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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

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Brykovian
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Please use this thread for any commentary and/or question-asking regarding the November 2005 GDS Challenge.

-Bryk

Nandalf
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McQuestions

a few questions bout the comp:
how many players is it for?
what age range? ie. adults, children or both?

think thats all...

Nandalf.

Gogolski
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Quote:
how many players is it for?
what age range? ie. adults, children or both?
If not specified in the limitations, you can do as you like...

Cheese!

Brykovian
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Indeed: Cheese! :-D

Carry on,
-Bryk

p.s. In other words, Gogolski answered it perfectly. ;-)

sedjtroll
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'water'?

So does it necessarily have to be a body of water? Or is the idea that you've got a medium in which you're working, bounded by whatever...

So for example, instead of water and islands, could you use Outer Space and planets?

For another example, would it be breaking the spirit of the rule to say that your 'body of water' is simply a city and your 'points-of-interest' are specific places in that city (roads as waterways, locations as islands, etc)?

Or do you want the theme to incorporate actual water?

Torrent
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Where is the separation between part of the game mechanics and a minigame?

I guess the first thing that came to mind reading all of this was Pirates Cove. You do a little dice fest when you meet another pirate. Is that a Mini-Game in the spirit of the contest, or is that part of the mechanics of the game?

Andy

Brykovian
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Good question Seth ... Despite my other "looser" definitions, I do actually mean a body of *water*. So, outer space won't work -- unless you are sailing on a lake on a far-away planet.

-Bryk

doho123
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

little confused by this:
Mystery List - The List of items that a player must complete cannot be known before the game starts, and should likley be different each time the game is played.

How do you define "cannot be known before the game starts"? What if your first rule is "At the start of the game, give everyone their list". or are all lists secret for the entire length of the game? Or is this to be interpreted as each list is kept secret from the other player's at the start of the game?

OutsideLime
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Ahhh yes! A GDS that fills my quivering heart with enthusiasm! Thank you, Bryk! (I mean, "Academia"?, I tried, I really tried, but I just couldn't get the ol' motor running on that one.)

~Josh

Hamumu
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Just trying to comprehend the component we're required to include... a "double dice" is functionally equivalent to two different colored dice, yes? And the "3 in a cube" is functionally equivalent to... well, 3 dice that are very difficult to lose. Or is there some mystical power in these cubes I have not yet deciphered? I guess you could consider special events when the dice end up stacked in a 3-in-a-cube, but that looks like a very uncommon event.

Not objecting to them, but I do want to understand what I'm using!

Nandalf
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

im with hamumu on this, the double dice look like the equivalent to 2 standard dice... so ivewritten the rules assuming so, but if they're shady ninja dice, let us know lol

Brykovian
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

doho ... I think you might be trying to make it more difficult than it is. It simply means that you can't have a game where players *always* go get the same thing each game. Part of the game needs to be the acquiring of the list itself ... even if it's a one-line thing, like "hand each player an Item List Card" where the card comes from a deck of many cards. Lists may or may not be secret within the game. I'm trying to avoid games where all you do is run around and look for a single thing, like gold, for example.

OL ... Thanks -- glad it gave you a spark.

Hamumu ... Right. Except that you might be able to think up something unique in using a die-inside-a-die. Then again, maybe not. It probably has more of a physcial/visual effect than a game-mechanic-changing effect ... but I'll leave it up to ya'll to get all creative with the thing. I thought they looked kinda cool -- but there's nothing otherwise magical about them.

-Bryk

Torrent
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Bryk,

Did you miss my question since we posted it at the same time? Just some clarification on the distinction required for a mini-game to be such rather than just part of the mechanics. Or am I missing something here?

Andy

Brykovian
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Hi Torrent -- I did miss your original post, sorry ...

A mini-game would be embedded within the course of the larger game. However, it would be a distinct point where the players involved would essentially stop to conduct a small, quick contest of some sort that would result in an individual winner in that one instance, which would then play a role with continuing on with the larger game.

