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-I've decided to use GameLand to manufacture my game. Because they are the only one's that continued forward with the quote process.
-I've decided against TGC because my game was almost $52 per unit. I can't think of anyone except hobby gamer's that would pay that price for a game, and I don't think any hobby gamer's will be buying my game. So I ordered one for promo purposes and its off to China.
-I will order 1000 units. Hopefully I sell 200 but as of yet the Tariff hasn't passed and this will save me money in the future if that happens. Also I have a shot at going viral and selling 600 which would get me into the Green for this project!!!
-GameLand says they can have me games by October before the Holiday season!! I know that if anything goes wrong that could be close....but I've got to HOPE!!
-I'm looking at 6.78 per unit cost.
-No idea on Freight Forwarding yet.
-Still don't have a lock down on Fulfillment. None of the typical Board Game fulfillment companies wanted my business. Perhaps they're hobby gamer's??? I'm sort of a black sheep in this community, I think because my game looks like Monopoly!!
-I may create a marketing campaign that goes something like this "If you like Monopoly then you'll Love Holiday Fever A Family Tradition".
-I'm set on finding a Fulfillment company in SLC Utah, because its close enough for me to drive to and pick up the games that don't get sold this Holiday Season and store them myself until holidays 2020.
-Thinking about doing a KS in November with a very low goal, offering a coupon for donations (keep from paying KS too much cash) that backers can take to the website and get the game for Cheap!! Just a marketing idea.

Please shoot some holes, give me your idea's, experience, strength, hope!!!

Comments

let-off studios

let-off studios wrote:
evansmind244, this is an awesome indie story in the making. :) You're certainly not short in the "due diligence" department.

It's almost like I can hear Mr. Burns now: "Everything is falling into place...!"

Wow, thank you for the complement Let-off. I appreciate you following my story. I went to your website and thought you may like my friends game, and story.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/669500/Himeko_Sutori/

questccg wrote:Basically to

questccg wrote:
Basically to my understanding all you NEED to do is ensure that the games arrive in a US Port before 15 December 2019. You can transfer them to any fulfillment company from that point moving forwards (QM, Fulfillrite, etc.)

But the idea is that on 15 December 2019, Trump will have 100% control on if he plans to put tariffs on China for a "whole bunch of things". A lot of things are going to go up in price (think Christmas decorations as one example).

And the tariffs are unilaterally 10% of the cost of goods. Picture having a Kickstarter (KS) and paying 10% to KS. Now on top of that you have about 5% (based on 10% of 50% cost of goods) additional fees to pay.

It's really horrible this outcome. Already it's tough to make it in this business and we don't need things that eat into our profits either. (Which is kind of sad because most people I know, designers, aren't really making much profit in the first place)

Anyways just wanted to share some "relevant" information...

Yeah, the reality is that the SMALL GUYS are going to suffer from the trade war. Another notch in the belt of the Giants of every industry!! That's why I see myself as a Giant slayer!!! :) I will attack the heels of Monopoly for years to come!!!
I am however hopeful that perhaps this will open up opportunities for other print shop manufactures (TGC) to lower costs with more people choosing to use their services. When pressure hits us we will find a way to continue with our Crafts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We're in the REAL Board game, and Trump is giving us a strong reason to get more creative in our strategy!!

Next COST

Gameland is now suggesting I get a paper tray to fill the box and add more strength to the box for shipping. I know the Plastic tray is $0.75 so hopefully the paper is $0.45 or less (waiting on the exact cost) still another $750 to $450 additional cost. I've attached a picture they sent to show me how empty the 10 x 10 x 3" box would be.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HyYlNLrPlFKPUHXR_tXx1PLHUHmTqOEA

What do you guys think? Should I get the paper tray? Could this cause damage during shipping? Thanks in advance for your inputs!!

Absolutely do the tray. Our

Absolutely do the tray. Our quotes come in at around $0.24 when only doing 500 copies and drop to $0.18 and less going from 1000 copies and up.

100% worth having to protect contents during transportation.

A plastic tray is, of course, more desirable but costs significantly more and would require you to provide a layout/design.

Why is your box 3" thick?

Why is your box 3" thick?

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
Absolutely do the tray. Our quotes come in at around $0.24 when only doing 500 copies and drop to $0.18 and less going from 1000 copies and up.

100% worth having to protect contents during transportation.

A plastic tray is, of course, more desirable but costs significantly more and would require you to provide a layout/design.

Thanks for the advice and price quotes. I'll let you know about GameLands prices when I hear from them Monday.

Jay103 wrote:Why is your box

Jay103 wrote:
Why is your box 3" thick?

Jay, I think they have a 2.5 inch box, but I couldn't really communicate to GameLand what size box I needed. I was hoping they would say....'NO a 3" box is too big'. I will work that out on Print Run # 2 if we get there. Right now the game is on schedule and I don't want to throw any kinks.

Anyone have a good Play-Through video I can look at for idea's for my play-through video......which I'm dreading to the bottom of my soul!! I dislike being on camera.

What sort of video are you

What sort of video are you thinking of? Literally a gameplay video? Because those can be suuuuuper boring. I tried to do a short "pure gameplay" video and hated it. Then deleted it.

For my kickstarter, however, I just did an interview about the game with my daughter, which went pretty well (I clipped out the first two minutes of a five-minute video, so she was already in the swing of things when the actual posted video started.. basically unscripted, one take).

evansmind244 wrote:-I will

evansmind244 wrote:
-I will order 1000 units.

Without putting it on GameCrafter and seeing how it goes?

We've discussed it before...

apeloverage wrote:
evansmind244 wrote:
-I will order 1000 units.

Without putting it on GameCrafter and seeing how it goes?

Yeah we know Evan wants to get a better price and is ordering more units to helps with economies of scale. Austin (@MAR) just had two (2) KS with low numbers (I believe the final 36 backers)...

Personally I would not make more than 500 units. But if you can get the game made one-off even with lower margins and higher costs, I would consider it (seriously).

It's not like I am not avoiding taking a "risk". But 1,000 units is a large quantity if you have no planned "crowd" sales. And proof is what other games do in terms of volume.

But I guess we all take risks... Everyone wants to be paid upfront and the Game Designer gets paid LAST (if there are any profits to be had...)

So it'll be a learning process to figure out WHO to sell the 1,000 units. However as I explained since his game is more "mainstream" (Roll & Move), he could probably tap into local media coverage and get some real publicity. That could help him sell upwards of 250 units (or so). So there are possibilities to selling larger quantities if done right.

I've read through the posts

I've read through the posts in this thread and looked at your blog evansmind.

Taking everything into account I'm very worried for you. A lot of good advice has already been given to you, but I sincerely think that you are going to struggle enormously. Now, you obviously haven't fallen off the back of a sleigh and bumped your head, because a lot of what you have done has been really good. Getting in quotes, planning everything out, making changes from what I saw in your blog and most of all asking for advice and making the best use of it.

However, I still think you have a lot to do and the game looks like it could still do with another round of development. In terms of my own misgivings this admission raised the most red flags ( or Santas underwear ) for me.

"Jay, I think they have a 2.5 inch box, but I couldn't really communicate to GameLand what size box I needed. I was hoping they would say....'NO a 3" box is too big'. I will work that out on Print Run # 2 if we get there. Right now the game is on schedule and I don't want to throw any kinks."

