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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

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markmist
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Joined: 12/31/1969

Not sure if this topic has come up recently...

I am designing a game to work for 2 to 6 players. I have found is that it is very difficult to design mechanics that work equally well for 2 players as they work for 5-6 players. I have had to throw out a lot of good ideas simply because an idea may work great for 6 players, but is not workable with only 2 or vice versa. For example, auctions will not work with only 2 players - so I can't use them. I am also trying to stay away from writing too many no.of players specific rules as I feel this frustrates players who sit down to play a game and have to learn all new rules just because there are a different number of players playing. I think this is ok when it comes to certain things such as starting components, number of cards per player, etc. But as far as in-game rules - it can get very messy if you try to design these.

So, what are your experiences designing games for a wide span of players? What specific issues did you have come up? What are some great mechanics that work well for various number of players?

Thanks,
Mark

zaiga
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

I too find it difficult to design a game for a wide range of players. I don't think you should force your design for a number of players. If your design works great for 3-5 players, then don't come up with some convoluted variant to make it work with 2 or 6 players.

When I start thinking about a new design I always think about how a different number of players affects the game. Often it affects game length and number of components. For example, when you have a card game with a deck of 110 cards, where the game ends when the draw pile is exhausted, and each player draws one card per turn, a player will have less turns in a 5 player game than in a 2-player game. So, perhaps you should remove cards when playing with less than 5 players. On the other hand, it may be important for the game that all cards are drawn, which means that each player has to have more turns with less than 5 players.

It also affects less tangible things such as amount of chaos and downtime. These are harder to predict before playtesting the game. Usually, the more players you have the shorter individual turns have to be to keep the downtime bareable. Preferably, players should be able to performs some of the actions simultaneously when playing with 6 or more players, or the turns have to be really, really short and punchy. To make sure that there isn't too much chaos you want the impact of each individual turn on the game state to be fairly minimal with more players.

Designing for two players is very different than designing a multiplayer game. Different rules apply. You don't have to worry about kingmaking and bash-the-leaders effects, in a 2 player game, for example. It's OK to have player elimination. It's easier to design a two player game with a "race" goal.

However, some mechanics just don't work with 2 players. The idea of majorities doesn't work well with two players. Auction mechanics are a lot less fun, and you can't count on a bit of player interaction to cover up small inbalances in your game system. Two player games are often far more unforgiving. The trickiest of all, however, is that actions that affect the opponent negatively are often far more lucrative in a 2 player game than in a multiplayer game. This may result in a very "negative" game which may not be much fun.

markmist
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

zaiga wrote:
I don't think you should force your design for a number of players. If your design works great for 3-5 players, then don't come up with some convoluted variant to make it work with 2 or 6 players.

I have designed my game from the very beginning to work for 2 to 6 players. I was commenting on how many mechanic ideas I have had to throw out that won't work for 2 and multiple players. I am wondering if my game is not as good as it could be because of this limitation (although I hope that the flexibility of being able to play with 2 and mulit-player makes up for it).

zaiga wrote:

To make sure that there isn't too much chaos you want the impact of each individual turn on the game state to be fairly minimal with more players.

Unfortunately by doing this, the 2p game may be a bit too dull.... I really hate to throw out the option of a 2p game for two reasons though. 1) It CAN be playtested with only 2 which is very helpful. 2) The game doesn't break with only 2 players - however the excitement level is not high.

I need to playtest with only 2 some more to find out for sure...

slam
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

I've run into this issue a few times. The Marble Game can be played with 4-6 players, but it's likely that at least one or two of a group this large will feel "shut out" of the game early and will likely not have a good experience with the game. Plus the area that you can play in shrinks from the whole board to one sector. The answer I came up with was to have people play in teams with shared goals.

Warp 6 is played with 2-3 players. I thought that it'd be good to suggest that people play with 4 or more players with the addition of more dice. Then I tried it. The game completely broke when that happened. Planning became impossible, and the game devolved into whoever was lucky enough to have his turn at a good time.

I'm working on a dexterity game with this issue. It works well with 2, but it'd be good to have versions that included more people. My solutions for this involve having slightly different goals for a 3-4 player version, and for an even larger version.

