Skip to Content
 

Dice ex Machina (long)

8 replies [Last post]
TruMobius
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969

As the title vaugly suggests this post is about dice systems

more succintly inserting dice systems into game that from inception did not contain one but now exhibit need for one.

ok so here's the problem my game thus far was built on the idea that
randomness was something that needed to be avoided but as the design process moved along, some sort of randomization would prove to be
benificial.

adding such a mechanic has proved to be exceedingly difficult for a number of reasons.
1) prefer it to use common dice ( d6s or d10s)
2) the mechanic needs to not feel tacked on and be more than minorly involved in the progress of the game. (hence the Dues ex Machina quip)
3) all the systems I've come up with are lacking in either orinality (minor problem) or in elegance (huge)
4) massive amounts of dice needed for some

-----------------------
So I've come here to ask for help (from the mechanic mechanics)
-----------------------------------------------
Brief/Vital game info
The game consists of a a set of two player battles
Each player picks an avatar (a RuneSmith) from the roster to go into battle with. Each 'smith has three stats which are basically:
Mind: ablity to cast runes
Body: abilty to sustain damage
Spirit: there for that extra push (adds successes for each point
spent)

Player duel each other using a library/vocabulay of runes (represented by tiles or dice not sure yet). each rune has a power level between 0-3

Using this language they put runes together to form rune constructs (essentially custom spells) to fight one another
------------------------------------------
Basic Dice mechanics tried so far (the rest Ive tried are just variations)

-Roll d6s equal to Mind stat;
each number higher than 4 = success
if 6 add one succes and reroll
if 2,3 equals fail
if 1 subtract one success.
if successes = total of power level constuct is successfuly cast

Problems
variable success rate, bogged down by number of dice and obscence amounts of successes needed, over complex?

-Roll 4d10 or 4d6, look for doubles if there are the number
determines the power level of casted construct, if number is lower than smith skill roll again and add one to the result

problems
seems contrived?, assumes that 'smiths don't make mistakes (wrong), doesn't take into count the diffculty of casting certain runes (power level)
-----------------------------

so there is the weeks worth of work that I've spent on the problem
perhapse some fresh eyes can help, any questions just ask

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Dice ex Machina (long)

When making a dice system, you have to consider many things:

1- How many parameters influence the dice. If you roll 1d20 > target number, you have 1 parameter which is determined by the TN. In White wolf system ( ex vampire ) the dice system has 2 parameters : The difficulty of each roll, and the number of success. A 3 parameter dice game, could be like vampire with the option to use D8, D10 and D12 in some situation.

2-The second important thing is the number range on the dice. More numbers on the dices give you more precision. In some games, it can be important. For example, I am currently using a roll X D6 vs TN from 1 to 6. This mean that I am limited to 6 different TN. So it will be hard to make units that has different TN. If I used D10, there I have a wider range of TN and I can create more variety.

3-Third, you can make alteration on the roll. For example, if you are totalising 3D6, you could say in some situation, reroll the lowest/highest dice because it is a enchanted/cursed weapon. Or you could say, roll 5 dice and keep the best/worst 3 dices. The dice alteration can be considered as an additional parameter itself. So you could use my 3 parameter dice system above, add some rerolls and you get 4 parameter dice system.

4-The number of dices that will be rolled is also important for the game play. If you need to roll 10 dices each time, it could be anoying. I even have seen an RPG where you could roll more than 20 dices. This is mostly determined by how you want your game to look like. Like dice number range, rolling more dices gives you a greater range of variations.

5-Finally, you could change the interpretation of the dice. For example, if you roll X D12 <=4, then you could use for example the law of the average. In this case, 1 D12 has 1/3 chance to hit, so theorically, 3 dice will surely make 1 hit. So if you roll 8 dices, then you use 2 groups of 3 dices to make 2 automatic hits and roll the 2 last dices.

As you can see there is many possibilities, you just have to evaluate each element. The most important thing is to determine how many variables will influence the dice roll.

Kreitler
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: Dice ex Machina (long)

Hey TruMobius,

Without know the particulars of your system, these suggestions could be way off base, but maybe something here will trigger something in your own head...

What if every rune has a "casting cost"? You roll d6 equal to your mind score and must equal or exceed the construct's total cost in order to cast it successfully.

Borrowing from Champions here... suppose you roll 1d6 per mind point, each 2-5 represents 1 rune successfully cast, a 1 represents a failure, and a 6 represents 2 successes. If the total successes equals or exceeds the number of runes in the construct, the spell works.

This probably involves reworking your numbers, but I'll toss it out anyway. Suppose you subtract the number of runes from the smith's Mind score, then roll a fixed number of dice which must sum to less than the remainder (example: Mind of 12, casting a 4 rune construct, must roll 12 - 4 = 8 or less on 2D6 for success).

