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Tradewars - Homeworld: Inside the Game

We are now explaining to "the world" (via Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tradewarshomeworld/) the various in-game locations related to the "deck-building" aspect of our game.

For those curious about the "Tradewars - Homeworld" or if you just want to see some more "eye-candy" artwork, please feel free to consult our FB page.

We are taking a "cue" from Joe (Joseph E. Pilkus III) our Developer. It was his idea to reveal more about the internals of the game - so that people can know more about what to expect from our game.

Yes - we are removing some of the "mystery" about the game. But to be real honest, wouldn't you rather know what the game was about before you decided to actually back the game (via crowdfunding)???

Anyhow it seems fitting to introduce some more elements of the game - and we chose Facebook - because of the wider audience (aside from game designers but actual board game players).

For more up-to-date information, please consult our Facebook product page.

Thank you.

Comments

Goodbye, Mystery...Hello, Tradewars!

Folks,

We would love to hear from the card gamers out here, from whom we've received little feedback. Don't be shy...this is the time to be heard. For those that have played Dominion, the game that really changed the face of deck-building, to myriad other offerings in the genre, your comments will serve as our compass heading as we prepare for our Kickstarter journey and onto a number of exciting expansions in the future. While we certainly appreciate the feedback we've received from Facebook and BGG, it is from our BGDF colleagues that we hope to receive our most constructive critiques.

Cheers,
Joe

You really should have a BGG

You really should have a BGG entry for this game!

I would also suggest talking about it on The Boardgame Group facebook page. They're a very helpful bunch of gamers that number over 3000 at this point.

As for Tradewars .. it looks pretty, but that's about all I can say about it as I havn't really seen much else.

"Yes - we are removing some of the "mystery" about the game. But to be real honest, wouldn't you rather know what the game was about before you decided to actually back the game (via crowdfunding)???"

Well .. yes. There is a very large segment of people who, if they cannot actually read the full (near) complete rules for a game they will not back it no matter how much you promote it or show off the imagery.

As far as going to Kickstarter, there is more than plentiful advice out there on what to do and what not to do. Much of it I've shared here before. Open your KS page up to preview before going live and provide us the link. Let us give you advice on it well in advance. Don't rush it. There is no "must launch by" date.

Not very fond of BGG

Well my experience on BGG is mixed.

I posted some artwork and everyone was like "It looks really nice". But then it took a "horrible" turn for the worst when we started discussing the price per piece. The entire conversation went south with people be rather "irrational" in their thinking.

To sum it up, the people on BGG said "artwork is worth what people will pay for it". I disagreed and said that it should be sort of a collaboration (give & take). If the artwork is too expensive, how are we going to make a game with it?

People response was sort of "well you wanted great artwork, so expect to pay for it." Irrational thinking from some people that are not happy with whatever they are doing (not sure?) Bottom line, people were too aggressive (think douche-bags!)

For some of your other (valid) points, the entire "Rulebook" will be available to download from the Kickstarter. The rulebook has been reviewed several times over and we are on version #18.

I'd just take a read at the Facebook page if you want some more insight into the game. It's not like I am going to explain all the rules, but give a sort of introduction. And I have already begun to do that by presenting the "buy" piles for your deck (Deck-Builder).

With regards to the Kickstarter page - I have to finalize some reward tiers with the correct pricing. I am waiting for that information to confirm if everything is accurate. I don't want to share the page until my quotes come in to be sure everything is okay.

But don't worry those details should iron out in the next few weeks.

I am still awaiting four (4) more "The Game Crafter" prototypes. Maybe I'll try to go to one of the local stores and see if anyone wants to play?! I can give it a try - no harm in doing that... Not that the game needs more playtesting - I just want more people to play. And see their reactions and feedback.

I just bought my "Blue" and "Red" dice for my sets. Combined with my own Acrylic cubes - should make for very *nice* prototypes.

Right now I have explained three (3) in-game locations (decks) and will be adding the last entry either tonight or tomorrow. There are only four (4) "buy" piles in the game (currently - a fifth with the Expansion - but not yet).

You bring up valid points - take a read at the Facebook page - I've already covered HOW starships are configured (using the Capacity rule). And I will add the last "deck" which are the Tactic cards very soon...

There is also a Video about the game you can look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHrk71f78Uo

I can share that with the Design Community... It will help our "visibility" since we have under 500 views currently. This is turning out to be a TLDR post... So CHECK our Facebook and the VIDEO!

About the game

The rulebook used to be a WHOOPING 39 pages. I almost HALVED that amount using commando editing and with a smaller font. Now the rulebook is in a compact 20 pages...

Also the game's roles were revised after Joe and his various groups took to blindly playtesting the game. Now every role has a purpose in the game even though some roles are used more frequently than others.

Again check out the Preview video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHrk71f78Uo

That should explain the "First Edition" of the game. We already have plans for an expansion which will "re-introduce" Mission cards that allow you to build Tradeships and establish trade-routes with various planets.

