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Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

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Anonymous

I have a lot of questions.

a)what for you folks out there... defines Wargame?
2)what are your pros for a wargame?
3)what are your cons for a wargame?
4)do wargames have to be counter and hex games?
5)are wargames a dying breed being supplanted by different types of boardgames. (perhaps abstract, german, special theme)

My first game idea is, I think a wargame. I'm just not sure. That may sound silly but I really have seen a lot of 'wargames' that to me wouldn't really be classed as such. I'm wondering if I automatically slot my game in a wargame pigeonhole if it's going to be unfairly marked?

Hope you can help.

Dralius
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Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

Off the top of my head I will say a war game involves a conflict between two sides. Have I over simplified as usual?

The main mechanic of the game revolves around capturing or eliminating opponent’s game pieces.

The goal may be varied but commonly is area control, capture the flag, or elimination of you opponent’s pieces.

The up side of war games is that the theme is unfortunately easy to relate to. If you call a piece a soldier or platoon people immediately can relate with it.

As for down side my first thought was to say that they are long evolved games. I have not played the modern war games. I was once a grognard in training having played allot of AH games in the 80’s and early 90’s. I don’t think that needs to be part of a war game. It could be about a border skirmish or less specifically a small conflict that can be played in an hour or less.

The games do lend themselves to counter based play. It does not need to be hex based. You can do all sorts of boards. Risk is a simple war game and in the abstract Chess is too.

War games are not as popular as they were 20 years ago. I don’t see them as dying breed. A new way of approaching then may be all that is needed to revive them to prominent status.

Anonymous
Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

Pros for a wargame : Battlefield strategy. large movements, and observation. things I like to do in a game and am good at.

Cons for a wargame: time involved (3-4 hours is too much for me), money needed. (either the game is expensive or it is a tabletop mini game.)

zaiga
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Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

To me a wargame is mostly a theme, coupled with mechanics of direct confrontation, and annihilation of opponent's unit and/or resources. I also think a wargame has a map of the area of conflict and players controlling units on that map.

Based on that description games like Wallenstein and Memoir '44, and even a game like Hellas could be classified as wargames. However, I think this is not what the "general" public will think of when they hear the term wargames. When they hear wargame they think:

- Tons of units, counters, chits, look up tables
- Historical accurate
- Very long
- Very complex

I think the classic, long and complex wargame is indeed becoming a very rare breed. The market for such games is simply too small to make it feasible for a publisher to produce such a game. However, I think it is perfectly possible to make a game with a war theme and mechanics based on direct conflict if you manage to keep the level of complexity and the playing time down to moderate levels.

OrlandoPat
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For a *lot* more info on wargames, check out: http://theminiaturespage.com/

From my part, my first thought when people ask about wargaming is games like CLS, Warhammer, and those sorts. However, I think a fairer definition would have to include any game that offers a simulation of war.

Zzzzz
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Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

"Wargame", multiple ppl involved in a game of stragetic confrontation, in the attempt to gain control over X (where X is resources, land control, etc).

The pros of wargames seem to be the "thinking" aspect. As with Chess you are trying to out plan, manuver, think your opponent. If created well, they should remove the sense of random wins (though it is always fun to see the underdog pull out a victory). Wargames always seem to bring out great emotion in players...

The cons, most are just to long and thse days expensive. Depending on the person playing (ME) some tend to get way to complex. To many numbers and tables flying around, which does not help when trying to keep the length of game down.

I dont think wargames have to be counter or hex games. I think the hex is a direct result of most movement systems in wargames. As others have pointed out, Risk does not use hex and it is one of the main stream wargames out. I know I just said I dont think counters have to be part of wargames, but I cant think if a game right now that has units and not a means of using counters to track the units. So maybe someone could point out a wargame without unit counters?

Wargames are not dying, they just have a specific part of the market, just like most RPGs these days. Not everyone will play wargames or RPGs, but there are still enough ppl out there. You should check the GenCon.com website, they usually have an exhibitor package that breaks down the number of ppl whom attended and play mini/wargames. Might help you see that size of the market.

Hedge-o-Matic
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Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

a)what for you folks out there... defines Wargame?
I think that the distinction between Wargame (ie Squad Leader) and Abstract Strategy game (Chess) is that wargames rely on a mechanic involving an element of luck, whereas Abstract Strategy games shun all luck in play, usually. Typically, wargames are simulations, and abstracts are theme-free, for the most part.

Since wargames simulate a "real" combat environment, and involve the element of luck, they usually involve some degree of math to play, even if it's just adding a modifer or two to dice rolls. Historically, though, the "simulation" aspect of a true wargame has heaped not only numerical complexity into play, but also lessen the effect of the random by adding, ironically, more random elements that cancel each other out through the laws of averages, rather than taking random elements from the game.

Lastly, all games are conflicts. You are opposed to the other players, or to some common enemy. But wargames are simulations of actual fighting on some specific scale, and they are built theme-first, with the gameplay elements supporting the theme, rather than the other way around.

