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Attention card game makers

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dete
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Joined: 12/31/1969

I was over at Jack D's page and just thinking,

what a pain in the rear it is to print and cut out the cards.
why can't I just play it online?

not a video game.

if the cards can be showed right there for you on the screen
and you can play it right there OR print it out and be able to
play it offline, but initially people would play it online and if
they like it, they would print it out and take it on a trip or
take it to a party (then it would be good to have multi-player ability)

I for one think it is totally possible. May need to know a few
java codes though. Just a few.

JackDarwid
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

Somehow I've thought about that a little, but then I realized that writing a playable program is very time-consuming (there's another active Thread here that discuss about this kind of program too but they only make a program to check the game, the counters, etc, not a full playable program).
So, rather then wasting my time making the program, I put the time to playtest the game some more.

So, istead of making the program, I use this methods :
I've put the Rules in the site, so they can download and read the rules first to see if the game is OK for them to download (and make) or not, and I've upload some sample cards (today I will upload sample cards for IOD2).
And I think that's enough (I use my point of view when I look at a free print to play game).

Of course, it is always better if the designer can (and will) make the program you mention :)

That's me. How about another print and play designer outthere ?

Kreitler
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: attention card game makers

dete wrote:
not a video game.

if the cards can be showed right there for you on the screen
and you can play it right there OR print it out and be able to
play it offline, but initially people would play it online and if
they like it, they would print it out and take it on a trip or
take it to a party (then it would be good to have multi-player ability)

Hi dete,

I've been considering this for awhile. The main problem is the investment of time to make it work properly.

First, you need to design and playtest the offline version of the game. Since you have to do this in any case, that's no big deal.

Then, you have to make the online version. You can either:
a) Make it a single-player version, in which case you have to write AI that's good enough to give people a sense of how the game really plays. That's tough.

b) Add support for multiple on-line players, which usually involves chat, lobbies, etc. That's not terribly bad, because once you do it for one game, you can reuse most of it. The main drawback here is that people can't play the game by themselves to see if they like it. I don't know about you, but I'm a bit nervous about playing on-line with strangers. That could be a barrier of entry that prevents potential customers from trying the game.

c) A third possibility involves writing a stripped-down version of the game that doesn't enforce any rules at all (kind of like the prototyping tool recently discussed on another thread). You could post the rules and provide this version to allow people to playtest without downloading anything. This means you don't have to write AI, but once again, a single person can't really get a good feel for the game on his own.

I hope to write on-line versions of one or two of my simpler games and see how all of this works. Once I finish (if ever... :P), I'll post here so people can give feedback on the whole process.

Cheers,

K.

markmist
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

These are good ideas. I would love to see some card-type BGDF games playable online. I know nothing about programming, so I really can't help, except to give you guys ideas.

Krietler, Among the options you presented, I did not see the capability of playing a multi-player mode on the same computer (also known as hotseat). This way, you don't need to write AI, and you don't have to play against other players online while trying to learn the game.

I am not envisioning using this method as the end product, but rather as a great way to playtest a game solo. As a solo-player, you could play each player's turn in a way that is very difficult to pull-off in regular playtesting. If you have just one other person to help you out, you can play 2-p games on the same computer or each take 2 or more players in a mulit-player game.

Once the bugs are ironed out, you can either write AI or go online.

dete
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

thanx for the replies,
maybe because I mentioned java I was misunderstood.

not a video game that is all I can say.
I went ahead and did it with my own card game,
MOGAB (Maze of Good & Bad)
now I can relax, I had to get it off my chest.

even if it stinks, at least people can get more of an idea
instead of looking at a download here link and wondering
if it's worth it.

I've seen a really good looking MTG type CCG online,
forgot what it was called, you can actually purchase
these digital cards and trade and what not,
I'm just not a MTG person. heck I'm not even a card game person,
but
that is not what I had in mind.
something so simple maybe most people over look it.
imagine a web page that displays the cards, and you play
like that without printing them out.
your character card, in a new browser, minimize it and
you can keep track.
check MOGAB out to see what I mean:

http://www.geocities.com/boken88/mogab.html

markmist
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

Just checked it out. I see what you mean now. I think this is a good start.