Think of changing Shadows Over Camelot so that when a knight gets to a challenge -- say fighting the Picts -- there is a quick series of dicerolls or card-play to determine whether that challenge has been won/lost before the game continues. In this example, the dicerolls/card-play would be the mini-game.

Does that make it a bit clearer?

-Bryk

jwarrend
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Just to make sure I have this correct, the rules mandate that the set of items that a player is seeking should change from game to game, but they do not forbid the items being sought from always being found in the same location from game to game; is this correct?

Thanks,

Jeff

Brykovian
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

You have it right, Jeff.

-Bryk

Xaqery
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Does anyone know if those double-dice can float? Are they water tight?

- Dwight

seo
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Xaqery wrote:
Does anyone know if those double-dice can float? Are they water tight?

- Dwight

So I'm not the only one thinking about a real water board... :-)

Seo

Brykovian
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Xaqery wrote:
Does anyone know if those double-dice can float? Are they water tight?

For purposes of this Challenge ... let's say that they *are* water tight ... and that you can get sinking *or* floating versions. ;-D

-Bryk

Hamumu
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Just out of curiosity that has nothing to do with any hair pulled out of my head all day yesterday, is there any leeway on the 800 words, given that this contest requires 2 minigames inside a game? Like say maybe 150 or 200 extra, just for kicks?

seo
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Hamumu wrote:
Just out of curiosity that has nothing to do with any hair pulled out of my head all day yesterday, is there any leeway on the 800 words, given that this contest requires 2 minigames inside a game? Like say maybe 150 or 200 extra, just for kicks?

Don't-tell-anyone, but-using-hyphens-instead-of-spaces-will-make-Word-count-it-as-just-one-word, thus-allowing-you-to-avoid-being-limited-by-the-800-word-limit.

;-)

Seo

PS: removed a couple hyphens. It was too annoying to have such a wide line.

Gogolski
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Hamumu wrote:

Quote:
Just out of curiosity that has nothing to do with any hair pulled out of my head all day yesterday, is there any leeway on the 800 words, given that this contest requires 2 minigames inside a game? Like say maybe 150 or 200 extra, just for kicks?
Same here... I'm getting ideas sparked by this GDS, but I feel it will be like the "gadget"-showdown, where I started cutting ideas off, to keep it 'explainable' in less than 800 words (That one ended with 600-and-a-fart-of-words after cutting out the finer mechanics and details, while still showing off the spirit and basic rulest of the game...)

While I don't want to butcher too much of the ideas I have, I think that the 800 word limit is a great thing. It has been said before by several people:
"The GDS is also an exercise in producing a short but understandable/clear ruleset."

So I vote for 800, altough I know it will either hurt my entry or even make it again impossible to enter this month.

Well, just my 2000 euros... (for whatever they are worth...)

Cheese!

[EDIT]

I might ask again in a couple of days, if anyone is interested in a cooperative design if my design doesn't work out for this showdown.

I'll post an announcement here if that will be the case. => Anyone with the same problem (being unable to finish your design), who would be interested in pouring the creative juices together can then message me for trying together to come up with something before the deadline.

[/EDIT]

Cheese again!

Xaqery
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Hamumu wrote:
Just out of curiosity that has nothing to do with any hair pulled out of my head all day yesterday, is there any leeway on the 800 words, given that this contest requires 2 minigames inside a game? Like say maybe 150 or 200 extra, just for kicks?

These were my first thoughts when I read the challenge. While I have no GREAT ideas yet only a few disjointed ones I think the mini-game requirement should add words.

- Dwight

Brykovian
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Hamumu wrote:
Just out of curiosity that has nothing to do with any hair pulled out of my head all day yesterday, is there any leeway on the 800 words, given that this contest requires 2 minigames inside a game? Like say maybe 150 or 200 extra, just for kicks?

