOM Boxes in about 30 days! The overall price point that I am looking at for selling to stores in my area is $25 CAD MSRP for 4x Dual Dice (2 Ebony and 2 Ivory).
Direct my pitch is going to be $12.50 x 4 units = $50 CAD per sale. That gives me just a bit of more breathing room and I will visit some stores to ask them what they think and if they are willing to carry "Dual Dice" (DD).
If I manage to get some kind of distribution deal, the price looks a bit different even though the MSRP will still be $25 CAD for DD. But the Retailer gets 40% and the distributor makes 20% and I get 40% but only make 20% as 20% is cost to make the dice and the packaging. So $5.00 CAD Landed to make, leaving me with $5.00 CAD profit, the Distributor also make $5.00 CAD and the retailer ends up with $10.00 CAD profit per box.
I don't see any advantage to BUNDLE DD sets with a Distributor... Basically you buy whatever you WANT (the stores I mean not consumers).
We'll see. I'm being HONEST and upfront about everything and the LOCAL scene does appeal to me... Provided they WANT to buy and SELL dice. We shall see how things move forwards.
TBD. One step at a time! Cheers all.
I may need to BUMP UP the MSRP price...
With the addition of Brokerage and Port Fees... I believe that the UNIT cost of the product will be closer to $6.00 CAD. Applying a five times multiplier (5x), the MSRP is then $30.00 CAD.
Again the options to sell DIRECT are still on the table. At 50% markup, that means that the wholesale price is $15.00 CAD. Less the cost of $6.00 CAD to make and ship ... Leaves me with $9.00 CAD profit. That's pretty reasonable.
In terms of dealing with a Distributor the MSRP would remain at $30.00 CAD but the store would make 40% (or $12.00 CAD), the distributor 20% (or $6.00 CAD) and that would leave me with 20% Landed (or $6.00 CAD) leaving me with $6.00 CAD profitability. It's less than DIRECT but the benefit is more stores who are willing to buy.
So all of this is TENTATIVE. I'm respecting the Industry Markup and a multiplier (5x) is just what is STANDARD in Board Gaming. We shall see how thing progress and the final LANDED cost of the boxes... TBD.
Sincerely.
In the name of psychology...
I think the MSRP will be $29.95 CAD and sold locally means no extra money for "shipping" since it is local (meaning proximate to my area of residence) within an hour or so of driving. I say this because it takes like 45 minutes to travel from the Southern area of the Island to let's say the West Island. Or in the other way further East.
I'm pleased with this "insignificant" realization. From a psychological perspective it's UNDER $30 CAD. Which is what I am going for. As explained in my previous comment... The Landed COST of everything is closer to $6 CAD than it is $5 CAD... So using the Industry Standard five times (5x) multiplier brings the MSRP to $30 CAD...
Less a nickel... Makes it $29.95 CAD... Hehehe. See where I'm going with this?
Cheers!
I forgot about LOCAL taxes on consumer purchases...
So while I LIKE the $29.95 CAD price point which is a 5x Multiplier for the Cost of Landed Goods. I forgot that LOCALLY sales require GST + PST taxes.
$29.95 + 15% = $34.45 CAD
That for LOCAL stores only.
For online sales the price is $22 USD + $15 USD shipping = $37 USD or $50 CAD!
So cheaper to buy it In-Store ... But available everywhere at about $50 CAD via our webstore.
We'll have to wait and see to confirm. Once I have the product in-hand. There is nothing I can do about shipping costs as they are pretty much required.
Respectfully.
Had another discussion with my contact and...
There was a issue with regards to the SIZE of the "packaging". The reasons this was is because each BOX adds 2mm of thickness to each LAYER. So it the FOAM INSERT is 30mm, the INNER BOX is 34mm and the OUTER BOX is 38mm. At first I was a bit apprehensive because that I did not UNDERSTAND why the extra thickness and how the design had been changed.
I was also shown the "Spot Gloss Black" coloring of the "Dual Dice" (DD) Logo. It looks pretty nice TBH! My contact shared with me a packaging example which actually looks AMAZING!
The box can be opened in either DIRECTION due to the NATURE of the DD logo (but it is designed to open from one end). We settled that matter too.
I am very impressed with the Customer Service for the company. The sales agent is great and very understanding. She managed to clear up the confusion I was having ... I was unaware that the thickness of the boxes was 2mm and at each layer I needed to add 4mm... So 8mm (2x 4mm) and 4mm (2x 2mm). It's a bit confusing when you think about it. But it's more apparent when the sales agent explained it.
I've never made this kind of PACKAGING... So I was unaware of the TOLERANCES that are required to nest the "boxes".
This week they will be working on a SAMPLE and she will show me the end result. Because this is the first time doing business together... So they will work towards a sample. She offered me some options too: like Black or White inside the box. I chose Black because of the Black Foam ... I was wondering about that too and the agent said Black or White are the two (2) choices. So PRO on them and I chose Black.
Amazing customer service... Even if I wondered WTF was going on with the Design of the Packaging. So now I know... And hopefully the sample will be cool and look exactly as I might hope!
We'll see some time next week.
Cheers all.
The packaging is FINALLY completed 100%!
And I've been discussing with the Manufacturer about the cost of shipping and the various options regarding duties and local taxes. I had to pay another $80 USD to cover the increase in SIZE and volume of the cartons... I asked if they could send 2 Boxes instead of only 1... And she said she would expect it to COST more money.
I'm just not sure IF I can LIFT an 18kg carton TBH. We'll have to WAIT and SEE. And I can MAYBE pick it up at the Head Office rather than delivering the box to my front door. We'll see... I will need to contact FedEx for that information.