When it comes to publishing a game excellent communication is VITAL. If you can't get the message to Gameland that you want/need a smaller box you are walking into a nightmare. Over the course of the production process you will have to proof artwork, ask for changes, choose materials ( like card stock ) and all of these things take time. They are also a lot more difficult to discuss and get all your needs across than a simple box size. The list of what you will have to negotiate and ask for within the production process is going to be substantial if you want to get a quality product and full value for your money.

From looking at your blog you have been working on this game since 2016 and you and your future customers deserve the very best game possible. From what I've read I don't think you are going to get that from Gameland in the short time frame you are working with. I can understand why you would want to run the KS before Christmas and get the game to people for Christmas, but even if everything goes according to plan ( and trust me on this one it really won't, because it never does ) I doubt it can be done. Running a November KS is going to give you no margin for error whatsoever. If the production process takes 4 weeks and the shipping takes 2 weeks, which would be a miracle you will still miss a Christmas deadline. It would be ironic if you setup a KS for a game extolling family and a traditional Christmas and then you and your own family had your season of goodwill stolen away by the stress of trying to make good on an unlikely deadline.

My advice would be to take a step back. You have a lot of time and effort invested in this game and you are about to invest a lot of money in it as well. Getting it into backers hands before Christmas is already looking extremely unrealistic. Schedules are important, but a quality end product is far more important.

I can't really say that much about the game itself, because I've only seen the new box shot and some of the pictures you posted awhile ago. Although, I can actually see the value and demand for a good traditional roll and move game with a Christmas theme when others might not. I tried clicking on the links for the rules but they led to nothing.

From the bits and bobs that I have seen I could possibly make one or two suggestions that may or may not be of interest - but without any additional information that isn't something I would be comfortable doing.

Did you ask Leon at Wingo for a quote?

BubbleChucks wrote:and the

BubbleChucks wrote:
and the shipping takes 2 weeks

Hahahaha

Will probably take 2 weeks to get it from factory onto a scheduled ship (factory finishes, coordinates paperwork with shipper, gets stuff to docks, ship leaves 2 days later.. that sort of thing). Another week to get through customs. A week from customs to warehouse intake (or home delivery unless you live right near a west-coast US port). THEN add in the time in transit.

IDK - I kinda agree with BubbleChucks

BubbleChucks wrote:
Taking everything into account I'm very worried for you.

My only issue is with the production of a MOQ of 1,000 units. If it all goes well and you make 500 units (and they are all sold), nothing stops you from ordering another batch of 500 units...

However the opposite is true too.

It's hard to make 1,000 units and find "Creative" ways to move that stock into FLGSs. It's not like ONLINE where you get 100%, you only get 50%.

Using your own Website is a good idea... But will people know where to go? And even if in this case you make 100%, the problem is LOW traffic.

You could try distribution and sell 200 or so just like that ... But the problem with most distributors is that they prefer buying more than ONE (1) game... They like looking through a catalog (even if it's only like 3 or 4 games) and place orders for quantities of the games they see as moving and selling. But then again you only get 40%, even lower profit.

IDK, you and Austin are in the same boat: enough money to FUND the game. But no REAL "audience" to BUY said game. 36 Backers is not a KS. I did 34 on TGC's Crowdfunding... It's just a start. Where you all go NEXT, IDK.

Wishing you all the best with this endeavor... I hope my instincts are incorrect and that you find a huge market for your game.

Cheers!

I think 500 copies for a

I think 500 copies for a first run would be a better idea as well. Even if the unit cost is higher the benefit of testing the market before going all in is worth it.

I would also look to cover a fair chunk of the production cost with the KS amount required to go ahead.

Since my last post I've had a bit of a rummage around.

I actually met and talked with the people from Gameland at the UK Games Expo in May of this year. It was their first year in attendance, along with a couple of others that I haven't met before.

I dug out all the samples and information I politely accepted while I was there. What is very interesting is that I recall dropping one sample pack in the bin while I was there, because the quality was off.

If a company ever gives me a poor quality sample it is game over for them. In my eyes it is their opportunity to impress me or at least meet a minimum standard. If they can't do that I have no use for them. The sample missing from my haul was Gamelands.

On the positive front I had yet another nice chat with Leon from Wingo. Which, along with positive comments from people who have used them, is why I mentioned him and his company.

https://stonemaiergames.com/top-5-mistakes-to-avoid-when-manufacturing-i...

I also talked with Tefl and and Panda. Both of them are very established and professional - but expensive.

Longpack attended again, but I wouldn't recommend them because I've had negative feedback from some of the people who have dealt with them.

Another new to the Expo company I met was Starry Game Manufacturing. I don't know enough about them yet, but we chatted for going on 30 minutes and they presented themselves really well. Free warehousing and sending direct from China as single orders piqued my interest.

The last new to me manufacturer that I talked with was hsboardgame.com.

For some puzzling reason they gave me a leather wallet as a gift. I would have been happier with sample components. Another one that I'm not sure about, but their website looks good - except for the factory video with the bloke on corner rounding that made me wince a bit. I don't like seeing offcut blocks of wood being used as tools and the cards seemed to be poorly aligned when the exited the machine.

Evans costly mistake with his first artist should be a learning experience that could also apply to picking a manufacturer. A company can get back in touch quickly because they are either professional or desperate for business. In the latter case it could be because nobody is using them for good reason.

Like I said, I'm worried. Worried to the point that I logged in after being absent for a long time to post on this thread. Take your time evan, visit the link I posted and dot every i and cross every t before going ahead.

Peace be with you

White Box proof

BubbleChucks wrote:
I think 500 copies for a first run would be a better idea as well. Even if the unit cost is higher the benefit of testing the market before going all in is worth it...

And one other matter... Shouldn't the Manufacturer be providing you with a White Box??? The White Box is a sample of YOUR game without ANY printing. But all the cards (right quantity), board and parts (like dice, pawns, etc.) and lastly (but most importantly for you) the BOX should all be a part of it... (not sure about the TRAY???)

I mention the BOX, because there is this 3" vs. 2.5" thickness. You say that it should get ironed out in MULTIPLE print runs! Wrong, my friend. The White Box should tell you almost EXACTLY what amount of space you require.

Didn't GameLand mention this to you???

If not, I would not deal with them. White Boxes are the pre-printing proofing method used by PRO manufacturers. I'm not sure what they do for miniatures... Maybe someone who had a White Box to proof (@Jason, @Andrew, @Chris) ... Any one of your pro designers who have already had their games made and shipped.

Feel free to chime in...

Jay103 wrote:What sort of

Jay103 wrote:
What sort of video are you thinking of? Literally a gameplay video? Because those can be suuuuuper boring. I tried to do a short "pure gameplay" video and hated it. Then deleted it.

For my kickstarter, however, I just did an interview about the game with my daughter, which went pretty well (I clipped out the first two minutes of a five-minute video, so she was already in the swing of things when the actual posted video started.. basically unscripted, one take).

Jay thanks for your advice. I have a friend coming over this coming week and I'll just have her film everything I can think of, and then we'll edit out the junk. I do want to have a few video's that help explain the more complicated aspects of the game (quickly without getting boring). There are a few places in the rules people tend to ask questions. I think the main focus will be a quick interview about the game, and how it works.
It has been so difficult for me to do a video (I DON'T wand to be on film)!!!

apeloverage

apeloverage wrote:
evansmind244 wrote:
-I will order 1000 units.

Without putting it on GameCrafter and seeing how it goes?