Hmmmm ... keeping in mind that the 800-word limit rule was put in place as a voter-friendly device, and that the mini-games probably will work best to be *very* simple and quick (that's simply my opinion), I'm a bit hesitant. We've had some rather complex mechanics in a handful of the entries submitted to earlier Challenges ... and they were under 800 words.

Still -- being the extremely amiable fella that I am -- I might be open to it if a few more potential entrants come out in favor for it yet today. (In other words: Keep convincing me, I might give on this one.)

Gogolski wrote:
While I don't want to butcher too much of the ideas I have, I think that the 800 word limit is a great thing. It has been said before by several people:
"The GDS is also an exercise in producing a short but understandable/clear ruleset."

I actually prefer the way it is stated in the GDS Overview thread: "... the entries do not need to be 'fully completed and tested' rulesets ... there should be enough of a description, rules, examples, etc., to give other readers a good 'feel' for the game ... the extent to which an author wishes to go is up to him ..." (See -- doesn't even need to be a clear ruleset.)

seo wrote:
Don't-tell-anyone, but-using-hyphens-instead-of-spaces-will-make-Word-count-it-as-just-one-word, thus-allowing-you-to-avoid-being-limited-by-the-800-word-limit.

Oh, come now, seo! Don't you know that I faithfully hand-count every single word of every single entry? ;-p

-Bryk

Gamebot
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Brykovian wrote:

Still -- being the extremely amiable fella that I am -- I might be open to it if a few more potential entrants come out in favor for it yet today. (In other words: Keep convincing me, I might give on this one.)

Mine is terse. I say no. =)

Gogolski
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Just to make it absolutely clear:

A "NO" from me too. (800 should be enough)

Brykovian, I know about the description and it's almost impossible to"fully complete and test" the games. I just wanted to mention something the tought that several people made while discussing the word-limit.
=> It truly is an exercise in compiling a bunch of rules (no matter if they work or not), and making them understandable. I wanted to point out that the GDS is some kind of writing-exercise too.

Cheese!

[EDIT]
BTW, no comments on the co-operating/co-design idea?
[/EDIT]

Cheese.

doho123
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

I would agree that 800 words should be enough for everything, after all they are MINI games.

Challengers
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Well, some leeway was given back in July for the "Bits and Pieces" showdown.
I would say that, if it would hurt the entry by cutting to the bone, then allow it.

Do you actually run the entries through a word counter, Bryk? I use MS Word, and I went over by less than ### (don't want to give away mine :) )

Mitch

Gogolski
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Challengers wrote:

Quote:
Do you actually run the entries through a word counter, Bryk? I use MS Word, and...
I guess that it's not Bryk's task to run enties through a word counter. I feel that every participant that completed an enty should run it through a word counter. If it is more than 800, try to cut it. If it is only 800-and-a-fart, leave it, but try to keep it within set requirements... (I have not entered a Showdown for reason of not getting my entry formulated under +/-1150 words...)

It's just not Byrk's responsibilty, I think. I admire his work on getting everything up and running and being standby for responding to a bunch of questions almost every month...

THANKS BRYKOVIAN!!

Cheese.

Brykovian
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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Challengers wrote:
Do you actually run the entries through a word counter, Bryk?

I do. :-) I haven't looked closely at the new entries yet ... but when I do I'll let you know if you went to far. As Gogolski said, I won't kill anyone for being a handful of words over 800 ... but once you're in the 8-teens, I'd likely be sending you a PM asking you to cut it a bit more.

I think I *will* stick with the original 800 word limit. Sorry to those of you who are having problems getting everything in -- I'm guessing you'll probably have a pretty good game to show even if you aren't able to give all the details.

-Bryk

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Comments and Questions on the November 2005 Challenge

Brykovian wrote:

I think I *will* stick with the original 800 word limit. Sorry to those of you who are having problems getting everything in -- I'm guessing you'll probably have a pretty good game to show even if you aren't able to give all the details.

I'm on record as being in favor of an even smaller word limit, so I think that sticking with the 800 word limit is a good way to go. One possible way, as a writer, to hit this limit, is to imagine you're writing a review of the game rather than a rulebook for the game.