Here are some ideas for you:

How about making several separate webpages, each with a different card. If a player has a certain result, then he must click on the corresponding link to go the next card. Kind of like a choose your own adventure on the web.

Also, you mention there is no dice in your logo for the game, but the rules below require dice rolling.

Kreitler
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

markmist wrote:
Krietler, Among the options you presented, I did not see the capability of playing a multi-player mode on the same computer (also known as hotseat). This way, you don't need to write AI, and you don't have to play against other players online while trying to learn the game.

You're right. That is a good idea, but not without its own problems. I see two:

1) For single players who want a demo that feels like a real game, they'll have to play multiple sides, which doesn't represent a true game.

2) For multiple players, you have to add code to keep hidden information secret from other players.

Neither of these is a very big problem, though -- and they're almost certainly less involved than writing solid game AI.

Kreitler
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

dete wrote:

check MOGAB out to see what I mean:

http://www.geocities.com/boken88/mogab.html

That's pretty neat!

One suggestion: save your images as GIF files instead of JPG. They will still be small (probably smaller) and won't be as blurry.

I see now what you mean by "not a video game". With a small amount of "web code" (like ASP or JSP), you could actually create web-pages on the fly that would shuffle your cards into a deck, and such. It would still play by clicking web links to open cards, but you could automate the setup and make it easier for players to manage cards (1 card to a browser frame, as Mark suggested earlier).

Anyway--thanks for sharing -- you've got a good idea going.

K.

dete
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

Thanx for the replies!!

ya I realize this is a very simple version of what can be
improved very much, I did think about the different pages,
but this is not my priority for now. ya I suspected simple Java could
help but I don't know any at all :)

about the dice, originally in the game the dice was cards 1-6
you just shuffle and randomly pick. hence no dice needed.

I'll fix this up soon.

Thanx agian, appreciate the quick reply and suggestions very
much!!!

dete
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

markmist wrote:
Just checked it out. I see what you mean now. I think this is a good start.

Here are some ideas for you:

How about making several separate webpages, each with a different card. If a player has a certain result, then he must click on the corresponding link to go the next card. Kind of like a choose your own adventure on the web.

Also, you mention there is no dice in your logo for the game, but the rules below require dice rolling.

this is no coincidence, because one of the major inspirations for this game
WAS a choose your own adventure book.

dete
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

Kreitler wrote:
dete wrote:

check MOGAB out to see what I mean:

http://www.geocities.com/boken88/mogab.html

One suggestion: save your images as GIF files instead of JPG. They will still be small (probably smaller) and won't be as blurry.

K.

thanx I will experiment! the originals are pretty bad, my graphic
program stinks bro :)

markmist
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

dete wrote:

about the dice, originally in the game the dice was cards 1-6
you just shuffle and randomly pick. hence no dice needed.


Or maybe you could incorporate a random dice roller into the website. I am not sure where you could find one, but I have seen them before. Maybe other's here would know.

FastLearner
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

Just to make sure you guys aren't repeating a lot of work, your basic needs as expressed here may well be covered by existing applications.

Thoth (which looks perfect)
http://digilander.libero.it/zak965/thoth/

Vassal
http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php

Cyberboard
http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/

Or they may be met by the joint application being discussed here on the board:
http://www.bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=25

Kreitler
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

FastLearner wrote:
Just to make sure you guys aren't repeating a lot of work, your basic needs as expressed here may well be covered by existing applications.

Thoth (which looks perfect)
http://digilander.libero.it/zak965/thoth/

Vassal
http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php

Cyberboard
http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/

Or they may be met by the joint application being discussed here on the board:
http://www.bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=25

But I like reinventing the wheel... :-)

K.

dete
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

thanx Mathew, I think it's pretty different though.

at least what I'm thinking is very basic and simple and
more like a choose your own adventure.