Apeloverage, thanks for looking through this blog. Yeah, I'm steering away from the Kick Starter and GameCrafter and just going with my heart!! My game is actually on the GameCrafter but they only do a 18" board and the tokens are not the correct colors. I've sent TGC copies to 3 reviewers so far, and the copy they sent me was awesome. However the GameLand copy has a "20 board and matching tokens etc.....

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the seeing how it goes...waiting for enough followers before I launch type of business plan. I'm going to sell a 1000 games in 3 years because I have 1000 games to sell, and I stand by my Game. I am going to be the Jonny Appleseed for my Game!! Leave a copy everywhere I go!! It's an awesome game, and I know that I can find 1000 fans in the next 3 years. After that, I'll change my business plan.
If I FAIL? Then I will switch to plan B..........oh wait I don't have a plan B!!
Keep following my posts here and we'll see how it goes. Of course your advice and input is appreciated at anytime. Thank you

questccg wrote:apeloverage

questccg wrote:
apeloverage wrote:
evansmind244 wrote:
-I will order 1000 units.

Without putting it on GameCrafter and seeing how it goes?

Yeah we know Evan wants to get a better price and is ordering more units to helps with economies of scale. Austin (@MAR) just had two (2) KS with low numbers (I believe the final 36 backers)...

Personally I would not make more than 500 units. But if you can get the game made one-off even with lower margins and higher costs, I would consider it (seriously).

It's not like I am not avoiding taking a "risk". But 1,000 units is a large quantity if you have no planned "crowd" sales. And proof is what other games do in terms of volume.

But I guess we all take risks... Everyone wants to be paid upfront and the Game Designer gets paid LAST (if there are any profits to be had...)

So it'll be a learning process to figure out WHO to sell the 1,000 units. However as I explained since his game is more "mainstream" (Roll & Move), he could probably tap into local media coverage and get some real publicity. That could help him sell upwards of 250 units (or so). So there are possibilities to selling larger quantities if done right.

Quest, I'm hiring a Web designer to make my website look reasonable, and also set up the Store. I'm surprised at how cheap it is. I've got my first quote at $250 euros for setting up the store, helping with SEO, and Analytics! I'll let you know as the quotes come in. I even have a designer with a board game tee-shirt website wanting to help. This is all through WIXs.

BubbleChucks wrote:I've read

BubbleChucks wrote:
I've read through the posts in this thread and looked at your blog evansmind.

Taking everything into account I'm very worried for you. A lot of good advice has already been given to you, but I sincerely think that you are going to struggle enormously. Now, you obviously haven't fallen off the back of a sleigh and bumped your head, because a lot of what you have done has been really good. Getting in quotes, planning everything out, making changes from what I saw in your blog and most of all asking for advice and making the best use of it.

However, I still think you have a lot to do and the game looks like it could still do with another round of development. In terms of my own misgivings this admission raised the most red flags ( or Santas underwear ) for me.

"Jay, I think they have a 2.5 inch box, but I couldn't really communicate to GameLand what size box I needed. I was hoping they would say....'NO a 3" box is too big'. I will work that out on Print Run # 2 if we get there. Right now the game is on schedule and I don't want to throw any kinks."

When it comes to publishing a game excellent communication is VITAL. If you can't get the message to Gameland that you want/need a smaller box you are walking into a nightmare. Over the course of the production process you will have to proof artwork, ask for changes, choose materials ( like card stock ) and all of these things take time. They are also a lot more difficult to discuss and get all your needs across than a simple box size. The list of what you will have to negotiate and ask for within the production process is going to be substantial if you want to get a quality product and full value for your money.

From looking at your blog you have been working on this game since 2016 and you and your future customers deserve the very best game possible. From what I've read I don't think you are going to get that from Gameland in the short time frame you are working with. I can understand why you would want to run the KS before Christmas and get the game to people for Christmas, but even if everything goes according to plan ( and trust me on this one it really won't, because it never does ) I doubt it can be done. Running a November KS is going to give you no margin for error whatsoever. If the production process takes 4 weeks and the shipping takes 2 weeks, which would be a miracle you will still miss a Christmas deadline. It would be ironic if you setup a KS for a game extolling family and a traditional Christmas and then you and your own family had your season of goodwill stolen away by the stress of trying to make good on an unlikely deadline.

My advice would be to take a step back. You have a lot of time and effort invested in this game and you are about to invest a lot of money in it as well. Getting it into backers hands before Christmas is already looking extremely unrealistic. Schedules are important, but a quality end product is far more important.

I can't really say that much about the game itself, because I've only seen the new box shot and some of the pictures you posted awhile ago. Although, I can actually see the value and demand for a good traditional roll and move game with a Christmas theme when others might not. I tried clicking on the links for the rules but they led to nothing.

From the bits and bobs that I have seen I could possibly make one or two suggestions that may or may not be of interest - but without any additional information that isn't something I would be comfortable doing.

Did you ask Leon at Wingo for a quote?

BubbleChucks, thank you for reading through and considering how to help. I got quotes from several Manufactures (Panda, Shuffled, and a few others I can't think of) I went with GameLand because they have guaranteed my time line. They have a great price, and they have the right size components which cost me less to have my Graphic Designer fit all the art for manufacturing. GameLand is doing a great job. Yes Vicky (the point of contact) doesn't speak the best english but we always figure out what needs to be done. As for the box, that is probably mostly my fault, and my timeline. I've solved the problem by adding a paper tray. The Game Crafter wasn't helpful with the box sizing either......for me its not a big problem. This is my first year, and I don't think it's important to have everything PERFECT. The box may change size if I get to print run 2 but as for now, I'm happy with a 3" box.
As for development.....I'm going to let my customers tell me if the game is finished. I feel that the game is complete enough....its certainly been play-tested enough and I stand by the finished product. That doesn't mean that if I get a bunch of comments about any aspect about the game that I won't change it....but as for me I need feedback from real, paying customers before any further development will be added or subtracted from the game. I've found that talking with Game Designers there is always a better idea or something that can be added or subtracted!! Let's see what my target audience thinks, and I'll go with their opinions.
Thank you for reading through everything. I would love your advice, and comments. Please let me know anything that stands out to you. Take care.

questccg wrote:BubbleChucks

questccg wrote:
BubbleChucks wrote:
Taking everything into account I'm very worried for you.

My only issue is with the production of a MOQ of 1,000 units. If it all goes well and you make 500 units (and they are all sold), nothing stops you from ordering another batch of 500 units...

However the opposite is true too.

It's hard to make 1,000 units and find "Creative" ways to move that stock into FLGSs. It's not like ONLINE where you get 100%, you only get 50%.

Using your own Website is a good idea... But will people know where to go? And even if in this case you make 100%, the problem is LOW traffic.

You could try distribution and sell 200 or so just like that ... But the problem with most distributors is that they prefer buying more than ONE (1) game... They like looking through a catalog (even if it's only like 3 or 4 games) and place orders for quantities of the games they see as moving and selling. But then again you only get 40%, even lower profit.

IDK, you and Austin are in the same boat: enough money to FUND the game. But no REAL "audience" to BUY said game. 36 Backers is not a KS. I did 34 on TGC's Crowdfunding... It's just a start. Where you all go NEXT, IDK.

Wishing you all the best with this endeavor... I hope my instincts are incorrect and that you find a huge market for your game.

Cheers!