So it's the BASIC game + enhancements. This will add some *new* dynamics to the original game. We have under wraps three (3) expansion ideas - each with their own "twist" for the original game. But they can all work together (my hope) and which means you can really have a DEEP, Tactical experience as well with Diplomatic Relations with various Trade-routes...

We're trying to keep the game SIMPLE for the First Edition, to be a sort of up to four (4) person "duel" (think a Magic 4 person experience) with some luck (initiative rolls).

questccg wrote:Well my

questccg wrote:
Well my experience on BGG is mixed.

I posted some artwork and everyone was like "It looks really nice". But then it took a "horrible" turn for the worst when we started discussing the price per piece. The entire conversation went south with people be rather "irrational" in their thinking.

To sum it up, the people on BGG said "artwork is worth what people will pay for it". I disagreed and said that it should be sort of a collaboration (give & take). If the artwork is too expensive, how are we going to make a game with it?

People response was sort of "well you wanted great artwork, so expect to pay for it." Irrational thinking from some people that are not happy with whatever they are doing (not sure?) Bottom line, people were too aggressive.

Oh, sure, I found your threads in the forums of BGG. What I was talking about was a product page. I don't know if you've submitted one yet or not, but you should. Lots of people like to add games to the BGG collection and rate/comment on them. It's just one tool in the arsenal.

Quote:

For some of your other (valid) points, the entire "Rulebook" will be available to download from the Kickstarter. The rulebook has been reviewed several times over and we are on version #18.

Good to hear.

Quote:

I'd just take a read at the Facebook page if you want some more insight into the game. It's not like I am going to explain all the rules, but give a sort of introduction. And I have already begun to do that by presenting the "buy" piles for your deck (Deck-Builder).

You bring up valid points - take a read at the Facebook page - I've already covered HOW starships are configured (using the Capacity rule). And I will add the last "deck" which are the Tactic cards very soon...

I've looked through the FB page. The only issue there is the information is disjointed and hard to follow when you really don't have context. That's why I can't really make an informed opinion on the game one way or another besides how it looks.

I can kind of see some of the concepts there, but without context and having it all together, I can't really make an informed comment.

Quote:

With regards to the Kickstarter page - I have to finalize some reward tiers with the correct pricing. I am waiting for that information to confirm if everything is accurate. I don't want to share the page until my quotes come in to be sure everything is okay.

Understood. You don't have to have those finalized in a preview page, but it's good to have it near complete at least. Just make sure you give enough time for people to comment and for changes to be made before it goes live!

Quote:

There is also a Video about the game you can look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHrk71f78Uo

I will make some time to look at that tomorrow.

Famous for one game

My goal - IF it works out is to successfully fund our game "Tradewars - Homeworld". If this happens - well then I will be interested in pursuing game expansions for the base set.

I know from my experience having designed games before & after, that TWHW is a special breed of game.

  1. It's entirely a card game - no board.
  2. It's a duel even if the setting is space.
  3. There is deep strategy in how to play the game.
  4. The game features scenarios which means more replayability.

All of this make TWHW out to be a "simple" game which is very FUN. The combination of games and mechanics is "exceptional". And I know because I have designed sh!tty games before & after! Well not sh!tty - just nothing special. TWHW is different...

Like (and Unlike) Dominion we have scenarios. So replayability of the game is pretty good. We want to develop three (3) expansions that will build upon the original game.

But unlike Dominion each player has his OWN cards. Each player has his own game set and cards are not inter-matched.

Some future considerations, the box will hold cards with sleeves (for those who want to protect their cards) and has extra wells for expansion cards as well. So when you buy an expansion, you can put everything into the ORIGINAL box (or that's what we are trying to do...)

IDK TWHW has been getting good reviews. My negative reviews were early on where *newbie* players felt there were too many decisions. They also felt that experienced gamers had the upper hand(?) Isn't that true for most every game out there??? Those players omitted the luck found in dice rolls where the ODDS are in favor of the DEFENDER (21 to 15).

So we simplified the base game a little - to focus on Space Battles. That reduced the analysis-paralysis. And we can bring back the EXTRA features in the first expansion... Where veteran gamers can enjoy the extra options that come with Tradeships and missions (Operations Central).

So please take a look at our video - check out our Facebook page and tell us your comments/feedback.

Bump

Anybody have any feedback from our "Preview" Video(?)

I know there are some "glitches" in the production (blurriness) and cuts... But does it properly present the game (to you)?

Here is some homework.Reread

Here is some homework.
Reread the posting on your Facebook. And edit out mistakes that you now discover.

Since new people will scroll down to see what it is all about.

One mistake is the 40% versus 60% win chance. You say this is +20%. That is incorrect. 60% is 50% higher than 40% ;) Think about it. But don't explain it in a silly mathematical way like I always do.
Say something along the lines that the defender has about 50% higher chance in winning a battle.

Good luck!

***

I watched the Youtube video.
Many, many,
Questions!?

And really, not to be a le dou che bag or something.

