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Line of Fire

11 replies [Last post]
Tue, 05/10/2005 - 17:28
Anonymous

Hi there.
First of all, im from denmark and my english isnt all that good.

Im currently involved in a project which involves a good amount of boardgame design, and therefore i have been looking for a forum like this.
this is my first post in here and im looking forward to seeing what kind of feedback i can get frm a place like this.

The project im involved in is a combination of a boardgame and a cardgame (working title Dawn of Steel). The game is run on a computer, but when excluding effects and graphics, the game itself might as well have been played on a table.

Im preparing a larger document about the game itself that i plan on releasing on this forum soon, so theres more to come on the game as a whole.

Anywa, i have run into a problem .. Line of Fire ..
A part of the game involves firing weapons at your opponents figures, and even thou Line of Fire could be calculated easily on a computer, i would really like to keep all acpects on a level, that would be usable on a real life boardgame.

I have been playing around with some rules, but i simply havent been able to come up with a set of rules that seems good enough.
I have added an image that shows a temporary set of rules, but im sure you guys can see the problems in theese.

As you can see the idea is that units fire at each other on a board devided into squares, in a similar style of games like UFO, X-COM and such.

I hope you guys have some input :)
Ohh and tell me if something dosent make sence :)

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Tue, 05/10/2005 - 17:42
#1
Zomulgustar
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Joined: 07/31/2008
Line of Fire

Welcome to the forum!

It's an interesting start, but it could lead to some counterintuitive situations. For example, if you modify your second green example so that the target is one square higher and to the right, as I understand the rules the shot is still valid. However, a direct line of sight laid down with a ruler would clearly cut through the middle of the obstacle.

You might want to look into how so-called 'roguelike' computer games handle visibility/firing lines, as the problem is nearly identical. I'll see if I can dig up some references I remember seeing on the subject later.

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Tue, 05/10/2005 - 17:50
#2
Anonymous
Line of Fire

Thanks!

And yes, im aware of the problems, and thus added the picture only to illustrate the problems im having.
If you add an obstacle 2 down and 1 left on the 3rd green you would have something similar.

I might end up having the computer doing all line of fire if i cant find a good and intuitive method, but i would just prefeer everything to work as if it was a boardgame.

If you have anything you can dig up that would be great :)
ohh and thanks for my first reply :P

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Tue, 05/10/2005 - 23:10
#3
phpbbadmin
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Joined: 04/23/2013
Line of Fire

Max,

First, welcome to the forum. Second, I had a similar question some months back, as detailed in this thread:

http://bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1443

Please reply back if you discover a good solution for your problem.

-Darke

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Wed, 05/11/2005 - 03:43
#4
sedjtroll
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Re: Line of Fire

MaxRomida wrote:
Hi there.
First of all, im from denmark and my english isnt all that good.

Welcome to the boards, and frankly I thin kyour English (spelling and capitalization aside) is quite good!

All you Europeans and your speaking good English... makes me feel like I'm being lazy when I say something like "speaking good English" ;)

Anyway, regarding your Line of Sight/Line of Fire question:
It seems to me most miniatures games don't differentiate- if you have line of sight, you can fire along that.

My personal preference is the more simple "if you can draw a line from any point on one figure to any point on another, then you can shoot them;" But I know many tabletop war games get a lot more specific, dealing with facing, or having to have the actual weapon part of the miniature have it's own little line of sight...

For an even more simple, really neat take on Line Of Sight (and on tabletop war games), take a look at James Ernest's Diceland. It's a really refreshing version of a tabletop war game, with all of the good aspects and none of the bad. It plays very quickly (maybe TOO quickly), the rules aren't very complex, and all the unit information is right there on the unit, even when it changes.

Again, welcome to the site. I look forward to your input and seeing more about Dawn of Steel!

- Seth

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Wed, 05/11/2005 - 08:59
#5
Anonymous
Line of Fire

Thanks everyone, im allready loving this board :)

And thanks Darkehorse, i didnt notice that you allready had a post about the subject, and it helped quite a lot reading it trough.
After reading it i came up with another concept (by using some ods and ends from the posts in your thread)

Its involves a table of numbers, but i think it can be kept fairly simple, and it might even do the job. I have added an image showing the table and some examples.

I havent tested it a lot yet thou, and i wouldnt be suprices it there was some issues, however it does add one thing i allready wanted .. the possibility of shoting from cover (ie. behind a wall or such).