Quest, you know I'm going to find 1000 fans!! Its my destiny!! Then I'm going to help you find 1000 fans for your game, and then we'll help Jay and everyone else find 1000 fans for their game's and then we'll start the new ULTRA GAME COMPANY that finally slay's Hasbro (the dragon). hahahahahahah

questccg wrote:BubbleChucks

questccg wrote:
BubbleChucks wrote:
I think 500 copies for a first run would be a better idea as well. Even if the unit cost is higher the benefit of testing the market before going all in is worth it...

And one other matter... Shouldn't the Manufacturer be providing you with a White Box??? The White Box is a sample of YOUR game without ANY printing. But all the cards (right quantity), board and parts (like dice, pawns, etc.) and lastly (but most importantly for you) the BOX should all be a part of it... (not sure about the TRAY???)

I mention the BOX, because there is this 3" vs. 2.5" thickness. You say that it should get ironed out in MULTIPLE print runs! Wrong, my friend. The White Box should tell you almost EXACTLY what amount of space you require.

Didn't GameLand mention this to you???

If not, I would not deal with them. White Boxes are the pre-printing proofing method used by PRO manufacturers. I'm not sure what they do for miniatures... Maybe someone who had a White Box to proof (@Jason, @Andrew, @Chris) ... Any one of your pro designers who have already had their games made and shipped.

Feel free to chime in...

I didn't get a Whitebox quote, but I had several manufactures tell me that a 3" box is what I needed. TGC didn't even give me a white box quote. For me its just a .5" difference, and I'm not at all worried about it. Besides with my game you're supposed to save the Score Cards for EVER. So in 20 years you're going to be grateful for the extra half inch!! Thank you all for helping me to continue to learn.

evansmind244 wrote:questccg

evansmind244 wrote:
questccg wrote:
BubbleChucks wrote:
I think 500 copies for a first run would be a better idea as well. Even if the unit cost is higher the benefit of testing the market before going all in is worth it...

And one other matter... Shouldn't the Manufacturer be providing you with a White Box??? The White Box is a sample of YOUR game without ANY printing. But all the cards (right quantity), board and parts (like dice, pawns, etc.) and lastly (but most importantly for you) the BOX should all be a part of it... (not sure about the TRAY???)

I mention the BOX, because there is this 3" vs. 2.5" thickness. You say that it should get ironed out in MULTIPLE print runs! Wrong, my friend. The White Box should tell you almost EXACTLY what amount of space you require.

Didn't GameLand mention this to you???

If not, I would not deal with them. White Boxes are the pre-printing proofing method used by PRO manufacturers. I'm not sure what they do for miniatures... Maybe someone who had a White Box to proof (@Jason, @Andrew, @Chris) ... Any one of your pro designers who have already had their games made and shipped.

Feel free to chime in...

I didn't get a Whitebox quote, but I had several manufactures tell me that a 3" box is what I needed. TGC didn't even give me a white box quote. For me its just a .5" difference, and I'm not at all worried about it. Besides with my game you're supposed to save the Score Cards for EVER. So in 20 years you're going to be grateful for the extra half inch!! Thank you all for helping me to continue to learn.


But.. you did get a "whitebox". That's the pic you sent out that started this part of the thread, with cards that weren't your cards, etc.

The reason I questioned it was that Monopoly is maybe 1.5" thick, and your game is, of course, fairly similar in component list.

More about the White Box

Jay103 wrote:
But... you did get a "whitebox". That's the pic you sent out that started this part of the thread, with cards that weren't your cards, etc.

I never saw this image...? Can someone refer me the BGDF link or URL??

Jay103 wrote:
The reason I questioned it was that Monopoly is maybe 1.5" thick, and your game is, of course, fairly similar in component list.

@Jason makes a valid point. But I think your box is SMALLER like 11"x11"?! I don't believe you are using the LARGER "Monopoly" Box size... More like your average Modern Day Board Game. Remember less than 12"x12" to ensure that the game fits on MOST store shelves...

evansmind244 wrote:Gameland

evansmind244 wrote:
Gameland is now suggesting I get a paper tray to fill the box and add more strength to the box for shipping. I know the Plastic tray is $0.75 so hopefully the paper is $0.45 or less (waiting on the exact cost) still another $750 to $450 additional cost. I've attached a picture they sent to show me how empty the 10 x 10 x 3" box would be.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HyYlNLrPlFKPUHXR_tXx1PLHUHmTqOEA

(.. in which the box looked rather.. deep to me. Maybe those are all real components, in which case it's not really 'white')

Hmm... That box looks almost empty?!

Could be a "White box" but if it is, there are HARDLY any components to worry about such a deep box... That Deck of "Mission" cards could be halved into two packs (50% each) and there would still be place left over in the box for other components.

IDK... From THAT image the box looks almost EMPTY!

@Evans: Can you clarify the nature of that picture??? Is that from the Manufacturer or is it you and the TGC prototype...?

If that's you box... 3" or even 2.5" seems A LOT. Maybe only 1.5" necessary... I'm just commenting based on THAT image.

[/quote]But.. you did get a

Quote:
But.. you did get a "whitebox". That's the pic you sent out that started this part of the thread, with cards that weren't your cards, etc.

The reason I questioned it was that Monopoly is maybe 1.5" thick, and your game is, of course, fairly similar in component list.

I guess I did get a "white box" quote but didn't realize it. (BTW some of the components are Holiday Fever, but the cards are not, and I don't think the board was in there because it should take up the whole 10 x 10 box). Gameland didn't say... "the 3" box is a little big, have your designer send us a copy of Box art for a 2.5 inch box". I just said "keep moving forward, YES add the paper tray, and stay on schedule.

questccg wrote:Jay103

questccg wrote:
Jay103 wrote:
But... you did get a "whitebox". That's the pic you sent out that started this part of the thread, with cards that weren't your cards, etc.

I never saw this image...? Can someone refer me the BGDF link or URL??

Jay103 wrote:
The reason I questioned it was that Monopoly is maybe 1.5" thick, and your game is, of course, fairly similar in component list.

@Jason makes a valid point. But I think your box is SMALLER like 11"x11"?! I don't believe you are using the LARGER "Monopoly" Box size... More like your average Modern Day Board Game. Remember less than 12"x12" to ensure that the game fits on MOST store shelves...

The Box is going to be 10" X 10" X 3". I have TGC copy and I like the 3" depth.

questccg wrote:Could be a

questccg wrote:
Could be a "White box" but if it is, there are HARDLY any components to worry about such a deep box... That Deck of "Mission" cards could be halved into two packs (50% each) and there would still be place left over in the box for other components.

IDK... From THAT image the box looks almost EMPTY!

@Evans: Can you clarify the nature of that picture??? Is that from the Manufacturer or is it you and the TGC prototype...?

If that's you box... 3" or even 2.5" seems A LOT. Maybe only 1.5" necessary... I'm just commenting based on THAT image.

The picture is the actual box, board (I think), score cards, tokens, and the cards. Which is everything. It does look empty. I will share the picture of the box with the Paper tray when I get it.

On a positive...I found 3 people that fit my target audience (Families) that have blogs, and social media presence with other Families. The first person to review the game was Lisa from https://makinglifeblissful.com/
just played with her family and enjoyed the game. She said she would like to post of her social media about the game etc!! That feels good!! I will plan on sending her as many free games as she can hand out.

Update

Final payment has been sent for Holiday Fever $7,500 total for 1000 units. Which included the extra cost for 50 more score card sheets and the $0.24 paper tray. So $7.50 per unit.