Why have you decided for a card with the resources on it? Doe this work better than having circles (or other big number tracking devices). Please explain your choice.
I can't tell if you subtract resources at a certain point in the game. Is it just adding up? Than I would rather call it technology instead of resources. Because resources are consumed?

Those 00, 01, 02, 03, 04 numbers in the downright corner. Why not just 0, 1, 2, 3, 4?

Homeworld health. I understand if you don't use 3d6 for that. But having all 18 numbers displayed is rather unusual as well. Print and cut is cheaper than assembling circles. I know that.
I will link to an example when I can find one.

I also have the impression that a lot has been left out of that video.
And why are there still so many cards with only stars?
Is it really that expensive? Or are they just stars on purpose?
You could select some other view on space pictures for the cards.
Plenty of editors that can let you make star skies for free.

Explanations

X3M wrote:
Why have you decided for a card with the resources on it?

Each card for your deck has a "resource" on the back of it. Resources will be used by the "Planetary Expansion" where there will be added bonuses for banking certain resources based on a mission with any given planet. Like for example "Medicine 2x"... If you BANK a medicine resource of value "2", the multiplier would kick in and you would earn "4" qS (or double).

X3M wrote:
Those 00, 01, 02, 03, 04 numbers in the downright corner. Why not just 0, 1, 2, 3, 4?

That is internal edition/card tracking information. It's not mean for the consumer specifically. It's to keep track of the base cards and expansion cards.

X3M wrote:
Homeworld health. I understand if you don't use 3d6 for that. But having all 18 numbers displayed is rather unusual as well. Print and cut is cheaper than assembling circles. I know that. I will link to an example when I can find one.

You use an acrylic cube to keep track of health. There is no assembly???

X3M wrote:
And why are there still so many cards with only stars?
Is it really that expensive? Or are they just stars on purpose?
You could select some other view on space pictures for the cards.
Plenty of editors that can let you make star skies for free.

This is a default image - until we Kickstart and FUND all the remaining artwork. Our artwork budget is $8,000 for just under 100 individual pieces of artwork. This also depends on our Stretch Goals. $8k assumes that we have reached a Stretch Goal of ALL UNIQUE artwork.

Some of you comments/questions I did not understand - so if you have more/other comments/feedback, please do not hesitate to ask.

Cheers.

Very Useful Feedback

X3M,

First, thanks for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive critique. I'm frankly underwhelmed by the level of response from others, ostensibly from a site geared around designers seeking feedback. But I digress.

Second, your points are quite valid. I hope the responses Kris has provided thus far meet the intent of your inquiries. As a developer, I'm always on the lookout for individuals and groups to play the game. I know Kris has a PnP planned for Tradewars, so hopefully you'll consider giving it a try.

Cheers,
Joe

So I've watched the video

Advises:
Fill in those empty stars with duplicates of your other artwork. You can write "Prototype" over it or something to let people know that there will be artwork there. Space doesn't look that well as a filler.

What's your planned pledge amount/goal? (This is probably the most defining factor which will decide if you'll fund or not. We've made a mistake there in our campaign and barely managed to get back on track).

Now this one is personal opinion, but I wasn't really impressed by the video. I didn't get an idea of how much strategy the game has. From the first glance it looked like "pick 3 cards, roll a die, rinse, repeat"
I think you need to show at least one choice example. Like "if i were to pick this card, it would allow me this, if i were to pick that card, it would allow me that".

Hope this helps.

I just checked out the video

I just checked out the video and the FB page, and here are a couple of thoughts:

As previously mentioned, the FB page is not a good source of information, if you are new to the game (I never played dominion) as the info there seems to be kind of detailed and presupposes basic knowledge of the game which I could not find there. If you could do a small (maybe 2 paged) sheet about the game, key mechanics and goals and stick it to the top of the page it would be more accesible for newcomers I suppose.

Love the artwork, (the stars are placeholders I suppose?), I would definitly be interested trying this rather than dominion as my first deckbuilder game. Do you plan to do a PnP version? Implementing this in Tabletopia would be possible in one day as components are mainly cards - would that be an option to let people try it out?

Mechanics: I like the approach (as I understood from the video) to have a kind of magic tg combat system where you self assemble your creatures (select strength toughness), that could be fun. I'm not sure though if I like the rolling for initiative, as it seems quite random if your ships even get to attack (could be frustrating to have that super strong ship that never gets to attack due to bad dice roles...)- are there cards modifying inititative to get higher chances to gain initiative? Maybe there could be "supportive" ships (like scouts) that are rather weak combat wise but increase the chance of winning initiative?

I found the amount of roles to choose from a little daunting, is there limited access or do you have all roles available from the getgo? Do you need so many different roles? How often are they selected?

Even by watching the video I did not get a good idea how the deckbuilding part of the game works - but maybe the problem here is that I don't know dominion.

All in all I liked what I saw and I will check out the KS.

Btw

I gonna second ChordCommander regarding the Role card.

What you could do is to have each role on a separate card and draw 3 at the beginning of the game.