Also PayPal is sucking cr@p these days: the invoice was in USD and they prompt me to use my PayPal Account because it has a USD balance. They didn't even ASK me to use my Credit Card if the amount was in CAD dollars. They just instead used my USD Balance and charged me for CURRENCY CONVERSION...
WTF IF the amount was in CAD, I would have used my Credit Card (which is in CAD). They never ASKED ME! Fnckers are going to hear from me soon enough!
People are robbing people BLIND. Sure pay with PayPal... That 3% + $0.50 + 2.99% Credit Card Fees ... Which is like 8% in fees... Ridiculous. Totally.
We'll see what all this sh!t is going on.
I will be in contact with them soon enough.
At least the packaging is going to ship soon. In 6 to 12 Business Days delivery time. We shall see!
Update on PayPal and the Trump Tariffs!...
So I called PayPal yesterday and spoke to a representative and after some discussion (what was the issue), I managed to get them to understand that their payment processing was "buggy". Why? How? Well basically when I paid the invoice for the balance of shipping which was $80 USD, all my communications online and emails the cost was in USD.
PayPal processed the transaction in CAD (Canadian Dollars) and I had no CAD Balance. So they had taken the USD and CONVERTED it to CAD.
As I explained to the representative, IF the amount would have been in CAD, I would have used my CAD Credit Card on-file. But everything was showing USD and therefore I EXPECTED it to use my USD Funds to pay for the invoice.
After some back-and-forth, I was told I could get a CREDIT. And we agreed to a $8 CAD credit and "refund" for the fees associated with the conversion to CAD from USD. It was like $5.36 USD or $7.35 CAD ... So $8 CAD is acceptable and I now have a CREDIT of $8 CAD in my PayPal Account. Problem solved financially... BUT...
I told them that the option to PAY by Credit Card did NOT show up. It simply linked to my PayPal Account and did not ask my payment method. BIG BUG!!! It should ALWAYS give you the OPTION to choose HOW you want to PAY! Not assume because the payment is in CAD that the CAD balance should be used and if none available the USD balance should be used... AGAIN WRONG! If it was in CAD I would use my Credit Card and pay not CURRENCY CONVERSION fees.
So they gave me a REFERENCE number and their TECH TEAM will be looking into the BUG... Because it is pretty severe...
Great News...
The "sexy" packaging has arrived and I've taken a look already. REAL NEAT! And very "premium" quality with velvet foam inside and spot gloss logo on the box.
I have already managed to "sell" (more like offer) 3x boxes to one of my Crowdfunding Supporters who asked if the dice "came with more 'packaging'" due to the fact that for the KS I only had plastic baggies which could fit 6 DD Dice.
And just to put it in perspective, this supporter spend $110 CAD for 12 DD Dice: 6 Ebony and 6 Ivory plus shipping once ($20 CAD).
So I contacted him when this project to continue the EVOLUTION of the DD Dice started and asked him IF he would be willing to pay for shipping ($20 CAD) and in return, I would send him 3x Boxes for his 12 DD Dice. He agreed and said to contact him once I had the packaging.
We messaged each other and he confirms that the deal is still on: I will ship him 3x "sexy" boxes to him in Toronto and all he has to do is pay for shipping which is $20 CAD.
Yeah I know shipping prices in Canada are crazy. For reference it's about $15 USD... Which is contrary to the USA because shipping IN the USA is about $5 USD. So 3x time the price to ship within Canada nor less from Canada to the USA (more $$$).
Anyhow it is what it is. For now I am going to shift my focus to LOCAL STORES and see what I can get as traction. All baby steps to see what the FLGSs in my area think. One thing at a time.
First is my supporter in Toronto. His order gets processed/handled FIRST. As he was a big supported of my KS... And then we'll work on visiting some people that I know and talk to them about the product and present to them the "NEW" and "sexy" format.
Cheers!
Local stores and HOW to serve them better???
So my plan is to visit a FLGS in my area (sorta) they're about 45 mins to 1 Hour away by car. Yes not the closest of stores ... But they are good people and run a store with all the usual: Board Games, POP Characters, TCGs, Puzzles, Dice, etc. etc.
My girlfriend told me it's best to speak with people in the "industry" to explain how the market works and what are the various avenues of doing business. Some only work with distributors and order online, other are willing to pay cash-and-carry for better markup (If I cut the middleman out I make $3.00 CAD more and the store makes $3.00 CAD more too!), PayPal invoices which provide receipts of the merchandise bought... etc. etc.
This is something that I will discuss and see where it leads to. Nothing better than a sincere way of trying to service the store and listen to their advice. I did and doubled the quantity of dice, now offering premium packaging for only $29.99 MSRP.
The goal is to offer 2x Ebony & 2x Ivory DD Dice which would cost $40 CAD with the current pricing. So consumers stand to SAVE $10 CAD + taxes ($1.15).
We'll see what they have to say... Considering that I need some advice I feel like it's best to get it "from the horses mouth".
Sincerely.
What I HATE about ONLINE SALES...
Most platform charge you a MONTHLY FEE to host your products. That's annoying because it means losing money if there are no sales in the month.
The one platform that DOES NOT charge a monthly fee only prices everything at US dollars (USD currency).
That super sucks for local game stores who want to buy WHOLESALE.
Why? Because they need to PAY a "USD Conversion" Fee on each ORDER. It's quite stupid if you ask me.
Plus I can't say state my pricing is in USD or CAD ... Because the platform ONLY allows USD.
Anyhow... More to think about and FIGURE OUT too! Hah.
Cheers.