Anonymous
PROGRAM FOR CARD GAMES.

You think trying to figure out a serious or simple card game program would be difficult t come by.
Well try cutting out 30,000 cards in 1 year and 8 months with scissors.
In 4 hours I was able to cut out upto 400 cards. But let me tell you. The first time I started cutting and drawing out the right size was tedious.

So I came to the conclusion of only drawing parts of the size of the card. I was using the cambridge graph paper booklets. In one booklet you can cut and design up to 640 cards.

80 pages
x's the cards on each sheet
8 card designs on one sheet of paper.

Now if that isnt patience, I don't know what it is.

BullDog

Nestalawe
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Attention card game makers

30,000 cards?!?!?!

What, pray tell, was that for?!?!?!

Your first playtest? How did it go? ;)

Anonymous
Continued post. Sorry!

And then make three main deck out of 47 booklets

9,000+ for amber
9,000+ for blue
9,000+ for grey

When I first started the card game I actually did have the plan to finish with 30,000 cards. But then I slash out 24,000 cards. Only having 6,000 cards to work with. When I was finished I wasnt even satified. This game is about the samurai era years of Japan, Korea, China. The main map (the real topography of how Japan,China, and Korea looks today) has nothing to do with the game itself. I draw the map on a poster board with a few islands and large constinants. Sorry I don't know how to spell that word. On the board itself I have added a playing field for each player to play on. For right now this is the playtesting stage and i don't have any artist yet. But I can make due for now.

BullDog

Anonymous
play testing the tcg

At this stage in production I havent started the playtesting just yet. even though I should start. I have the last 3,000 cards left to complete for the decks.

I might add some more cards to add. For instants.

Private first class, second class and third class troops
and some others. The reason for this is to make the characters go up in rank through out the story line of the game. It wouldnt make sence if you start playing the game at a full General rank. When I get the artist to help me out on the decks I will start play testing them then. Plus I am need of help of getting some new ideas for items, accessaries, and spell cards.

BullDog

Nestalawe
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Attention card game makers

Nearly there huh. Have you done all the stats etc for each card? What happens if you find you have to change some of the values of the cards because they are imbalanced? Will you make them all again?

Anonymous
nope not really

all of the cards have just titles on the back of them and names of the weapons, troops, accessories, items , spells, etc but the system for the attack and defense are not on the cards yet. it took me three months to get the right feel of the attack and defense system. but everything else is coming along fine but other then the art work that is my down fall for right now.

DSfan
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

bulldog wrote:
Well try cutting out 30,000 cards in 1 year and 8 months with scissors

Bulldog,

Hopefully I'm reading your posts wrong. 30,000 cards for one game! Thats just plum crazy. Personally I would never play a game, no matter how good it is that has 30,000 cards! I wouldnt be able to shuffle them all, and to make matters worse setup would be a ________! (use your imagination)

By the way, if I was reading them wrong please excuse the words above!

Thanks
- Justin

seo
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Attention card game makers

Even setting the crazy production costs aside, just the storage space required for such a game would be huge! Think of a 24x18x7 inches box. I don't dare to think about the weight of the thing...

Are this 30.000 different cards, or you just need many copies of each? (Even if it's 30.000 copies of the same card, the retail price would be prohibitive.)

Are you planing to sell this game, or is it intended just for your (and your friends) use?

Seo

hpox
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Attention card game makers

My guess is that it's a CCG.

FastLearner
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Attention card game makers

That was my guess, too. Though 30,000 still sounds like way too many to me... are there anywhere near that many different Magic cards, even with all the expansions? I'd guess that 3,000 was high.

-- Matthew

Anonymous
About the CCG

Thank you for all the interesting questions.