That would give you more replayability. Since you won't have the same set of roles each time, as well as save you from analysis-paralysis.

Great Feedback!

ElKobold and ChordCommander,

Thanks for the precision with which you provided your comments. I'll recommend that Kris share his KS project page with a few individuals, including you, so that you can get a glimpse behind the scenes. As to your specific concerns/inquiries:

• Deck-Builder: I'm not a player, nor a fan, of Dominion, as it lacks an interesting theme. Kris is working with an author to make TWHW a very thematic game, with solid mechanics.

• Artwork: Charles is incredible in this regard, and you'll definitely have this level of artwork throughout the game. For now, the stars on the back are simply placeholders.

• Video: I may take on this task as the Developer, to provide a short 2-3 min video to provide an overview of the game and its most salient mechanics.

• PnP: Absolutely! Kris wants to get TWHW into many more hands and garner feedback from blind playtests. We have playtested it more than 100x, and I alone, have clocked several hours playing the solo variant, The Derelict.

• Roles: This is an exciting aspect of the game which has evolved over time. The idea of drawing Roles each turn bears investigation and playtesting, as TWHW should be fast and flexible and not subject to AP.

Again, thanks! I look forward to sharing more information as it's available.

Cheers,
Joe

@ For now, the stars on the

@ For now, the stars on the back are simply placeholders.@

Yes, I understand. What I'm suggesting is to use artwork as a placeholder instead. It will look better in the backer's eyes.

@ The idea of drawing Roles each turn @

Not each turn. Once, before the game starts.

That will help with the AP problem. Since a choice of 1 out of 3 is quicker, than a choice of 1 out of 10.

P.S.: this is simply my personal view. I`m not saying that you are doing something wrong.

Good luck with your game! And sure, I`d be happy to help with the project page etc. I've just went through that thing myself, so might as well share my observations :)

Some clarifications

Let's start with roles - because there seems to be a disconnect.

Roles

The game features ten (10) distinct roles. Roles are chosen once per turn much like in San Juan or Puerto Rico. It's an integral part of the game to determine WHAT it is you will do on your turn.

For example IF you choose the "Admiral" that means you are going to attack another player on your turn. If you choose the "Treasurer", you will be BANKING cards to move up on quickSilver (multiple effects - more starships, end-game goal, etc.)

If you choose one of the "re-tooling" roles, Captain-Commander-Engineer, what you are doing is effectively swapping out cards in your hand with cards on the table (in addition to drawing +1 Card for your hand). So you are saying something like: "Starship X, since I am a Captain, I will change it for Starship Y (in my hand)."

So the roles are intrinsic to the game. They are NOT optional.

IF you don't have the "Admiral" you cannot DEFEND nor ATTACK. IF you don't have the "Treasurer" you cannot BANK and therefore you cannot unlock starships or win the scenario (Tradewars).

Once you play the game - veteran gamers have also commented - the roles seem like a LOT, but you don't use all of them all the time. And add to that, veteran players said that they enjoyed having the right role when they needed it, especially the "re-tooling" roles.

Placeholder Artwork

Believe it or not, I don't like the "space" placeholder artwork either. But I don't want to detract from Charles artwork - therefore I am using the "space" placeholder artwork. I personally don't agree with using Internet artwork and then changing it all to something else.

Firstly all the Internet Artwork will look "different". Charles artwork is great and it looks and feels "similar".

And so I'm not going to search the Internet to TRY to find a "Gauss Riffle" image because that's what it should be...

Lastly, the "space" placeholder artwork SHOWS that we are looking to FUND the remainder of the artwork by using the funds from the Kickstarter. Our Goal covers only the artwork - we don't make a penny more. And that's not even unique artwork, that's with duplicates. A healthy +5k Stretch Goal allows us to have ALL UNIQUE artwork... Again not a penny left over.

Game Strategy

Believe it or not, this game has deep strategy for a duel. And you can play up to four (4) players together.

First and foremost, you have to CHOOSE what you will BUY. And you will want to mostly buy HIGH VALUE cards so your deck has strong scoring cards. But wait - if you don't balance with weaker cards, you may not be able to deploy a starship because all you have is high cards.

So you have to strike a balance with what you buy.

Second you must make the choice of "do I play it on the table" or "do I keep it in my Deck"? That's also an important decision. Why? Well if you use your strongest cards on the table, you will only have weaker cards to play and bank (or buy). That means you'll progress slower than opponents but you may be able to "destroy them all", if they don't gang up on you... More strategy.

Again you will need to balance power with capacity to bank.

Figuring out what cards you need on the table and the ones you would have in your deck is a tough choice. That's why the "re-tooling" roles are important... You can PLAY with the cards on the table, bring them back into your hand. Players can be real savvy with their cards.

It's not at all "play 3 cards", rinse and repeat. There's a LOT of strategy. And I'm saying this because compare to my other DUEL games - this game is particularly rich in strategy... and DEPTH.

Deck-building

You start with all the same eight (8) cards. They are either 1 or 2 points in value (4x 1 point, 4x 2 point). You refresh your hand to five (5) cards...