I'm also working on a factory game that plays 3-6 people. I don't feel scalability is that big an issue here. The big issue is I need to distribute goods for money, and do I feel like ripping off the auction mechanics of New England, Amun Re, or Evo?

Gogolski
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

I'm currently working on 'Contraband Space Derby'. (Journal-entry)

[NOTE: I was going to post a game desing workshop entry for this game in this week, but stuff and the GDS kept me a bit and it will be somewhere next week that an entry is posted...]

I started designing this game as a 3-5 player-game and thought that it could be playable with six. I've yet to test this with six players, but I think it will maybe get a little chaotic and the fighting-part of the game will probably have too much 'cold-war' in it. (stock-till-you-drop on missiles, but don't shoot them...)

After doing some two player-tests (to see if some numbers were right and to test some of the (new) basics after the overhaul), I was pleased to notice that it worked quite well as a two-player-game, with no rule/setup-changes. So this game will probably be for 2-5 players, maybe even 2-6 players.

The thing I notice with different player-amount is that different strategies become more viable:
==> Shooting:
- In a two player game, you can attack/defend and you have only to wory about one players' missiles. Once you use your missiles, they're gone, so you can shoot and fly off (momentarily out of reach, or away to the finish of a race...).
- In a five player game, you attack (or defend) and having less missiles makes you vulnarable to players that did not participate in the shoot-out. (Hence the cold-war-thing** that tends to build.)

==> Racing:
- In a two player game, you will want to finish the race in time (and as soon as possible after the other player), so you don't get behind too much in point-total.
- In a five player game, you sometimes 'skip' finishing a race in time, which means you wander off to ship contraband and get a big load of money to equip you ship better during next race.

A mechanic/strategy in the game is to buy black-market special upgrades. This does not vary when played with few or lots of players. No player can do completely without them in this game, as several tests have proven.
This makes for consistency in the game. You will always have to save some money or ship some (more) special contraband to get enough money to buy the special stuff...

While I've not designed mechanics and strategies to create a game with a wide range of players, I noticed that strategies vary a little when playing with more or less players.
While finetuning the game and ironing out wrinkles, I can say that I made changes to adjust this game to both very few players (2) and more players (5, maybe 6). (=> The points you can score for shooting are higher in a game with more players, especially if you are behind the others in VP-total...)

The point is that games with a nice mechanic/strategy designed for only few players might suffer with more players and vice versa. A game with several mechanics/strategies, can more easily accomodate for different player-totals.

Cheese!

** There are several mechanics to break the cold-war-state of the game :
- Occasional free missiles for all, so you have to shoot some to make room for the new ones;
- Black-market-special-upgrades that are bought randomly. (You pay and draw from a bag a special goodie, but you wont know what it is...) If they are missiles, you will want to shoot (at least!) two normal missiles to make room for the special stuff.

Shellhead
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

Great points in this thread, all around.

Nuclear War (and Escalation and also Profliferation) is a great game that scales well from 2 to lots of players. In fact, the more players, the more I enjoy Nuclear War.

So why does Nuclear War scale so well? It's multi-player and it's very easy to attack each other, which could easily lead to king-making and bash-the-leader, but Nuclear War nicely avoids these problems, because there is a lack of information about who is actually the leader.

The winner is the last person with any population left, and sometimes nobody wins, thanks to retaliatory strikes by ousted players. Since a given player's current population is known only to that player, people can only guess who is most likely to win, based on assertions, diplomacy, tells (poker players can sometimes guess their opponents current emotional state based on minor behavioral quirks, known as "tells"), or even by how much change they need when cashing out a big population card to pay for the damage they just took from a bomb dropped on their country.

Velociryx
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

Markmist, I am curious to know more about your game!

Almost every game I've ever designed (except for a couple in college) have been geared toward up to five players (optimal group size).

Thus far, my main issue has been with balancing player differentiation (in some of the games I design, I want to make it such that each player "starts from" a different place...different capabilities, and this is probably one of the trickiest aspects to balance...how to make each player "different" (increases replayability, as you can try a different starting position), but make sure they all have the same odds of winning.