As proof that this can be done, I've pasted in below a "GDS entry" I just wrote for Puerto Rico, which is a reasonably complicated game, yet I was able to cover all of the major mechanics in just 615 words.

A few principles that this founders:

-- Explaining minor points eats up words. Note that I didn't explain in detail the intracacies of the replenishment of the colony ship, nor did I delve into the rule that the number of discounts you can get from quarries varies by the "column" of the building on the central board (in fact, I didn't even mention the central board!). And in fact, I explained one rule incorrectly (the "spoilage" effect after shipping)! That's ok; these are not essential to understanding how gameplay works. Don't be afraid to gloss over stuff.

-- Give an overview, not an algorithm. Readers aren't trying to learn how to play your game, they're trying to see what is exciting and creative about it that makes it worthy of your vote. Detailed descriptions of setup algorithms, or rigorous accounting of when the discard pile is shuffled, etc, don't contribute much to this.

Here is the description:

Puerto Rico

Puerto Rico gives players the responsibility of developing the new world. By planting, harvesting, and shipping crops, developing the island’s infrastructure via buildings, and attracting colonists to the island to work in the emerging economy, players will compete to see who can make the largest impact.

Each player receives a player mat which has two areas, a 12-space “plantation” area, into which crop-producing “plantation” tiles will be placed, and a 12-space “city” area, into which rectangular “building” tiles will be placed. All tiles have a circle on them, representing that a small wooden “colonist” piece must be placed on the tile in order for it to operate.

Plantations come in 5 varieties (corn, indigo, sugar, tobacco, coffee), and each has a corresponding wooden marker of the same color. Each plantation type, with the exception of corn, also has a corresponding production building, which can be built in the city. During a production action, a player who has a plantation and matching production building, AND has a colonist in both spots, will receive a crop marker of the appropriate type.

In addition to production buildings, there are buildings that confer a variety of special powers, and have a cost between 1-10 Doubloons.

Each round, a different player will serve as the island’s “governor”. Beginning with that player and proceeding in clockwise order, each player takes a turn. On his turn, a player chooses one of the 8 Role tiles, and executes its ability; then, ALL OTHER players get to use this ability as well. (the player who chose the ability then receives a special additional benefit). The abilities are:

Craftsman: Produce resources, via the above-mentioned algorithm. (The active player receives an additional resource)

Settler: Each player receives one plantation tile, chosen from a face-up display. (The active player may choose a “quarry”, which gives a discount when Building)

Builder: Each player may purchase one building for his city (The active player gets a 1-Doubloon discount)

Mayor: Players receive colonists, and may arrange their colonists on their buildings and plantations however they see fit. (the active player receives an additional colonist)

Trader: A player may sell one crop to the trading house, placing the crop on the trading house tile, for a payout based on the value of the item (Coffee is worth 4 doubloons, Corn is worth 0 doubloons, eg). BUT, a player may not sell a resource to the trading house if a resource of that type is already on the tile. The trading house empties when all 4 of its spaces are full.

Captain: Players may place their crops onto one of the three ships, receiving 1 VP per crop. Play goes around in order, and each player may ship one crop during each round. He may only add a crop to a ship that is vacant or that already contains the same type of crop, and he MUST ship if it’s possible to do so. After shipping, any unshipped goods are lost.

Prospector(x2): The active player, and only the active player, receives 1 Gold.

The game ends when one of three criteria is met:
1. A player builds 12 buildings in his city
2. All of the VP tokens included in the game are taken
3. All of the colonist markers have been used up.

Players receive VPs from three sources:
1. VP tokens they received from shipping
2. Buildings each have a VP payout of 1-4 VPs
3. Several special buildings pay bonus VPs (again, IF a colonist is placed on them). Bonuses include effects like “Receive X VP if you have Y plantations” or “Receive 1 VP for every Z colonists”)

The player with the most VP is the winner!

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