NOW deck-building begins. Not in the future and some point in time, etc. RIGHT AWAY - bang you are IN THE GAME. With the "default" cards, your buy power is at most nine (9) points and at least six (6) points.

How you spend those points is directly up to you...

And as I mentioned you want to balance between having HIGH SCORING cards and striking some kind of balance.

But from the getgo - you are IN the game... It's not going to happen later, at some time, you've got decisions to make and they start right away!

Luck, Chance, and Initiative

Okay this is a touchy one, because some people HATE chance.

So we have DICE ROLLING for Initiative rolls. What does that mean?

Once you have decided what starships you are going to attack with, you ALSO CHOOSE the DEFENDING starships you are attacking. Unlike Magic, where the opponent gets to declare blockers, the ATTACKING player does all the choosing.

He may decide to use TWO (2) WEAK starships to combat your medium starship.

It WOULD TOTALLY SUCK if combat ended RIGHT THERE! Don't you think that sucks: he just wins. Destroys your starship... because that's what the cards dictate.

We said NO. You need to figure out WHO has the TACTICAL advantage on that specific attack. If it's the ATTACKER, he wins. If it's the DEFENDER, the attack ends no destruction. IF you roll DOUBLES, then the whole attack/defend get FLIPPED and suddenly the DEFENDER may use his medium starship to destroy one of the two weak starships... LIKE THAT - BOOM!

So those dice rolls, while chance - add more DEPTH to the game.

Why should it be that the ATTACKER has the advantage??? Sometime it should be the DEFENDER... And then on those rare occasions, the attack goes south real bad and the DEFENDER gets to do damage!!! Makes it REAL fun!... Or piss the F- out of you. Either way, you are going to REMEMBER some of those god-damn rolls...! :P

Battle Tactics

And YES there are TACTIC cards which give a +3 Initiative roll (to either the Defender or the Attacker respectively). You can use a "Cloaking device" which last one (1) ROUND (all player play 1 turn) which means nobody can attack you or your starship - because it's there but hidden!

So there are a BUNCH (15 to be exact) different Tactic cards which play like Magic INSTANT cards. Those two can change the momentum of a battle. And seeing as you can play multiple Tactic cards per turn... There is really more depth in play.

Just remember you have to balance your deck - not just load it up with Tactic cards. Otherwise you'll have no starships to command or no crews or weapons to deploy...

Starship Correlation

To add some more strategy, I have purposely had starship CAPACITY go from "5" to "9". So even when you build a super-mega powerful starship, you need to choose IF it will be stronger ATTACKING (Firepower = 5) or DEFENDING (Resistance = 5). Because you will only have at most four (4) points for the OTHER card...

Anyways I hope this adds to the video - which is basic. I didn't want to reveal everything from the getgo. I wanted players to experience the game themselves and have the "you bast@rd" moments... That give this duel character...

And hopefully it's not over - we have expansions in the works to add more layers to the game...

Core game is "solid" but...

This game was DESIGNED for Expansion. There are reference cards and Scenario cards which change the way the game is played.

As such, I would open and welcome other Designers to create new scenarios or complete expansions for the game.

Currently on the "core" game which has been in development for over two (2) years - it is pretty solid as Joe mentioned, the game has been well playtested.

But for expansions, the "carte blanche" is our motto. So if you are a Designer that enjoys creating his own expansions for the games he buys, this game was designed for you! You can also submit your expansion to us so that you may be able to make royalties off your ideas...

We already have some expansion ideas (solid) but still open to the Design Community. So you're buying a game that will allow you to make your own expansions and "fuse" them with our expansion ideas or even have your own expansion be made and sold...

Contemplating the PNP version

Obviously there are some hard-core facts about any PNP we launch:

  • It will be available only at the END of our Kickstarter. No matter what the results (positive or negative).
  • It will NOT feature the storylines written by our writer Nerida Stuart. We will reserve these storylines to the actual final product.
  • It will not have any artwork (Except the game's new logo).
  • It will ONLY be Black & White (and greyscale logo).
  • It will include all cards and cardbacks.

We'll see because I'm not too familiar what is necessary for a PNP version. Hopefully I get some help in the area from another Designer...

We shall see - one step-at-a-time. I already have some B&W old AI cards from way back (early prototypes - version #7). Maybe I can re-use some of those to make the PNP - not sure about it - YET.

Not the best idea

questccg wrote:
It will be available only at the END of our Kickstarter. No matter what the results (positive or negative).

Not the best idea. Providing the PnP right away shows backers that you are confident about your design.

We've provided part of the game (4 heroes) as PnP. Colored, with all existing artwork included, as well as high-res printable image of a game-board.

The result was that some backers did print it out, played it, and went on to post positive reviews on the BGG and in the comments on the KS page.

Why would someone need a black&white-no-images PnP after the campaign ends?

FREE vs. pay/buy

ElKobold wrote:
Why would someone need a black&white-no-images PnP after the campaign ends?

