Skip to Content
 

Help needed with combat mechanics.

9 replies [Last post]
Anonymous

Hey guys, this is my first post. I'm designing my first game and I have found this forum to be very helpful, but I'm running into trouble with the battle mechanics of my game. It's a fantasy strategy/war game. The scale is meant to be group based (i. e. Basic Infantry are comprised of ten people.) The number of people in each group is fixed and doesn't have much influence on the basic combat mechanics. The number of people has more to do with winning popularity/influence points which help capture cities and gain new recruits. The combat system I've got now involves too much stat checking and rolling of dice. In my playtesting, both sides had three basic infantry units and the battle went on for ten minutes! Clearly this will bog down a game deisgned for up to four players where you must be the last man standing on a continent with four countries. Here are the rules for combat as they stand now:

1. Roll one D6 for Initiative.
2. Determine all stats. Attack Power = # of Units in combat x Unit Attack Power - Terrain Rating. Defense Power = # of Units in combat x Unit Defese Power + Terrain Rating.
3. Initiative winner rolls one D6 for every unit in combat. Drop the lowest roll. Defending player rolls one D6 for every unit in combat. If the attacking player rolls higher than defending player, the attacking player rolls for damage.
4. Attacking player rolls one D6 for every unit in combat. Drop the lowest roll and subtract the terrain rating from the total. Subtract the total from Defending player's Defense Power.
5. Defending player now attacks (Go back to step 2). Combat continues until a winner emerges or until one/both armies retreat.

I do not want to get rid of the Terrain Rating because it plays an important aspect in the strategy of the game. I come from an RPG background, so I have already assumed that I am doing much to much rolling for the scale of the game. Can anybody give me some advise on how to streamline and balance the mechanics? Thanks for all the advice, in advance.

jwalduck
Offline
Joined: 09/06/2011
Help needed with combat mechanics.

Could you clarify a few things, it would help with making suggestions:

Can there be multiple units in each space on the board?

Do attacking units enter the defender's space to attack or do they attack from an adjacent space? If they are in the same space does terrain effect both sides equally?

If each unit is multiple men have you considered using the number of men in the unit as a messure of the units health? It would also have the effect of damaged units having less influence. You would need a way to track unit strength.

Here are some quick suggestions to streamline things:

Drop the initative roll: In its place you can either a) do simultaneous damage, b) always have the attacker roll first, or c) have units attack in a particular order (ie cavalry always have initative over footmen).

Condense the Attack and Damage rolls into one: For example you could have a system something like:
1. Roll one dice for each member of the attacking unit. Rolls at or above a target number are 'hits'. The target number can change with unit type.
1a. Terrain may effect the target number.
2. The defending unit's defence could subtract 'hits' they recieve.
3. Leftover hit are taken as damage by the defending unit, each one removing a member.
4. Defender counter-attacks if able.

For inspiration you could look at the rules for Memoir'44. Its setting is WWII, but it is squad based.

Anonymous
Help needed with combat mechanics.

Hello speedbasssux,

this is also my first post here (I'm also working on some games and I'm trying to work out the mechanics for myself in order to find what questions to ask). As for your question, I tend to favor a system where there is a minimum of dicerolling.

Maybe you could lessen de dierolls to one die for the attacker and one dieroll for the defender. You could add up the number of units in the attacker force and add one dieroll (for instance a d6) and the defender adds his/her number of units and adds one dieroll. The die roll will determine the amount of units lost and the difference between the scores will determine the extra losses for the losing force.

For example a 10 unit force attacks a 4 unit force. The attacker rolls 2 and the defender rolls 5, given a result of attacker (10+2) 12 and the defender (4+5) 9. The attacker will lose 5 (die roll) units and the defender will lose 1 (die roll) + 3 (the difference between the total scores)= 3 units. The attacker has won but at a large cost (half his strenght).

Certain units (veterants, knights, ogres, giant etc.) could give a bonus to the total force strength and certain units could give bonusses bases on terrain features (each dwarven unit gives a +1 in mountainus terrain, elves in forest etc.). Furthermore, terrains can give a bonus to the total number. When taking losses these bonusses can also be used (when you have to remove 2 units in a forest battle you can opt to remove 2 human regular unit or one veteran or regular elven unit).

As an example: A force of 3 human regular, 1 human veteran and 3 elven units attack a force of 4 orc regular units and one ogre unit in a forest terrain. The attackers strength is 3 (human regulars) + 2 (human veterans) +6 (elven regulars in forest terrain) =11, the defenders strengt is 4 (orc regulars) +2 (ogre unit) + 2 (foresty terrain). the attackers/defender strengts are 11 v.s 8. The attacker rolls 2 and the defender rolls 6 giving a 13 v.s. 14 result. The attacker loses 6 (die roll) + 1 (difference) = 7 units and the defender loses 1 unit. The attacker opt to lose 3 human regulars and 2 elven regular units (which count as 2 for the forest terrain) and the defender loses 1 orc unit. For the next attack round the attacker has a force of 1 human veterans and 1 elven regulars comprising an attack force of 4 while the defender has a defending force of 3 orc regulars and 1 ogre force plus a forest terrain bonus of 2 comprising a defending score of 7. The attacker can chose to press the attack in a 4 v.s. 7 battle or retreat.