Shipping FBO quote is at $1510 from OTX who will be shipping direct to Quarter Master. I'm sure there will be some extra fee's through import process, but I am going to luck out and not pay the Tariffs. OTX will have the game loaded by Oct 3rd and shipping is 35 days. I should have games mid November. Amateur mistake with setting up shipping. I should have had OTX working on it 2 weeks ago!!! Lesson Learned.

Holiday Fever is 1.4 kg per unit which would put me in the 2kg category for shipping at QM which is $12.32 per unit fulfillment and shipping.

Any thoughts on charging $30 per game from my website, and customer picks up the QM shipping? Customer would pay $42.32 per game.

Attached are a bunch of Google drive links that show the Paper tray, box with board, and rules. "Sorry Quest I forgot how to name the google drive links" (Fixed that for you). The bottom link show's the added paper tray, and I have to say I think I will stick with the 3" box because it gives families plenty of room to stack up score sheets over the years.

Give me some feedback or your thoughts. Thank YOU

Board Folded
Board in Box
Box with Rulebook on top
Game Cards
Game Cardbacks
More Game Cards
More Game Cardbacks
Game Board Flat
Game Box with Inserts

evansmind244 wrote: On a

evansmind244 wrote:

On a positive...I found 3 people that fit my target audience (Families) that have blogs, and social media presence with other Families. The first person to review the game was Lisa from https://makinglifeblissful.com/
just played with her family and enjoyed the game. She said she would like to post of her social media about the game etc!! That feels good!! I will plan on sending her as many free games as she can hand out.

Good job. Nice quantity of followers across multiple platforms hitting exactly what your target audience may be, until you hit Target, of course. Look forward to seeing her coverage, learning from it.

evansmind244 wrote:Final

evansmind244 wrote:
Final payment has been sent for Holiday Fever $7,500 total for 1000 units. Which included the extra cost for 50 more score card sheets and the $0.24 paper tray. So $7.50 per unit.

Shipping FBO quote is at $1510 from OTX who will be shipping direct to Quarter Master. I'm sure there will be some extra fee's through import process, but I am going to luck out and not pay the Tariffs. OTX will have the game loaded by Oct 3rd and shipping is 35 days. I should have games mid November. Amateur mistake with setting up shipping. I should have had OTX working on it 2 weeks ago!!! Lesson Learned.


We may be on the same boat :)

(maybe not.. are you shipping out of Ningbo port?)

Mosker wrote:evansmind244

Mosker wrote:
evansmind244 wrote:

On a positive...I found 3 people that fit my target audience (Families) that have blogs, and social media presence with other Families. The first person to review the game was Lisa from https://makinglifeblissful.com/
just played with her family and enjoyed the game. She said she would like to post of her social media about the game etc!! That feels good!! I will plan on sending her as many free games as she can hand out.

Good job. Nice quantity of followers across multiple platforms hitting exactly what your target audience may be, until you hit Target, of course. Look forward to seeing her coverage, learning from it.

Thank you Mosker you are always positive and uplifting!! I've also sent a game to a Braden at https://justsimplereviews.wordpress.com and I don't have word back from him yet, but when I emailed him he told me he was looking for a Christmas Themed board game to review. I'll keep in to touch and let you know how this year goes.

Jay103 wrote:evansmind244

Jay103 wrote:
evansmind244 wrote:
Final payment has been sent for Holiday Fever $7,500 total for 1000 units. Which included the extra cost for 50 more score card sheets and the $0.24 paper tray. So $7.50 per unit.

Shipping FBO quote is at $1510 from OTX who will be shipping direct to Quarter Master. I'm sure there will be some extra fee's through import process, but I am going to luck out and not pay the Tariffs. OTX will have the game loaded by Oct 3rd and shipping is 35 days. I should have games mid November. Amateur mistake with setting up shipping. I should have had OTX working on it 2 weeks ago!!! Lesson Learned.


We may be on the same boat :)

(maybe not.. are you shipping out of Ningbo port?)

Jay, yes I'm shipping out of Ningbo!!! hahahaha Our game game's will arrive at QM at the same time. Can you get a discount for referring me? How many games did you order?

evansmind244 wrote:Jay, yes

evansmind244 wrote:
Jay, yes I'm shipping out of Ningbo!!! hahahaha Our game game's will arrive at QM at the same time. Can you get a discount for referring me? How many games did you order?

They did not give me a discount :(

This order of mine is 768 games, which I correctly anticipated would be exactly 2 pallets. They were nice enough to do an undersized order for me.

Jay

Jay, which manufacture are you using? Gameland? I never even considered doing undersized orders.

I had a chance meeting with a guy who owns Reddog Mercantile last night. We discussed my game and he's going to set up an Amazon page and sell it for me. Holiday Fever will be on Amazon!!!!!!!!!! Of course I will have to sign an exclusivity contract (no one else can sell Holiday Fever on Amazon) with him, but I'm stoked that I will get visibility on Amazon. To start he will purchase 10 games at $15 per unit so I've made my first SALE!!!!!!! Yahtzee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A few more details on the contract. I will set the retail for Holiday Fever at $30 per unit. Reddog and I will sign a contract setting a minimum sale price at $27ish for any retailer. This is to protect Reddog from having to compete with other retailers who may undercut him on Amazon (I have no retailers right now) . We didn't discuss contract length, but the main thing he was concerned about was the "no compete" with other retailers who may also sell on Amazon, to include Amazon its self. Apparently if you have a product that sells well on Amazon they will contact you and want to become your direct distributor. I don't see that happening for Holiday Fever for several years so I'm fine with that for now.

Anyway more to follow as this year plays out.

Ningbo Lijia. It cost a

Ningbo Lijia.

It cost a little more per unit vs. 1000 of course, but I didn't want so many copies of this, and I knew there would be additional savings available if I could keep the pallet count down by 1.

Good luck! I really should've put my stuff on Amazon, but it's moderately expensive to carry stock there.

Shipping isn't FREE!

evansmind244 wrote:
...I had a chance meeting with a guy who owns Reddog Mercantile last night. We discussed my game and he's going to set up an Amazon page and sell it for me. Holiday Fever will be on Amazon!

Of course you need to factor in the price of SHIPPING when selling on Amazon.com. Don't offer FREE shipping, otherwise it will kill you in terms of profits. I'm advocating KS 2.0. And in this version of KS, fnck cheap deals... If you WANT a game, you need to be reasonably OPEN to extra fees such as tariffs, high cost of art, freight and fulfillment, warehousing fees, etc. Everything COSTS US as the Game Designers. And in KS 2.0 you WANT to make some profit for YOURSELF and your company.

It's as plain and simple as that! Both entities need to make some money otherwise what is the point of having a KS campaign anyway???

So be realistic with this Amazon.com guy. He will need to charge shipping above and beyond the price of the game. Where as Distributors will buy in larger quantities and get economies of scale when it comes to shipping too. The bottom line here is that the Retailer will UP the price to cover any shipping he is being charged for and then it gets invisibly passed to the consumer without their knowledge...

Therefore take that into consideration. Cheers!

Note #1: Therefore if you are selling him 10 games for $15 ... you should ADD the cost of shipping good to the nearest Amazon Warehouse. Also avoid quantities which are not a BOX full. For TW that's six (6) games to a Box. If you are selling to this guy, I would say that there are "X" games to a Box and you are buying "Y" boxes plus the cost to ship the games...

Of course that might up the cost of the game from $30 USD to maybe $34 USD (just an example)... But I'm sure you get the idea.

PLEASE make sure you are making some profit... Not selling the games at a loss or break even. Your COST is $7.50 + Freight + Warehousing + Shipping so it's not $7.50 (if you were thinking 2x = $15 USD).

Do you understand what I mean??? All those OTHER costs will EAT into your margin and you'll land up with next to nothing IF you don't account for them in your price point.

Best of luck... I'm already seeing first time mistakes that occurred with me and TW. Don't be a sucker and forget to properly price everything. My mistake with OLG ... too small margins. I've already explained this to you in a PM ... So you should have some idea what to expect and how to ensure you price things in the correct way.

questccg wrote: It's as plain

questccg wrote:

It's as plain and simple as that! Both entities need to make some money otherwise what is the point of having a KS campaign anyway???

Art?

Quote:
So be realistic with this Amazon.com guy. He will need to charge shipping above and beyond the price of the game.

Not if it's Fulfilled By Amazon.

Quote:
PLEASE make sure you are making some profit... Not selling the games at a loss or break even. Your COST is $7.50 + Freight + Warehousing + Shipping so it's not $7.50 (if you were thinking 2x = $15 USD).

I have to agree that $15/unit to a distributor is probably no profit at all, since I assume you also have to ship to them somehow. Maybe profit isn't what you're looking for, though.

Jay103 wrote:questccg

Jay103 wrote:
questccg wrote:

It's as plain and simple as that! Both entities need to make some money otherwise what is the point of having a KS campaign anyway???

Art?

Yes... He is paying the Graphic Designer to re-do the Game Board, all of the cards, etc. All that is ART and it's above and BEYOND the $7.50 USD of his manufacturing quote! So yeah, I did put that in my response ("high cost of art").

Jay103 wrote:
Quote:
So be realistic with this Amazon.com guy. He will need to charge shipping above and beyond the price of the game.

Not if it's Fulfilled By Amazon.

Isn't the price of FBA mean that the product is sold at a HIGHER price point? Not sure it's only a question of larger volume. But I'm not an expert on Amazon.com. I'm just going with common sense. Something that people who I thought were professional grossly were negligent towards the bottom line.

Jay103 wrote:
Quote:
PLEASE make sure you are making some profit... Not selling the games at a loss or break even. Your COST is $7.50 + Freight + Warehousing + Shipping so it's not $7.50 (if you were thinking 2x = $15 USD).

I have to agree that $15/unit to a distributor is probably no profit at all, since I assume you also have to ship to them somehow. Maybe profit isn't what you're looking for, though.

Yeah $15/unit, $7.50 to work with. But factor everything in like cost of Art, Freight, Warehouse fees, Shipping to Amazon ... You'll see that $7.50 USD you see as profitability will DISAPPEAR!

Note #1: I know you are excited to get your first sales even BEFORE the game is made and all. But don't make amateurish mistakes. You got my PM and you can read the margins how they were priced and what should have been the REAL price.

It's just good business practice to startup a business relationship on a good start. And if your "Z" Units get sold at near zero profit, it might be difficult to "re-negotiate" or may anger consumers (Why are we paying more now?) It's important to get it RIGHT, the first time around.

I know we're being tough on you... You saw my PM and read it. Don't be a fool and lose money when you should be making it. At this point in time you need to think like a "business". No profit = no more money = no more print runs = no more games to buy = dead game. Just be more cautious with your optimism and demonstrate some REALITY in terms of pricing.

questccg wrote:Jay103

questccg wrote:
Jay103 wrote:
questccg wrote:

It's as plain and simple as that! Both entities need to make some money otherwise what is the point of having a KS campaign anyway???

Art?

Yes... He is paying the Graphic Designer to re-do the Game Board, all of the cards, etc. All that is ART and it's above and BEYOND the $7.50 USD of his manufacturing quote! So yeah, I did put that in my response ("high cost of art").


Well, I meant that some people use Kickstarter to be able to afford to make something without extra profit, for the sake of making the thing.

Better start now if he is to be a billion-naire!

Jay103 wrote:
Well, I meant that some people use Kickstarter to be able to afford to make something without extra profit, for the sake of making the thing.

He's not planning on KS-ing his game... Because although his game has Mass Market appeal, it doesn't appeal to the "Modern Game Crowd" because it is a roll & move game (similar to Monopoly). In this case he'd just be making it harder to re-coup his investment.

And I can say from someone who is about to make $0 USD of profit from a 5 year venture with 4 business partners... NOBODY is happy with the outcome.

It's highly discouraging. He may want to MAKE the game... But his expenses are more than just the $7,500 USD to make the game. He spent additional money with his FIRST Graphic Designer which bled him... And they he found a more reasonable Graphic Designer but also cost MORE money above and beyond that.

We'll never know how he does, if he makes $0 USD in profit and sells 1,000 units. That is the epitome of "Waste of time". That's what "we've" been calling it. Nobody making any money is rather pointless. And the other problem is Evan is NOT a Riener Knizia. He has ONE (1) Good Game... He needs to milk it for as much as possible...

Sure, sure ... and does making no profit sound like: "I'm going to be a billion-naire"... Not sure you see my point?! The earlier you get into the RIGHT mindset the better.

There are authors out there

There are authors out there who write a book, publish it at their own expense, and then take it to shows to try to sell copies. There is no way any of these people are breaking even, let alone making a profit, but I'm pretty sure they're happy if they go to a show and sell a few and have someone tell them how much they enjoyed the book. I don't think they're out to make a profit at all.

(I can say personally, that even though I'd very much like to make a profit, I really like having someone come up to me and tell me that they played Heroes & Treasure with their kids and loved it.. so I can totally understand that motivation)

If something is your PASSION

Don't you think if you find that "something" that makes you go: "Wow, I really enjoy doing this!" that you would want to invest your energies and life pursuing this PASSION???

Evan is no idiot, his game has MERIT and it could be a good seller (10,000+ copies) if he can convince media to do some advertising for the game.

The only real issue I see, is under-evaluating COST and ending up with UNREASONABLE margins. Yeah I know we all say we're not in it for the money. But that is such a cliché. It would be nice to be able to make a LIVING off of the things that we enjoy doing.

And Evan has shared some of his "insight" into the super-fan and building an audience for the products that "we" design. To me it sounds like if you want to be serious about it... You NEED to be "In the Black" if you hope to succeed!

1510

Game 7,500
FBO 1,510
Art 4,000
Web 1,000
Total 14,010/1000game = $14.01 game All cost.

Even if I sold all the games to the Red Dog Mercantile ($15 per)I would still make $1,000.
If I sold 467 games in the next 3 years at $30 I break even. I'm happy with both the price point, and the margins. What do you guys think?

Disclaimer: I'm not going to calculate the $3k I spent on the first Artist because I've written that off, and I learned my lesson.

I'm most definitely not apart of the cliche in the industry. Once I've paid the price I will turn a profit.

My method is a little different than the average board game designer using KS. I am going with a $30 price point for the logical reason's that you all bring up, but I'm also not charging x5 landed cost because I'm direct selling (minus Red Dog Mercantile), and my objective over the next 3 years is to get fans, build a community, and platform to launch my games. Profits will come with a platform, a platform that can be leveraged over any future idea's and games I release. Costs will only go down from here. Print run 2 will be easy, painless, and ON TIME (hopefully). Thanks for all the HARPING on me. I appreciate all the advice (hard knock love) and wisdom gained from this BGDF platform.