Simple TRY before you BUY. I know I will have game sets left over from the campaign since I need to respect the MOQ which is 1,000 game sets. I highly doubt that I am going to get that many backers.

Which means there will be stock left over to be sold via a website, etc.

Also IF the campaign is successful, the PNP version will be available for all those people who will have to wait 1 1/2 years for the entire production. If you can't wait to play the game - you can play the PNP version (while waiting for the final version to arrive at your doorstep).

Also the PNP version is meant to spread word of the game. It will be FREE to download and therefore anyone will be able to get their copy and play the game... This is to encourage people to play the game and build up a following. You may not buy the game - but you might build it (PNP) if it is available at no cost.

But I want the PNP version to have limitations. For starters the idea behind the PNP is to get more people interested in the GAME (not pretty artwork). The game is real solid and a lot of FUN. As such the PNP will not be focused on eye-candy but the validity of TWHW as being a staple and probably a "gateway" game for casual gamers.

Secondly I don't want storylines that are "blurbs" to detract from the PNP mission. The "blurbs" are cool in the final product, they add some stories people can read and get interested in. But for the PNP the focus is on the game itself - not all the bells & whistles.

Does that sound reasonable???

My reasoning is IF the PNP version is available to everyone free of charge, it's because people want to PLAY the game. So the merits of having said PNP is to allow people to experience the game itself... And if they like it - they can buy it with all of the eye-candy and storylines, that we will have invested in making happen.

questccg wrote:The game is

questccg wrote:
The game is real solid and a lot of FUN.

You know that. Backers don't.

Why not give PnP _before_ the campaign?

Too much to do!

ElKobold wrote:
Why not give PnP _before_ the campaign?

Well to be real honest it's more of a question of timing. I'm pretty busy with my day job and putting the PNP is not on my list of priorities. I have a FREE FB Contest that I need to run, as well as prepare quotes for manufacturers and open up discussions with my fulfillment center (since there seem to have been some changes between 2015 and 2016).

I also need to develop the voting system that will be used by our FREE FB contest... I need to look into that further.

So the timing isn't good if I want to Kickstart in March 2016... Too much to do and not that much time remaining. Quotes should be valid for a specific period (like at least 3 months) - but it depends on each manufacturer.

The manufacturer I was dealing with before - has not gotten back to me. Which kind of worries me... So I have to e-mail another manufacturer just in case the first one doesn't reply. I already have estimates about how much it's going to cost - but now I need to finalize manufacturing cost and shipping costs.

That's all got to go down in February if I want to be ready for March. Plus the FB contest, voting system... There's already a lot going down. I don't have time to invest in making a PNP (at this particular junction).

There are 85 cards, 60 double-sided (not cardback - but specific mapping). So it's like doing the work in double...

Like I said, I can't picture the PNP being ready for the Kickstarter. The other issue is the PNP RULEBOOK. I need to port the format from 5" x 8" to 8.5" x 11" and allow you to print it like as if you are going to fold the letter page in the middle. It also needs to be B&W otherwise you are just wasting ink on the thing. That formatting is also complex and time consuming...

Everythings a little *tight* right now - I can feel things moving forwards but there is a lot that needs to get done BEFORE the Kickstarter can go-live...

Why are you rushing it then?

Why are you rushing it then? Start KS later, but with everything ready.

It's all about timing

If I don't get things moving - I'll miss out on the window for Summer Shipping. I don't want to be shipping in Winter ... I'm already slated to make it for August 2017. So by September 1st, 2017... Everyone should have their copies of the game (don't hold me to that - that's just the plan).

Yeah I could maybe have until October 2017 - but there could be production delays ... Things I am unaware of like "Chinese New Year" which not a problem if I ship during summer. Machinery repair or upgrades, etc.

Plus I need to plan for more than 3 months of shipping depending on the number of backers... I don't know how our campaign will go, it's tough to say. Yeah I'm worried - but if we fail, it's not then end... I have some ideas - to keep the project fresh.

But IDK - we'll have to see.

Update: I also forgot to mention that we want to have the game on Kickstarter during TAX RETURN season. When people have some extra disposable income. Granted our game is pretty inexpensive because of how we are selling the game ... so it's an EASY BUY. Again we'll see if backers agree or not!

CNY

Chinese New Year is already on the minds of manufacturers and workers. I've just put in orders but they won't finish until Mid March :(

Forget CNY think Publishers

I waited almost ONE YEAR for a Publisher to decide that they won't publish my game.

Seriously Hamish, if you've only got to wait 1 month, that's not at all a problem in my book...

Update: At least most of the playtesters liked the game. A couple game neophytes felt like the game offered too many choices. Veteran gamers loved the theme, the cards and game play. Even our roles were muchly appreciated by them...

[--- Edited: TLDR ---]

During our blind playtests we got a solid 6.5 out of 10. Granted we got some newbies that kind of spoiled the score... Otherwise our game would be a solid 7.5. That's pretty good IMHO (from veteran gamers)!

questccg wrote:If I don't get

questccg wrote:
If I don't get things moving - I'll miss out on the window for Summer Shipping. I don't want to be shipping in Winter ... I'm already slated to make it for August 2017. So by September 1st, 2017... Everyone should have their copies of the game (don't hold me to that - that's just the plan).