This system will favor those that choose their battles carefully based on terrain features and their unit's strength but (as the example shows) will not garanty succes and all that with a minimum of die-rolling. The "strengt" of the die roll (d4, d6, d8 etc) should be dependant on the expected value of the average force, when average battles are fought between forces of 50+ units on both sides a d10 or d12 might be better than a d6.

I hope this helps as a possible example with only a few die-rolls. Then again, rolling multple dice , might still invoke that exitement in the game your looking for.

Greetings, Arjen

Anonymous
Help needed with combat mechanics.

In my first example the attacker will lose 5 and defender will lose 1+3=4 (i.s.o. 3) units, wiping out the defending force.

In the second example the attacker loses 3 relular and one vetreran or elven unit and the defending force loses 2 orc or one ogre unit resulting in a 6 v.s 6 (i.s.o 4 v.s 7) battle for the second die-roll (damn those simple calculations when under influence of alcohol).

As an extra sidenote, I don't know the "campaign-length" between each turn. If the time is short you could limit the battles to one or two confrontations (die-rolls), which will allow standoffs. This might result in the classic scenarios where one force tries to hold a region (a few dwarven veterans in a mountainpass for example) untill reinforcement arrive.

Greetings, Arjen

Qundar
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Help needed with combat mechanics.

Hi,

Good ideas all. I keep learning more and more while I'm here. I know this'll help me in my games (no, I'm not the one who started this thread, but I did benefit from the advice you gave speedbassux and thought I'd thank people).

Live long and prosper, Qundar out.

Anonymous
Help needed with combat mechanics.

Wow, thanks for the speedy replies! First I'll address Jwalduck's questions:

Quote:
Can there be multiple units in each space on the board?

Since each piece represents a group of soldiers, only one unit can occupy one space.

Quote:
Do attacking units enter the defender's space to attack or do they attack from an adjacent space? If they are in the same space does terrain effect both sides equally?

The board is a hexboard, with the hexes being big enough to comfortably fit one piece. Attacks that are not projectiles can only be made when the piece is adjacent to the defending piece. I don't know how the hell I'm going to figure out ranged combat, but I guess I'll find out! Terrain Ratings help in defense and hurt in offense. For example, in the forest, it's easy to hide behind trees, but difficult to shoot through them. Mountainous regions provide lots of cover, as do urban areas. Plainlands and water provide no shelter.

Arjen, I like the suggestions you have made. My biggest hinderance is trying to keep all the pieces relatively balanced in power. I don't think I'll have to put round limits on combat to encourage "holding the fort". I want the game to be a true test of strategy. I think that I'll add in something to the effect of:

When defending player's Defense Power falls to or below 1/4th of it's orginial value, that player may opt to make "holding the fort" rolls against the attacking player's [value I haven't named yet]. If the result is equal to or greater than attacking player's [value I haven't named yet], the attacking player's offense causes no damage. Reroll "holding the fort" every turn.

Anonymous
Help needed with combat mechanics.

Just throwing this out there, but what if each unit had some sort of Unit Rating? Then Attack Power might be AP= Sum of party's Unit Ratings + D6 - Terrain Rating. And Defense might be DP= Sum of party's Unit Ratings + D6 + Terrain Rating. Obviously more "expensive" (movement, influence points, etc.) would have higher unit ratings to reflect their elitism. This would also encourage strategy at the pregame army-building stage. Each player is allocated a certain amount of points (the same points used for influence/popularity) and much comprise an army using as many points as they wish. Whatever is left over can be used to buy more units in future turns (after every conflict the winner would receive points in the sum of the defeated army's points). At first glance it seems that building as small an army as possible would ensure a popularity advantage, but this player might be the first to be wiped out because he cannot win conflicts with opposing forces due to his small army. Every turn a player draws a plot card and some of these plot cards might reward players popularity points if certain conditions are met, thereby encouraging players to think about their advances instead of an all out brawl for dominance.

Any advice?

Zzzzz
Zzzzz's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/20/2008
Help needed with combat mechanics.

speedbasssux,

I think your starting to think of some good possible solutions to your problem, but with the last idea of

AP= Sum of party's Unit Ratings + D6 - Terrain Rating

I need to ask a couple of questions since I have no knowledge of your game. So please excuse my ignorance :)

1) What might a typical Unit Rating value be? And would the addition of a D6 really impact the outcome of a standard encounter in the above version of your idea?