As far as standard mechanics go tho, I've never seen any pariticular difficulty in scaling them up, which is why I'm curious how your game is "put together" so to speak.

-=Vel=-

CodeFalcoN
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

I start with a set of rules and mechanics that cater to a 3 player game. I find 3 is essential as it provides the perpetual tension of 2 adversaries (making game strategy decisions not neccessarily black/white, but shades of gray: what may hurt this player may help the other). Typically from here it's not too hard to add a 4th. Adding a 5th/6th might takes sound value changing of various mechanics: you may make them permanent or just per-play based on the number of players playing.

Then I take a step back and see how you can 'dumbify' the gameplay enough to make it work with only 2. I think 50% of the time you'll find it's just not possible w/o destroying the core enjoyment of the game (depending on it's lean towards action/strategy). Games like Ticket to Ride, for example, all it took was an extra addendum to make bi-tri-ways only routed once. Carcassonne took nothing. But games like Settlers of Catan really can't accomodate it because of the economic basis of trading (my brother likes to play it 2-player but he wonders why the game becomes a colonial-era 'road race' everytime!)

Scurra
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

CodeFalcoN wrote:
I start with a set of rules and mechanics that cater to a 3 player game. I find 3 is essential as it provides the perpetual tension of 2 adversaries (making game strategy decisions not neccessarily black/white, but shades of gray: what may hurt this player may help the other).
The main problem I have found with 3 is the 2 vs 1 syndrome; either 2 players (sometimes inadvertently) co-operate to squash the third player, or two players (sometimes inadvertently!) fight and let the third player coast through.

I do agree however that the design decisions for multiplayer and two-player do seem to be distinctly different. Sometimes a multiplayer game turns out to be perfectly workable with two, but it's rare that it happens the other way around.

lordpog
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

A couple of games that scale well are Power grid (2-6) and Carcassone (2-5/6). I've played quite a bit of 2 player power grid, and we usually get some good auctions. They play quite differently with differnt numbers. In 2 player hunters and gathers it's not worth much to complete an opponants forest, however, with 5 players that extra turn becomes much more valuable.

benedict
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

Although the actual gameplay Power Grid does scale well, in terms of rules there are a lot of differences as the player number changes.

CDRodeffer
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

One approach to the problem of scaling from two to five (or six) players is to increase the game space and decrease random effects for greater numbers of players. This can decrease the aid (or damage) that any one player can cause toward any one other player. I'm having trouble putting what I mean into words, so maybe that's not very clear. I experimented with the concept I'm suggesting in Short Changed by simultaneously increasing the number of bits in play and decreasing the number of unknown / undiscoverable bits with an increasing number of players. With two players, there are fewer chips in the game, but a larger proportion of them are out of play for each hand. The opposite is true with six players, with more chips, but none of them left out of play. Both of these factors are scaled linearly for numbers of players between two and six, and it seems to work out OK for that simple game.

Another approach to this problem, one with which I've been experimenting in a hex and counter / consim game (some of you may have played it at Protospiel 2006) is to start with a game that, by default, supports the maximum number of players you're designing for. Then, either automate the play of any unused players (for example, Vanished Planet) or combine them so that some individual players may controls two or more of the factions (for example, Here I Stand).

Scurra
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

CDRodeffer wrote:
With two players, there are fewer chips in the game, but a larger proportion of them are out of play for each hand. The opposite is true with six players, with more chips, but none of them left out of play. Both of these factors are scaled linearly for numbers of players between two and six, and it seems to work out OK for that simple game.
It seems to work OK for Medici too, which is by no means a simple game. Although it's reasonable to argue that with six, knowing that all the cards are in the game can make certain aspects completely calculable. (I realise it isn't a perfect parallel, but it seems like a decent example.)

CodeFalcoN
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

This is an enlightening discussion ;-) A lot of viewpoints expressed give me that "duh, why didn't I think of it that way?" vibe. It's funny how people approach logic problems (and I dare say board game creation is one of the most boggling of logic problems) in many different fashions.

lordpog
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Designing a game for a wide number of players (e.g. 2-6)

Yes, but the rule differences are primarily in setup, after that you can forget about them (except only the target number of cities), since you will undoubtedly need to consult the table for restock rates!

P

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