Or, roll 1 D10 per point of Mind. Keep the highest. It must equal or exceed the number of runes in the construct in order to succeed.

I hope something there is useful...

K.

jwalduck
Offline
Joined: 09/06/2011
Dice ex Machina (long)

It would help to know what kind of result profile you are after:

Do you want a little randomness to add a little spice or do you want true chaos?

Do you want different levels of success or just succeed/fail?

Do you want an equal chance of all results in a spectrum or do you want a bell curve of results with avaerage numbers being returned more often than extremely high or low numbers?

Justin

Hedge-o-Matic
Hedge-o-Matic's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2008
Dice ex Machina (long)

Also, take into account that even "dice-fests" aren't random if the players can use the ranges or calculate the probabilities in order to have a sustained statistical advantage. This rewards good play but doesn't rule out that surprise twist. This is the aspect of wargaming most non-grognards miss. If I give myself a prolonged +7% bonus to succeed, I'll win out over time, and the more dice rolling there is, the more certainly I'll do so.

This brings me back to the note on parameters Larienna brought up. To me, the Vampire system is essentially broken because it's simply too hard to calulate the odds of any given set of two variables. Off the top of your head, is it easier to get four 3's, or three 4's? A third variable would only worsen things. Sure, such calculation can be done, but is this the "feel" you want your game to have?

Keep in mind the simplification that specialized dice can bring. Even complex results can be more clearly conveyed by symbols, rather than numbers that stand for effects. Also, since symbols don't need any given meaning, unlike normal numbered dice (a "5" is understood to mean "five", just as five pips are), you can alter the meaning of given symbols more easily. Also, you can vary the number of symbols on dice, or have the players roll a set of a few different dice, each of which have a known mix of symbols. These dice could then be heightened or countered based on which die they appear on, giving you the "third parameter" Larienna was talking about, without the calculations nightmare.

For example, your symbol set is a Rune symbol, a lightning symbol, an eye, and a skull. The die set is Red, Blue, Yellow, and Green, and each of these dice has a given set of symbols. The players may cast runes than heighten the effect of the red die, for instance the red die has more skulls on it (or whatever), and they want skulls.

Symbols also give a "pool of effect" that the players can use. So three Runes, two Skulls, and an Eye might be spent on certain actions, or what have you.

I hope this is clear enough (sigh).

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Dice ex Machina (long)

By the way, I have made an error for vampire, it is a 3 parameter system:

1-Difficulty level for each die
2-Number of success needed
3-Number of dices rolled

Which mean right now, the most complex dice system I could make is a 5 parameter system by adding :

4-Roll different dice (d8, d10, d12 )
5-Roll modifier ( reroll )

Ha ha ha! ... can anybody do better? (*_*) (god mode face)

like jwalduck said, you have to consider also the probability variation of the dice roll. Rolling 3d4 is diffrent than 2d6 which is different from rolling 1d12.

like hedge-o-matic said, using color and symbol can sometime make the unserstanding easier especially if each sybol has a different distribution on the die. In hero quest, there is 3 skull, 2 white shield and 1 black shield on the combat dices. I also used this kind of dices in the game I am currently making to dertermine if the player is alerted, surprised or hidden.

It is probably possible to evaluate the probabilities of the vampire system. I am not sure if they made it for vampire, I know in an RPG, I think it is Legend of the 5 ring, there is a table which indicates the prob of each roll and keeping combination against the TN.

jwalduck
Offline
Joined: 09/06/2011
Dice ex Machina (long)

Even White Wolf have realised the difficulty with understanding three parameters. In their newer systems (Aeon, Exalted, WoD 2.0) they have opted for just two: Dice pool and number of required successes.

The target number is always 7 on d10. The dice pool is determined by the roller's skill and the successes required by the difficulty of the task.

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Dice ex Machina (long)

There are some situations where using a 3 parameter system can be useful. For example, In my game's combat, I need to determine if the weapon hit and how much damage it does.

So thorically I need 2 rolls and 2 variables per roll to influence the roll from the attacker and defender point of view. Since I did not want to make 2 rolls for each battle, I fusioned everything in 1 roll with a 3 parameter system:

Weapon Strength ( NB dice)
Defense ( Target number)
Armor ( Nb sucess required)

In this roll, the weapon strength will represent the to hit potential and the damage potential.

So I guess we can make some sort of deduction that more parameter in each roll can reduce the number of rolls, while less parameters per roll can increase the number of rolls.

Lor
Lor's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: Dice ex Machina (long)

TruMobius wrote:
Player duel each other using a library/vocabulay of runes (represented by tiles or dice not sure yet).

TERRIBLE pun! lol

Infernal started a "Design Tools" thread specifically about player choice, which is attracting alternatives to dice. Look it over-

http://bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3093

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut