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Looking for feedback

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 12:47
Stainer
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Hey guys and gals,

Just looking for some industry information and trying to get a feel for how well a gambling game would be accepted. I've developed and built a card game that uses special playing cards (not the standard 52 cards) and I want to introduce it to the game market. I've built a prototype and have played it several times with friends and strangers. Everybody says they love the game and that I should manufacture the deck and sell it.

Before I do though I want to get some information. How many people would be interested in playing a 'poker' type game on custom cards? My thought is that people will just play texas hold'em and forget about my game. The question I'm asking myself is "Why would people switch to my game"? Are people bored of texas hold'em and are looking for something different? From the people I've showed my game too (which is alot - around 75 people have played it and around 100 have seen it played or I've told them about it) they all agree it's on the same level as texas hold'em. One problem I see is that in my game the card hands are ranked similar to poker hands - with a straight, a flush, a pair, etc. all being part of the hand rankings. Is that too similar to poker? Will people think I'm ripping them off because it's too similar?

I'm looking for some input and some constructive thoughts on this. Feel free to say something, I appreciate all responses.

Thanks,

rd

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 13:29
#1
NetWolf
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Can it be played with a standard deck of cards?

Texas Hold'em is going to remain popular because of advertising. Don't expect your game to overthrow the media-whore champion.

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 14:11
#2
Stainer
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technically it could be played with standard cards, but you'd have to change a few of the rules around. It is possible though.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Thanks for the response

rd

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 14:32
#3
NetWolf
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Well, it's good in that you could simply design new faces for a standard deck of cards and include the game in the deck as a 'rules' card. This would make your job a bit easier.

It's bad in that once people figure out that the game can be played with a standard deck, they may no longer want to buy your special cards.

Then again, it's all in how the game is designed and marketed. Look at Uno for example. It's nothing more than a g-rated version of the drinking game A$$hole.

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 14:49
#4
Jpwoo
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Are your hand rankings the same as poker?

In general I would say that if you game is just a poker variant you shouldn't need to publish it. There are so many variants out there already.

Most card games that get published go out of their way to make sure they can't be played with a regular deck of cards (Lost cities, Rage, David and Golaith?, Tichu etc)

I think that having a good unique poker variant is a nice thing to put up on a website and offer for free.

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 15:01
#5
Stainer
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It's not really a poker variant. The deck is made of 80 cards in four different colours. Each colour has the number 1 to 10 included twice - so there's two blue 1's, two blue 1's, ... two blue 10's, two yellow 1's, two yellow 2's, ... two yellow 10's, etc.

The hand rankings are similar to poker - you can get a pair, straight, flush, flush-pair, straight flush, triple, and a triple-flush-pair. I haven't actually worked out the probability of the hands yet... might need some help with that one (any takers??)

My goal was to design a commerical gambling game that could sell along side poker chips in stores.

rd

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 16:37
#6
NetWolf
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See....the problem with what you just described is a poker variant the requires two decks with the face cards removed. The only difference is the colors which could easily be represented by suits. It's a good idea, but you need to tweak it a bit more.

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 16:44
#7
Stainer
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Thanks for the feedback NetWolf. I think you're right. Any ideas on how I can pull it away from the poker resemblance? That's one thing I've been working on and I can't seem to get away from the same hand rankings. If you have any ideas I'd love to hear them. Thanks again,

rd

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Tue, 02/14/2006 - 17:07
#8
seo
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A few suggestions:

-Five suits (that solves the 'deck can be replaced with a normal deck' problem.

-New hands, non existent in Poker (e.g.: all odd cards of the same suit, any three cards adding 15, etc.)

-adding special cards to the deck. Maybe some joker-like cards that can just be included in some of the hands (like a straight-joker and a four-of-a-kind joker, etc.)

From what you described, right now you would be selling the chips and the rules, more than the deck of cards. I would change the deck so it's unique, and worry less about the chips. I like the idea of a gambling game, but don't care too much if I gambe with poker chips or beans or matches. Texas Hold'em sets sell mostly because of all the TV coverage the varian has had lately, but I don't see any sets of Howdy Dowdy Poker or Pass the Trash Poker, etc. Without the TV hype, they're just a standard card deck game. You can use whatever you have handy instead of poker chips. If you require a custom deck, OTOH, I'll need to buy your game to play it.

Just my 2c.

Seo

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Wed, 02/15/2006 - 09:17
#9
Stainer
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Thanks Seo. That's good advice. I like the examples about changing the deck you provided also.

The idea seems simple enough. I'll put something together and let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks again for the heads up.

Rob

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Wed, 02/15/2006 - 12:53
#10
jwarrend
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Stainer wrote:
I think you're right. Any ideas on how I can pull it away from the poker resemblance?

It's easy enough to think of rules tweaks to make the rules of your game slightly different from poker. The bigger issue you must contend with is how to make the player experience different from that provided by poker. If the things that make your game fun are the same things that are fun about poker (eg, bluffing, pressing your luck, etc), then there's no appeal.

To see this, consider a fictional game called "Chiss", which is identical to Chess except the piece movement rules are changed slightly -- perhaps players get two queens, or the knights can move forward one space in addtion to their "L" move, or whatever. The strategies for the game would feel a bit different, but chess lovers would be unlikely to abandon chess to play "chiss". In contrast, the game "Knightmare Chess" adds cards to the base game. Here, something of substance has been added to the player experience: in addition to the strategic layer, now chaos is injected via the card play.

Same thing with your game. If it's poker with different hand valuations, it will feel like poker with different hand valuations. There has to be something that makes the game "feel" different to the player, and it has to be different enough that it's a fundamentally different game.

-Jeff

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Wed, 02/15/2006 - 13:27
#11
slam
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The post brings to mind two card games I played growing up with my family. One we called "German Bridge", and the other we called "Chau-Di". Both used standard decks.

German Bridge is a trick taking game in which each player bids on how many tricks they can take. The sum total of all of the bids in each round cannot equal the number of cards in their hand. The number of cards in each round go up from three in the first round to the whole deck.

In Chau Di the players are dealt all of the cards in their deck. The goal is to get rid of all of their cards using poker hands. Single cards must be topped by greater single cards. Pairs must be topped by pairs, etc. Five card combos must be topped by other five card combos.

Nowadays, you can find German Bridge being sold successfully as "Wizard" after a retheming and good artwork, and Chau Di is now sold as "Tichu" after a number of special cards and more elaborate rules (partnership, card passing, etc).

So all that is to say: if you do it well, it can be done.

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Wed, 02/15/2006 - 14:10
#12
Stainer
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That's a good point Slam. I look at Uno and I see a childhood game I grew up on - Crazy Eights. The same goes for The Great Dalmuti. That's the same as a childhood game I played - called Asshole - except with a few changes, nothing fundamental.

Jeff I understand what you're saying too though. Why would players play a rip-off chess game when they can just play normal chess? I think that's because nothing can match the authenticity of the real thing. Why play a fake when you can have the real thing? It goes without saying people always want the real thing. Unless, of course, the fake offers some benefit (lower price, better piece quality, awesome artwork, etc) that would entice a buyer to purchase it over the real deal.

I think with cards it's slightly different. The reason I think so is because a standard deck of cards can be used for so many different games and alot of the games have the same element. A deck of cards is more like a toolbox and not looked upon as a single game. Look at all the variations of poker that exist. Alot of them have the same elements as each other - bluffing, dealing, building combinations, etc - yet they are all played. I myself play many different varieties of poker. Then look at commercial card games like Uno. It's definantly got that authenticity factor going for it. If I re-created a 'different' Uno, then likely nobody would buy it.

Good discussion.

Rob

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