Yeah I could maybe have until October 2017 - but there could be production delays ... Things I am unaware of like "Chinese New Year" which not a problem if I ship during summer. Machinery repair or upgrades, etc.

Plus I need to plan for more than 3 months of shipping depending on the number of backers... I don't know how our campaign will go, it's tough to say. Yeah I'm worried - but if we fail, it's not then end... I have some ideas - to keep the project fresh.

3 months for shipping?? That's insane. Why so long?
Waiting over a year after a campaign ends is not very conducive to getting backers either. Do anything in your power to reduce that time to at most 6 months.

Quote:

Update: I also forgot to mention that we want to have the game on Kickstarter during TAX RETURN season. When people have some extra disposable income. Granted our game is pretty inexpensive because of how we are selling the game ... so it's an EASY BUY. Again we'll see if backers agree or not!

Tax return season means nothing according to all of the stats gathered over the years of KS. Success is based on having a solid product, marketing reach and having a significantly large following before you launch.

PnP during the campaign is good!

questccg wrote:

Well to be real honest it's more of a question of timing. I'm pretty busy with my day job and putting the PNP is not on my list of priorities. I have a FREE FB Contest that I need to run, as well as prepare quotes for manufacturers and open up discussions with my fulfillment center (since there seem to have been some changes between 2015 and 2016).

I also need to develop the voting system that will be used by our FREE FB contest... I need to look into that further.

So the timing isn't good if I want to Kickstart in March 2016... Too much to do and not that much time remaining. Quotes should be valid for a specific period (like at least 3 months) - but it depends on each manufacturer.

There are 85 cards, 60 double-sided (not cardback - but specific mapping). So it's like doing the work in double...

Like I said, I can't picture the PNP being ready for the Kickstarter. The other issue is the PNP RULEBOOK. I need to port the format from 5" x 8" to 8.5" x 11" and allow you to print it like as if you are going to fold the letter page in the middle. It also needs to be B&W otherwise you are just wasting ink on the thing. That formatting is also complex and time consuming...

Everythings a little *tight* right now - I can feel things moving forwards but there is a lot that needs to get done BEFORE the Kickstarter can go-live...

Sounds to me like you need to not be strict on w hen you launch. There is no "need to launch by" date. Get everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) in order before launch.

Print and Play options are a fantastic idea. Make it a limited portion of the game, without artwork, just to give people the flavour of the gameplay at the VERY least. Yes, it takes time, but it's time very well spent.

Controlling the cost of art

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
Why so long? Waiting over a year after a campaign ends is not very conducive to getting backers either. Do anything in your power to reduce that time to at most 6 months.

Well the artwork alone could take between 6 to 8 months. This is because Charles teaches 3 days a week and can only be available 2 days a week for our project. There are nearly 100 pieces of unique artwork. If people want great artwork well it's going to take some time to get it all done.

Given 3 variables: time, cost and quality, I chose "cost" and "quality". Time is decided by Charles availability in addition to doing other custom orders (for paintings and other artwork). We can't have it all (if you know what I mean). Sometimes it's important to make compromises.

questccg wrote: Well the

questccg wrote:

Well the artwork alone could take between 6 to 8 months. This is because Charles teaches 3 days a week and can only be available 2 days a week for our project. There are nearly 100 pieces of unique artwork. If people want great artwork well it's going to take some time to get it all done.

Is there any special reason to only work with one artist?

Hard to find good artists at a reasonable price

ElKobold wrote:
Is there any special reason to only work with one artist?

Other than trying to find an artist with similar "quality" at an affordable price? I don't want to "re-hash" the bad or elitist way of thinking on BGG.

Charles artwork is exceptional. And he is willing to deliver the project.

Finding another artist of the same caliber and who is willing to both A> Take on the project and B> Produce quality artwork at a reasonable rate is a difficult task.

But I get where you're going. If there were two or more artist it could take less time like 3 months - with people working in parallel.

From what I got (the hostility) on BGG, my way of thinking is incorrect and I'm getting too good of a deal on my artwork. That's the BGG conclusion from other "artists" (I'm not sure).

I've worked with a Marvel, D.C. comics artist who told me $100.00 per piece is a reasonable amount. Volume lends to discount as there are more pieces, then the price can be lowered a little. Charles has also agree to the overall price of the project and since we are earning USD Funds, that will go a long way in paying the CAD artwork...

It's like another designer who went to Poland to find an artist. Why? Because it was cheaper than dealing with a US Artist...

Update: And it's not RANDOM chance that I found Charles. Through my Marvel Artist (Geof) I met a marketer at a CON I attended with him. After Geof moved to Ottawa, he told me I should contact Anthony if I needed an artist for the game. Anthony works for the Arts school and said he had the right artist for the job: Charles.