1. No its not all one production of a single card.
2. yes there are different cards for each use of the game.
3. there are three different decks. which only have 9,000 + cards for each deck.
4. Magic the gathering has upto 16,000 cards from what I just heard from Doho a couple of moments ago in the chat room.
5. Randomization and strategy is the key.
6. The game does have different game settings. Like speed play, Protect and Conquer, and various other settings, There will be missions, or basic tasks to go through.
7. There are 30 different categories in each deck.
Generals
Male Infantry
Female Infantry
Weapons
Armor
Items
Accessaries
Spells
Tools/Materials
Creatures
And Much More.

9. and yes In due time When all is good and completed I will take the time and publish the CCG.

If I didnt answer the questions to your liking please let me know.

BullDog

seo
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Attention card game makers

I can understand that your game can use all that many variations, I just think that maybe, if you want to publish the game, you might find another way to acheive the same subtelty and variability.

I'll give an example to illustrate what I'm thinking of:
If you have 10 possible values for five separate attributes, you can produce 10x10x10x10x10=100,000 different cards, or you can, instead of placing the five attributes in the same card, have separate cards for each attribute, and produce several copies of 50 different cards (10 values x 5 attributes), and use them in groups of five (1 for each attribute). The result would be pretty much the same, but the production costs and the number of cards to shuffle will be much more manageable.

I know this might not work for every game, but in my example the production costs would be roghly 2,000 times lower with my suggested method. I guess that might help when you try to sell a game. ;-)

Just my 2 cents,

Seo

OutsideLime
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Attention card game makers

Quote:
4. Magic the gathering has upto 16,000 cards from what I just heard from Doho a couple of moments ago in the chat room.

The first-released set of Magic cards had 295 cards, and only through twelve years of additions and refinements have they gotten to the number mentioned, if they have indeed reached it.

295 cards, and a playable, manageable game, with the built-in potential for expansion.

Maybe I misunderstand your intention, but I can't see how anyone could ever start playing a game which launches with 30,000 unique components... it's kind of daunting, y'know? I can't even really imagine how you could've thought up 30,000 different items/characters/whatevers to go on the cards, let alone integrated them together so that they a) work as a game and b) have distinct meaning from each other and therefore value as different cards. I can appreciate the insane level of deck customization players can experience with that much to choose from, but maybe it's a bit overkill....

Hopefully you've got an Alpha Set in mind that has the basics all in one place... a smaller (say 300 cards) deck with good representation from all categories, feet planted solidly in the mechanics of what certainly must be a remarkable game, given all the time and effort you've given to it.
Once people can play and enjoy the game, and a level of interest has been determined, you release new waves of cards in expansion sets... drip-feed the fans.

That being said, I commend you for your focus and am interested to see some examples of the cards. I have a CCG variant "in the works" (a.k.a. "started but gathering dust in a drawer somewhere") and was starting to reach what I felt were reasonable limits at around 450 different cards.

Even at that point, I was starting to add items that were "intensifiers" of previously invented cards. Already having a "Light Laser" (futuristic game), I would add an "Amped Light Laser" which adds range/damage. Stuff like that. Perhaps the universe of my game was too confined for inventories of your game's magnitude, but I really am stumped by how you could've come up with that many cards, all with attributes and unique meaning in the game. Even with "intensifiers" (Sword, Rusty Sword, Silver Sword, Jeweled Sword, Rusty Silver Sword, Rusty Silver Jeweled Sword, etc etc..)

Help me out here, bud. Explain more.

Thanks,

~Josh

larienna
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Attention card game makers

If you really need that much cards, why not let the player to the work. Make a basic set of 300 cards and then sell out some blank cards with some rules on how to make your own cards. In this way, the players will be able to make the cards according to deck they want. You could then add new rules and abilities as the game evolves without having to print new cards.

MTG has around 20000 cards, but each card is somewhat unique in it's ability. Making 30000 cards right at the beginning would be hard. It is possible that your cards won't be unique, they just have different number variation. Whichc mean that you could make some simple sofware that generate all the card possibilities. But does it really worth building all the cards.