Part what gave me the idea is the method of which a line is writen on a computerscreen with pixels. This method however is simplified.

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Wed, 05/11/2005 - 09:00
#6
Anonymous
Line of Fire

Ohh btw .. im sorry for violating the thread with my large images, I hope its ok. :)

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Wed, 05/11/2005 - 09:27
#7
Zzzzz
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Joined: 06/20/2008
Re: Line of Fire

MaxRomida wrote:
Hi there.
First of all, im from denmark and my english isnt all that good.

I different approach that you might consider. Try using direct line of fire/sight, but consider adding in a "Line of Fire/Sight" factor. This factor would take into account what obstructions are between player A and player B.

For example, if we are both on different sides of a solild stone wall that is only 15 feet high, the stone wall might result in a "Line of Fire/Sight" factor of -10 for a gun, but -2 for a grenade, etc. Obviously shooting a gun through or over a wall will be at a great disadvantage since the reality of a gun penetrating a solid stone wall is pretty unlikely. Now, lets say in another encounter we are both on different sides of a grouping of trees, the "Line of Fire/Sight" for this might be a -2 for a gun, but -5 for a grenade. The ability of someone to throw a grenade through the trees, might be a tough challenge, but a sharp shooter might be able to line up a shot through the trees, but still at a small hinderance.

I am not sure how many types of obstructions you might have in the game and I am not sure how you actually calculate your attack, but using some hinderance values like this might make it easier. And if nothing else this is another possible idea for you to ponder. I will point out that this concept might be more difficult to implement into a boardgame. But without really knowing more details, I have not thought about the problems that you might run into using this method.

I should also point out that this method seems to work, at least for the RPG I help to develop. But it is also being used in a more basic method of just calculating some soft or hard cover values, but as I said it seem to work nicely.

And let me not forget, Welcome! :)

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Wed, 05/11/2005 - 09:44
#8
Anonymous
Re: Line of Fire

Zzzzz wrote:

For example, if we are both on different sides of a solild stone wall that is only 15 feet high, the stone wall might result in a "Line of Fire/Sight" factor of -10 for a gun, but -2 for a grenade, etc. Obviously shooting a gun through or over a wall will be at a great disadvantage since the reality of a gun penetrating a solid stone wall is pretty unlikely. Now, lets say in another encounter we are both on different sides of a grouping of trees, the "Line of Fire/Sight" for this might be a -2 for a gun, but -5 for a grenade. The ability of someone to throw a grenade through the trees, might be a tough challenge, but a sharp shooter might be able to line up a shot through the trees, but still at a small hinderance.

I like this idea, It could add some extra aspects to the game. I did read about a similar concept in the Line of Sight thread, and ive been thinking about a method of implementing it.

However insted of Multiplying id rather just add the values, i think it makes for a simpler game.

This could, just like you point out, open up for the possibillity of weapons that may penetrate diffrent obstacles and such, which is a concept i like.

The game allready have rules involving arc-weapons, like grenades and mortars. The basic rule is that an arc-weapon can pass obstacles, but not hit the square immediately after the wall. This way the oponnent cant hit your unit directly, but since most arc weapons in the game have a small blastradius, the unit might be hit anyway, just with a smaller amount of dmg than with a direct hit.

:)

Ohh and thanks for the welcoming :)

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Wed, 05/11/2005 - 11:04
#9
seo
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Line of Fire

MaxRomida wrote:
Its involves a table of numbers, but i think it can be kept fairly simple, and it might even do the job. I have added an image showing the table and some examples.

I've been following this thread with much interest, as it's pretty much the same issue I'm working on for a tennis game. I think your table solution might suit my needs, after a little tweaking. :-)

Seo

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Wed, 05/11/2005 - 11:17
#10
Anonymous
Line of Fire

seo wrote:

I've been following this thread with much interest, as it's pretty much the same issue I'm working on for a tennis game. I think your table solution might suit my needs, after a little tweaking. :-)

Its nice to hear that you might be able to use the concept.
If you come up with changes, please tell me.
Allso if you come up with a better method of explaining the principle, that would be great :)

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Wed, 05/11/2005 - 17:19
#11
Zomulgustar
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Joined: 07/31/2008
Line of Fire

Given the direction the discussion has subsequently gone, I suppose this is now of interest primarily from a programming perspective, but here's the link regardless.

http://roguelikedevelopment.org/php/category/showCategory.php?path=devel...

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