2)what are your pros for a wargame?
Wargames protray situations that are dramatic, and the same for all players. It's easy to imagine armored columns charging across the frozen interior of the Soviet Union, and an advancing line of ounters is similarly menacing, in its way. The victories, ironies, and defeats of wargames are on a given scale, and so the players can ralate the game events to larger events.

Even the most dramatic turnaround of an abstract strategy game will lack this connection. The victory is all intellectual. But the stories that are created in the players head during a wargame are completely different. Even the random elements strengthen this appeal, since a beleagured player can always hope that their strategy can maximize their chances, and even the winning player must be careful to keep the weight of averages on their side, lest they suffer unexpected defeat. This nail-biting element is different from hoping your opponent makes a mistake, since luck can turn even against the best player.

3)what are your cons for a wargame?
Well, they are very specific, usually, focussing on a particular war or battle, and thus lose interest with repeated play. "Generic wargames", such as Warhammer Fantasy Battles have a wider appeal, but even so, they are built theme-first. P,layers uniterested in that theme -even die-hard wargamers- win't be interested. Non-gamers will be completely uninterested, of course, a problem most abstract strategy games avoid. Almost everyone will play chess at some time.

Since wargames are built theme-first, gameplay is often fiddly, complex, or awkward. As they are designed to simulate a situation, rules are generated at alarming speeds, making big, inelegant games. Since it's easier to crank out additional sub-rules and clauses to "fix" gameplay problems as they occur, few wargames go through a trimming down process, and the results are the sort of heaped-board, bucket-o-dice hex-fests people usually associate with the term wargame. The design of a wargame usually doesn't take into account the effects of emergent complexity, while abstract strategy games embrace it as the highest ideal. the idea here is that complexity comes through play, rather through rules. Even a few rules, given the massive variation of even a chessboard, will cause complexity to arise naturally. In wargames, complexity is built into the rules, and the designers, frankly, simply can't forsee the dizzying possabilities. Thus wargames are frequent catalysts for real-world irritation and frustration.

4)do wargames have to be counter and hex games?
No, but the concept of scale is important in wargames. The playing field must, even if losely, represent a given space, and the turn should be of sime given timespan. The board divisions are unimportant, but the idea that the board represents real space is very important. Miniatures wargames, which generally don't use hexes or boards, have a scale either implied by the size of the pieces themselves, or given in the rules.

5)are wargames a dying breed being supplanted by different types of boardgames. (perhaps abstract, german, special theme)
Since my interest in recent years has been much more the abstract strategy game, I'd have to say that no, the wargame isn't a dying breed. But what was good about wargames -accuracy, huge units, a complex resolution chain- are generally faster and "better" when done on computer. Thus the wargamers are all going to computer-based wargames, leaving the field to the "german" boardgame crowd as the loudest and most visible group. But the wargamers are still out there, believe me.

Anonymous
Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

1. I would define wargame as a game that simlutes fighting between large groups of opponents.

Most people would call Chess or Go too abstract to be a war game. Likewise, games like Heroclix or D&D don't use armies so much as individual heros.

So a wargame doesn't have to be complicated like Axis & Allies, it can be as simple as Risk.

Most wargames have the mechanic of controlling territory, and I'm sure some people would say it's even required (though I wouldn't.) By this definition a game like Stratego wouldn't be called a wargame.

Wargames also tend to involve several players (as opposed to just two), but I don't think anyone would strictly define a wargame in this way. Likewise, wargame tend to be historically based, but they do not have to be.

2. Historical simulations are an excellent way to interest people in your game. If you base your game off the Civil War, you'll probably get a lot of Civil War buffs who will at least give it a try.

I personally like Ancient History, so something like Mare Nostrum leaps out at me much more than Zerts.

Also, I love to concentrate on a single, epic game for hours after hours -- my ideal war game would take at least half a day to play. Rules that give the player a lot of options also interest me because they provide lots of brainfood.

3. People who don't like playing long game will be turned off by most wargames. Also, many people don't like complicated games. Wargames don't have to be this way, but IMHO the best ones are.

Still, there are ways to make a game deep, yet still have simple rules. If you are thinking about making a war game, aim for a set of rules that can be explained in a few minutes but still leave many options. (One way of doing this is creating a complicated game board.)

4. I'm not sure what you mean by counters, but you definately don't need hexes. Some war games don't even have maps. Take a look at Age of Mythology (well, it's not a stereotypical war game, but that's my point anyway).

5. War games are down, but not out. Even if they don't resurge for a long time, there will always be a devoted few who continue to play them. Think of it as a niche within a niche :wink:

Anonymous
Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

thanks guys, you've given me an idea of what strata my game should fit into. that makes it easier for me perhaps to put it together with the proper framework to appeal to the proper people.

ycyclop
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Questions on wargames... lots of questions.

Just to add one very improtant con of wargames (it is one of the main reasons why my group stopped playing wargames, other then time limits):
If it is a multi player game with no historical reference so there are no predefined teams you have this effect:
two (or more ) people joining force to wipe out a player they think will be a threat to them (for example: he on the last game). and in many wargames I played it is hard to counter this.
so you get a long game that one or more players sit on the side of the table just looking getting bored and will not play the game again

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