If I make 50 cards of each of the categories you have specified ( officers, items, etc ). It will make around 500 cards which should be fairly enough for playing the game. Since you have 3 factions, you could make 3 set of 500 cards for a total of 1500 cards. That would be the maximum that I could imagine but really think that it is too much. Remember that the players will place some doubles in their decks.

I don't really see why 30000 cards would be essential. I can't imagine a game that will logically need 30000 cards. You might be playing with large deck, like for example, decks of 200 cards or more. But in this case, with that much cards, it might be really hard to play especially if they stay on the table for a long time. But even of deck of 200 cards, a set of 300 to 1000 cards would be largely enough.

I get's worst when you say that want to actually publish the game. If you do so, forget the unique artwork on the cards. Remember that MTG could make 20000 cards because that had hordes of artist and a lot of money.

doho123
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Attention card game makers

A friend of mine who plays Magic online gave me that "16,000 number of cards" number. However, it should be added that he estimates that 7,000 of those cards "duplicates;" premium versions of the same card, or different artwork versions of the same card. So, while still huge, Magic seemingly has "only" 10,000 unique cards, and that after 12 or 13 years of development.

Still pretty impressive.

Anonymous
CCG

Wow thanks for the advice.

Okay I guess everyone is still stuck the the imaginable number of 30,000 cards. That number is for me to know when to stop and when I start.
Of course I will not be selling the entire deck to the market. There will be decks at least of 100 cards to play with, at the least 63 like normal ccg/ tcg start with on the market. I am trying to figure out a way to explain it all with giving to much. But. hmm. Okay lets try this.

For example

In the start of the game you can choose to have a home front or not.
Second you can choose upto 4 Generals to be the leaders of your campaign. 2 for the home front and 2 for the battle field. This means that if one falls the other General takes over.

Then the player shuffles the deck of cards. Given that the set has already be preset or not. The player has the choice of shufflin the deck for randamization. One either side of the field (saying for instant the first player) there is the home front. The location card comes up. This cards is placed on the left side of the playing field. The second card he/she picks might be another location. This location is set on the right side of the playing field. This card resembles the area that he/ she will protect or conquer (on weather side he/she is on). Three players can play a the same time. There is the earth realm, dark realm, and a mysterious side realm that is on the earth realm that is a neutral side. The neutral side can be allies or can be taken as slaves from the dark realm side. Or the neutral side can defend its own earth realm or try to destroy the dark realm.

The earth realm can fight another earth realm player.
The dark realm can fight another dark realm player.
The neutral realm can fight another neutral realm player.
The earth realm can fight the dark realm player.
The dark realm can fight the earth realm player.
The neutral realm can fight the earth realm player.
The neutral realm can fight the dark realm player.

If the earth realm player wanted to fight against the dark realm player his/her health points are halfed no matter what the card says. But with the strategy taken he/she can use the items,accesseries,spells to maintain his/her health points up at maxium. While the dark realm are at full force. This is because the earth realm is in the territory of the dark realm. Same goes for the dark realm player. His / her forces are also forced half health points on the earth realm.

The deck this size is of course many expansion decks.

Lets go back to the playing field for a second.
On the playing field itself ( right side, which is the battle field) there are four rows. The first three rows are for the areas on where to put your troops on. There is six areas on all four rows.

For example:
If you have picked up the archers Infantry They can go on any of the three rows because they can shoot short,medium or long range.
The first row is in the front ( short range)
The second row is the second behind the first row ( medium range )
The third row is teh third behind the second row ( long range )
The forth row at the bottom of the field is where you as the General is watching where your troops are leading into battle.
The archers can go on either row right. Well the card can shoot from any direction. The player can look at the opponent and see where his/her troop is located no matter what card she/he has and try to attack it.

For example:

Say the next turn you pick up another infantry card but this time its a knight infantry. Mostly this infantry should be protecting the General. The third row.

I can go one and on but I think you get the idea on how strategy falls into place. The accessaries,Items,Spells,etc. fall on the forth row.

But with new suggestions and ideas from all of you I take everything into concideration and let me know if I am doing anything wrong other then previous written.

BullDog

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