I met Charles at his home - we discussed the project and the artwork. He sent me some of his samples to show what kind of artwork he could produce.

So I said, "Let's give it a try." I had a "vision" of what I wanted on the box cover and we started with that piece of artwork. For me it was like a composition. I wanted to have a Soldier that looked somewhat like a Jet Fighter Pilot but instead two breathing tubes...

And then Charles produced the box cover - which turned out really good.

With minimum guidelines for each card - Charles is able to render the artwork (which I believe is real nice - most people like what they see)...

Update #2: Just as an FYI, I work in IT and even our Consulting Projects, customers are more and more looking for FIXED Cost Consulting. That means no matter how many people or hours it takes, the amount PAID is the same.

It's a unfortunate reality in business these day.

You are missing the point.It

You are missing the point.

It doesn't matter how cheap/good your artist is.

If he can't do the job in reasonable time - hire some more.

And yes, it's not easy to find an artist to "fit" your project, but no-one said that crowdfunding is easy.

Not me...

I already have a agreement with Charles.

I'm not going to break that contract. If people want the game with HIS artwork - they are going to have to wait until he has sufficient time to produce it.

If we deliver the PNP (after/before whatever) it means people will be able to play our game. If they like, they can at least be assured that their investment in buying our game will allow us to produce exceptional quality artwork...

Meaning they might have to wait BUT they will get a quality product.

Then don't start the

Then don't start the campaign, until you have ~3 months until you get all the artwork.

A Delicate Balance

One of the fascinating things I've noticed in this industry, is with the transparency that the Internet has provided is paralleled with possibly unrealistic expectations.

Years ago, designers and developers worked on games behind the great veil until revealed to everyone only when it arrived on the shelves. Today, we see, as it's indelicately stated, how the sausage is made.

Of the myriad virtues we need in the industry is patience. Hopefully, as we progress, and understand more of the inner-workings of the board game business, we all show patience with one another and the games we love.

Cheers,
Joe

Joe, Sorry if I sounded

Joe,

Sorry if I sounded harsh, or something.

I`m in the middle of the campaign right now and we've just entered the last 48hrs.

And if I've learned something over the last 16 days is that backers mostly don't get into details of why something is not as they expect.
Regardless if it's justified or not.

And it's understandable, with the amount of competition out there, there's plenty of choice. My guess is that people won't wait for a game for a year, they will simply pick up an alternative.

I`m only sharing my personal experience here. It's up to you guys to take it or leave it. Maybe I`m wrong and you are right. Only time can tell.

Good luck in any case!

No harm, ElKobold

I've been there, and I certainly understand the pressures. I wish you the very best with your campaign.

Cheers,
Joe

The Professor wrote:One of

The Professor wrote:
One of the fascinating things I've noticed in this industry, is with the transparency that the Internet has provided is paralleled with possibly unrealistic expectations.

Years ago, designers and developers worked on games behind the great veil until revealed to everyone only when it arrived on the shelves. Today, we see, as it's indelicately stated, how the sausage is made.

Of the myriad virtues we need in the industry is patience. Hopefully, as we progress, and understand more of the inner-workings of the board game business, we all show patience with one another and the games we love.

Cheers,
Joe

Hi Joe,

The industry has patience. Oodles of it. It's the consumers who do not.

You are correct. Years ago things were worked on behind the scenes for sometimes years. The difference is that the end consumer was not being asked to pay for those things in advance. It was completely funded by the industry behind it.

Skip forward to Kickstarter and any other crowdfunding source. When asking the consumer to fund your game, they are entirely within their rights to have high expectations. They are already forking out money up front for a product that they hope to receive in due time and that they hope will live up to the hype around it (Both of which have frequently not happened over the past few years around KS projects). To ask them to pay now for something they will (hopefully) receive in over a years time is, quite frankly, excessive (in the eyes of a consumer).

Patience is not an issue for the industry; The industry has all the patience in the world. It's a consumer reality that they want what they have paid for, quickly.

I do sincerely hope Tradewars succeeds.

I do hope you and Kris take the criticism being provided by those who have been there and done that to heart and in the spirit in which it is being provided. It is merely meant to provide helpful advice. Some of that advice may at times come across as harsh sounding, but it is still helpful advice. How you choose to receive that advice is of course entirely up to you.

I have given Kris a lengthy list of notes that he has taken and used most of already. I now feel there is little more I can offer than I already have, and so I will bow out of the conversation unless something else comes to light.

Great precision!

Thanks for the comments as what you stated really drives at the heart of matter. There are certainly members of the designer/development arena which could use patience, but by and large the community of these folks take the time they need to hone their craft only revealing their game to an awaiting public, long after it has passed through many stages of play-test and rules development.

I'm blessed to work on two very different projects, Tradewars and TAU CETI ~ both have a space-related theme, but that's where the similarities end. You are absolutely correct in identifying that advice "may at times come across as harsh sounding" but in reality, any feedback should be sought, analyzed, and if necessary, acted upon.

Cheers,
Joe

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