Here's my "advice" and you can "take it or leave it"

But you know how a $1.00 USD Margin is LAUGHABLE. Let me do some KS_2.0 on what you have presented. I'd say the $1.00 is NOT income, it's a loss somewhere you have not already calculated. Now you've forgotten shipping to the Amazon.com WAREHOUSE. Let's say 12 games (2 boxes x 6 units/each). Shipping costs you $30.00 USD. So that's $2.50 USD EACH! (See you lost that dollar ALREADY!)

So your COST, all-in is $17.50 USD/unit. Let's for the sake of the argument say that at this point "You BREAK EVEN".

You'll never make the 5x multiplier, meaning you'll never be able to SELL to traditional Distribution (so maybe local stores may carry the game... I doubt I'll find it on a store shelf in Montreal... Unlike say... Scythe).

I say give yourself $2.50 USD as profit per game (it's low). So you SELL at $20 USD/unit. The MSRP is $40 USD and the Amazon.com price. You're making HARDLY any profit at this point. $5.00 USD would be BETTER ... but I know you want to LOWER the price (just a bit) to see if more people will buy the game.

My conclusion: $20 USD wholesale with $2.50 USD/unit profit. MSRP = $40 USD/unit (sold on Amazon.com).

That's some REAL numbers... All still "very low". You can't AFFORD to sell your game at $30 USD/unit. You're going to be in the RED and your margins will all be "fncked up".

Even with $20 USD wholesale... There isn't much room to WIGGLE. Again it's just my opinion, "take it or leave it"...

I just don't want you to get all messed up because you went TOO LOW. Trust me I know how it feels and it really is unfortunate but so very frustrating because you put your trust thinking "They've done this before" and then at the end of the day, there is ZERO (0) profit... and nobody is happy...

But it's your game... If you want it UNDERVALUED, that's your own decision.

Note #1: How I look at it is this (Top line vs. Bottom line).

$2.50 USD/unit profit.
$+0.50 USD/unit minor discount from SHIPPING.
$+1.00 USD/unit original $1 you might make.

= $4.00 USD/unit... Much more reasonable. So your RANGE is between $2.50 and $4.00 USD/unit in terms of NET profit.

Note #2: I know you want to THINK that every time you go to the Post Office to ship your games, you are going to get the SAME price... Well from my experience dealing with the Post Office, it's NEVER the SAME PRICE! (LOL) I know we laugh about it... But unless it's the exact two (2) boxes with 6 games each ... You won't have any negotiation power there. So that's why I said MAYBE a $0.50 discount. Like maybe $24 USD for 2 boxes... MAYBE.

Note #3: Before you make ANY deals, figure out YOUR cost to ship this to an Amazon.com warehouse. I could be WRONG and it could be HIGHER... IDK. Would definitely look into this... It's very important because it COULD put you in the RED if you don't price it CORRECTLY!

I'm happy to hear that things

I'm happy to hear that things are moving ahead for you Evans. I looked at all the file links you posted and things look to be in order. It's the first time I've seen the game with new graphic and it they are a huge improvement on the earlier version I saw. They really capture the festive theme and I really like the graphical style.

One thing I might recommend is asking Gameland if they can print a pattern on the insert. Nothing fancy, just something fancy like a replicated design using some of the graphic elements you already have, like the stockings, gingerbread man and hat on a green background.

The linkup you made with making life blissful is a good move, but you don't have to send her a lot of copies. One is usually more than enough, so two or three would be very generous. Every copy that is sent to a blogger or a reviewer is money lost, although it can lead to a greater return by getting word out to potential customers.

Having read your post about Reddog Mercantile got me worried again. I had a quick look on his site and that raised my concern level higher.

This page shows his client list

https://reddogmercantile.com/shop/

According to that page he currently has eight clients. Clicking on their links four of those companies have nothing listed on Amazon. So half of his clients are currently receiving no representation at all.

Now this is interesting. One of his ex clients Fridolin puzzles now offers their products on their own Amazon listing.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fridolin-17362-Wooden-Letter-Puzzle/dp/B005X6CN8I

For an impartial assessment of what he can add to your retail sales I would contact them and ask them why they dispensed with his services.
They can be contacted on their own webpage at

https://fridolin-shop.de/IQ-Test/bamboo-puzzle

As another interesting side note they also sell traditional games of the wooden variety as well as links with a retailer in France.

https://www.lesjouetsenbois.eu/brands/fridolin-uk

Who knows, they might be a better retail partner with a better global reach as well as the ability to create a fairly simple Amazon listing.

From what you said I'm not entirely sure about the offer that has been proposed. Granting a person or company retail exclusivity is a big thing, because it cuts down on a huge number of retail outlets and it can also impact on your profits to a significant degree. You are in essence handing over a big slice of control relating to how your products are sold ( the timeframe of that contract being limited or unlimited spending on what you sign ).

For a small outlay of $150 you are potentially giving up retail control of your game. Looking at the arrangement from the perspective of Reddog that is an amazing deal. He puts forward $150 and he stands to recoup that along with a profit. Moving on he will receive $15 from the sale of every game while you will receive $7.50, 30 - 15 - 7.50 ( production costs ).

So in essence he stands to earn twice as much as you for spending a matter of minutes setting up an Amazon listing. Taking into account the time, effort and expense you have put into your game that seems like a very poor deal.

Normally when you make such an agreement ( usually for a much better return ) a walk away term is also included. Something like, if you don't sell x copies within any given month the contract ends. It protects the creator from poor performance on the part of the distributor.

Secondly, you should be thinking about the future. If the duration of the contract is unlimited and it does take off he will be in the driving seat when it comes to negotiations, not you. In respect to any future contract negotiations he will rule the roost and you will have to take what he gives you.

What you are thinking about giving away is a HUGE amount in return for a trivial $150 in the form of a pre-sale return. You could spend a day researching how to set up an Amazon seller account and do the same thing yourself without him.

Look at the numbers

1000 games @ $30 equals $30,000 in potential revenue.

Your spending currently includes $8,000 on artwork and $7,500 on manufacturing. So your costs to date are $15,500. If all of your games are sold via Amazon you will receive $15,000. That will be just enough to break even.

If he charges you the Amazon fees you will be running at a loss. Even if he doesn't the cost of storage probably means you will be even without the fees, unless you have a big garage.

In contrast Reddog stands to make $15,000 for just a few minutes work and an overall investment of $150 which he has a very good chance of getting back with interest on the sale of his initial 10 units.

Busting your nuts to break even while someone else assumes retail control of your product with the potential to earn $15,000 seem like a very poor deal to me. Especially when you will be putting a lot of extra work into generating interest in your game through marketing while he does, nothing.

To get an indication of the effort he puts into marketing the products of his clients click on the links for the products of his remaining four clients, scroll down and look at the best sellers rank box. None of the products he is representing are doing astounding business.

I'm guessing that EURO TOOL belongs to Reddog himself and the other companies are people he has met at craft fairs - he seems like a woodworker or tool specialist.

https://www.amazon.com/s/other?pickerToList=brandtextbin&qid=1569369169&...

I don't have the faintest clue what the Roberto Cavalli listing is all about ( I only clicked on it because I have a lot of clothes by him - jeans mainly ). However, the fact that it shows a t-shirt and a product outline for a DVD about knife slip joints doesn't suggest a professional eye for detail in his listings.

You need to clarify whether his exclusivity applies to just Amazon or all retail outlets and what the timeframe for the length of the contract is going to be, along with a strict get out clause to protect yourself and your game.

I would strongly advise you to spend a day researching how selling on Amazon works, list the game yourself, keep full retail control of your game and preserve the potential for you to actually earn a decent amount of money from all of your hard work.

Clear the Amazon stardust from your eyes. Amazon is a hugely influential company, but Reddog isn't representing Amazon he is simply one of a million everyday resellers representing himself.

So I would urge you to try and contact Fridolin. Doing business on the strength of the word given by a person you have only just met isn't entirely unreasonable in some cases. However, doing a bit of research about them before signing am important contract is generally the wisest route to take.

On another front, engaging with you and your project propelled me towards designing my own roll and move Christmas game. I haven't designed a game centred on a roll and move mechanic before so I saw it as an interesting challenge.

So thank you for motivating me to attempt something new.

The design work is all done ( took me a day or so ) and I will crank out the artwork over the coming week. Rest assured it is very different from your game. I don't hold with plagiarism or copying games with minor tweaks.

One additional comment

IF YOU SELL via Amazon.com WITHOUT any intermediaries... Well then you CAN sell the game for $30 USD. If your cost is $17.50 USD/unit, you would be making a good chunk of change. That's $12.50 USD/unit.

@BubbleChucks is right: why do you NEED an intermediary on Amazon.com?

Aside from the whole "control" issue, there is ALSO a HUGE financial difference. Would you rather make $2.50 USD/unit or $12.50 USD/unit??

Don't undercut retail stores (should you sell locally) and walk away with a respectable amount of profit, which you can either keep within the LLC. or pay yourself, wife, daughter, niece, etc.

This is VERY important... We all want you to succeed. And trust us, you are learning from our own "errors"!

While the initial excitement

While the initial excitement over this deal with Reddog Merchantile selling your game on Amazon may have you over the moon, as others are saying, look closer and protect yourself.

My personal advice is to walk away from that contract. You do not want to give someone exclusive rights without significant upfront investment and you certainly don't want to do it at cost (or worse, at a loss).

Combine all of this with Reddog Merchantile having nothing to do with games and a seemingly minor track record of Amazon selling, I'm not sure what exactly they are bringing to the table for you that you can't do yourself.

You CAN list your games on Amazon and fulfill them yourself from your home. You do not need to have them stored and fulfilled by amazon at some great expense. Yes, your listings get less recognition (but likely no less than Reddog Merchantile) and your customers will be paying somewhat higher shipping (aka: no free shipping from amazon prime membership) but that's ok.

Don't forget $180/year/pallet

Don't forget $180/year/pallet for storage at QML.

Quote:
One thing I might recommend is asking Gameland if they can print a pattern on the insert. Nothing fancy, just something fancy like a replicated design using some of the graphic elements you already have, like the stockings, gingerbread man and hat on a green background.

Um, the game is finished, so.. that might be a good idea for a second print run, but it'll be a while.

That was a lot of research on the Amazon distributor, BubbleChucks!

As for Amazon, I actually set myself up as an Amazon merchant about 6-7 years ago.. it's not that hard, and I didn't even have a full business set up at the time (a bank account, a DBA, etc.). Probably harder now, but still.. doable.

questccg wrote:But you know

questccg wrote:
But you know how a $1.00 USD Margin is LAUGHABLE. Let me do some KS_2.0 on what you have presented. I'd say the $1.00 is NOT income, it's a loss somewhere you have not already calculated. Now you've forgotten shipping to the Amazon.com WAREHOUSE. Let's say 12 games (2 boxes x 6 units/each). Shipping costs you $30.00 USD. So that's $2.50 USD EACH! (See you lost that dollar ALREADY!)

So your COST, all-in is $17.50 USD/unit. Let's for the sake of the argument say that at this point "You BREAK EVEN".

You'll never make the 5x multiplier, meaning you'll never be able to SELL to traditional Distribution (so maybe local stores may carry the game... I doubt I'll find it on a store shelf in Montreal... Unlike say... Scythe).

I say give yourself $2.50 USD as profit per game (it's low). So you SELL at $20 USD/unit. The MSRP is $40 USD and the Amazon.com price. You're making HARDLY any profit at this point. $5.00 USD would be BETTER ... but I know you want to LOWER the price (just a bit) to see if more people will buy the game.

My conclusion: $20 USD wholesale with $2.50 USD/unit profit. MSRP = $40 USD/unit (sold on Amazon.com).

That's some REAL numbers... All still "very low". You can't AFFORD to sell your game at $30 USD/unit. You're going to be in the RED and your margins will all be "fncked up".

Even with $20 USD wholesale... There isn't much room to WIGGLE. Again it's just my opinion, "take it or leave it"...

I just don't want you to get all messed up because you went TOO LOW. Trust me I know how it feels and it really is unfortunate but so very frustrating because you put your trust thinking "They've done this before" and then at the end of the day, there is ZERO (0) profit... and nobody is happy...

But it's your game... If you want it UNDERVALUED, that's your own decision.

Note #1: How I look at it is this (Top line vs. Bottom line).

$2.50 USD/unit profit.
$+0.50 USD/unit minor discount from SHIPPING.
$+1.00 USD/unit original $1 you might make.

= $4.00 USD/unit... Much more reasonable. So your RANGE is between $2.50 and $4.00 USD/unit in terms of NET profit.

Note #2: I know you want to THINK that every time you go to the Post Office to ship your games, you are going to get the SAME price... Well from my experience dealing with the Post Office, it's NEVER the SAME PRICE! (LOL) I know we laugh about it... But unless it's the exact two (2) boxes with 6 games each ... You won't have any negotiation power there. So that's why I said MAYBE a $0.50 discount. Like maybe $24 USD for 2 boxes... MAYBE.

Note #3: Before you make ANY deals, figure out YOUR cost to ship this to an Amazon.com warehouse. I could be WRONG and it could be HIGHER... IDK. Would definitely look into this... It's very important because it COULD put you in the RED if you don't price it CORRECTLY!

The game will be fulfilled by QuarterMaster, and the fulfillment will likely be $12.32 per unit. (NO USPS!!) Each game is 1.4kg so I rounded up to QM's 2kg price. I believe each shipping box is 10 games, but I'm confirming that. I'm also confirming with Reddog about who's picking up shipping costs, where he's fulfilling his games etc...Still a lot of information I need before I go ahead with him. As for the pricing, I'm just not concerned with profit this year. I'm concerned with building a community..FANs. I will continue to run the numbers, but the games that go for over $30 on amazon are all loaded with components etc.... My game is a simple component list, and a board. Again, my thinking is to build a community, then make a much larger order from manufacture and be neatly inside the x5 landed cost, and look for distribution etc....
I've paid cash for everything so far, and I'm still feeding my kids, investing my money, and paying off my home........If I didn't make a dime this year it wouldn't kill me. I will also be able to pay for the 2nd print run if that time comes. My business plan is 3 years to profitability. This year is just to see if I can find a few dozen people who love my game, that have never met me and have no reason to lie about their enthusiasm about the game.
At $30 my customer will pay about $43 with shipping. At $40 they pay $53. That's a big jump. If I print 4000 units I'm in the $4.19/unit realm if I print 8000 I'm in the $3.89/unit realm with Gameland. If I X's my current shipping ($1,500/1000 units) by 8 I get $12,000 shipping and around $5.39 landed cost per unit. I know ordering 8000 games is a long ways away, but by that time I would hope to have quite a community behind the game and therefore the confidence to order that many. At that point I can do x5 landed and be in the $26.95 retail realm which would be perfect.

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