2) Does the addition of just a single D6 modifier get "lost" as a result of your Terrain Ratings?

3) Have you thought about the possiblity that at some point in a game one Unit may never be "strong" enough to win a battle (since adding one D6 might not allow much room for overcoming a very strong opposing force)?

One additional thought, have you considered any type of hidden combat related modifiers? I just worry about the my Unit Rating value is better than yours Rating+6, but again your Terrian Rating may remove this problem since I dont know enough about your game to know the real posisble outcomes...

Anonymous
Help needed with combat mechanics.

Having just ran a quick test on the "Sum of Unit Ratings" method of determining Attack Power and Defense Power, I've found that it proves to be realistic. First I ran a even conflict of 5 Basic Infatry units. Each unit has a Unit Rating of 5. I'll use Sam for the attacking player and Joe for the defending player.

Sam's party decides to attack Joe's party, the are both adjacent to each other and in woods that have a Terrain Rating of 1. It's Sam's turn so he has the initiative, his AP roll is the sum of his UR (25) + his D6 roll (6) - the forest's TR (1) = 30. Joe's DP roll is total UR (25) + the forest's TR (1) = 26. Sam's AP was higher than Joe's DP by 4, so this is subtracted from Joe's DP. Joe's new DP is 22. Battle happens in real time so while Sam was rolling his AP, so was Joe. Joe's AP was 25 (25 + 1 - 1 = 25) and Sam's DP was 26 ( 25 + 1 = 26). Joe's AP was not higher than Sam's DP and therefore he caused no damage to Sam's troops. I continued the battle for two more rounds. Round 2: Sam's AP: 27 DP:26. Joe's AP: 26 DP: 23. Sam's new DP: 26 (the damage was sustained), Joe's new DP: 19. Round 3: Sam's AP: 28 DP: 26. Joe's AP: 29 DP: 20. Sam's new DP: 22, Joe's new DP: 12.

As you can see, the forces were evenly matched. I then ran an unbalanced conflict. Sarah and Jane are in this scenario!

Sarah's party is comprised of 5 basic infantry units that all have a UR of 5. Sarah attacks Jane's party of 2 basic infantry units on the open plains with a TR of 0. Sarah's AP is 27 (25 + 2 + 0 = 27) and her DP is 25 (25 + 0 = 25). Jane's AP is 11 (10 + 1 + 0 = 11) and her DP is 10 ( 10 + 0 = 10). Sarah's troops mows down Jane's forces at a whopping 17 damage, while Jane's troops didn't even scratch the surface of Sarah's party. This result is fairly true to life, is it not? No matter how many "people" a basic infantry unit is comprised of, the ratio of forces rings true. 25 soldiers can easily pick off 10 enemies of equal skill. 5 individual soldiers can make quick work of 2 soldiers of equal skill.

Anonymous
Help needed with combat mechanics.

Quote:
What might a typical Unit Rating value be? And would the addition of a D6 really impact the outcome of a standard encounter in the above version of your idea?

I've been running off the basis of Basic Infantry units being fodder. I've been using 5 as their Unit Rating. I think Unit Value would be a better term though. Larger (ie more expensive) units would have a higher rating but would have certain limitations (like being able to either fight or move but not both during the same turn). I want to include some amount of randomness to compensate for storytelling aspects like luck, jamming weapons, etc. I feel that the combination Terrain Rating and Unit Value will tip the scales towards the more realistic spectrum so players won't be encouraged to rush his three infatry units headlong into combat with a squadron of heavily armed tanks.

Quote:
Does the addition of just a single D6 modifier get "lost" as a result of your Terrain Ratings?

I've been thinking of that too. The only ideas I've come up with are modifiers specific to certain units. Either supplementing the die roll with more D6s when certain conditions are met, or using different die types when conditions are met, or eliminating the dice all together with modifiers like " Add X to AP".

Quote:
Have you thought about the possiblity that at some point in a game one Unit may never be "strong" enough to win a battle (since adding one D6 might not allow much room for overcoming a very strong opposing force)?

I don't think that one unit of anykind can ever be strong enough to overcome a larger opposing if the scale is right. I mean, one person cannot take two people in hand to hand combat in real life unless you're a martial arts master, in which case your training and elite skill would be reflected with a higher Unit Value equaling a higher "deployment cost".

Quote:
One additional thought, have you considered any type of hidden combat related modifiers? I just worry about the my Unit Rating value is better than yours Rating+6, but again your Terrian Rating may remove this problem since I dont know enough about your game to know the real posisble outcomes...

Again, I might multiply the dice pool, use different dice, etc. I want terrain to play a substatial part in the game to reflect reality. Certainly fighting in the tundra puts different demands on your troops than fighting in the city does.

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut