Skip to Content
 

"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

13 replies [Last post]
jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008

As some of you know, for the last couple of years I've been working on a Civilization building game. It's been about 6 months or more since I've playtested it, and I've begun to think of ways to change the game around. One area that has always been a problem has been coming up with a robust scoring system. The main difficulty is that I want the game to reward actions beyond simply grabbing up a lot of territory; in fact, I want many different strategies to be viable, because the scoring concept I'm working off of is that every so often, an Historian emerges and writes about the empires that are currently on the board, paying out VPs based on the players' rank in 4 different categories (and those categories have changed a lot of times). The idea being that these categories are supposed to represent the kinds of things an Historian would write about or consider noteworthy.

This has worked reasonably well, but I have been thinking about what it is that I really want the scoring system to capture. In a sense, the “ideal” would be something like an actual historian generating a narrative about what each empire had done during the last interval -- e.g., “Publius Maximus, emperor of Rome, reigned during a time of great plenty in his empire, presided over successful military campaigns in Greece and Carthage, reduced unrest, built many wonderful monuments testifying to his own greatness”, etc. Now, this is well and good, but even if you could generate this, how do you compare one player's "narrative" with another to say which is better? The obstacle, then, is converting this concept into a quantitative system.

To this end, I am considering a scoring model based around something I’m going to call “Exploit” cards. Each Exploit card would list some accomplishment upon which the game confers points, e.g., “Won X battles”.

Now, my initial thought was to simply award the card to the player who had most superlatively accomplished the Exploit (e.g., the player who won the most battles gets the card, and the VPs), but this leaves a lot of players sans points, and that’s not very sporting. So instead, I am considering a model whereby each card will have its own mini-scoring track. Something like this:

“Won X battles”. X = 1 2 3 4 5+
receive 1 2 4 6 8 VPs.

Something like that. So, at the start of the game, several Exploit cards would be revealed, and as you accomplished certain Exploits, you’d place your marker on the appropriate card, and move it up on the card's scoring track as you accomplished the exploit more and more. Then, when a Historian emerges, the Exploit cards pay out VPs to the players based on the location of their markers on the cards' scoring tracks, and then a new set of Exploit cards are revealed, which will pay out at the next Historian. The kicker is that I think I’d restrict the number of markers you have available, so you have to choose only a couple of kinds of Exploits you’ll pursue, and you’ll have to follow through on that to the next Historian, at which point the current Exploits will score and new Exploit cards will be revealed.

Now, this has some pluses and minuses. On the good side, there can be some variety in the kinds of things that are rewarded. On the down side, it makes the game a bit more tactical, since you have to play to the Exploit cards that are shown, but I think if there’s a limited pool of possible Exploit cards you can follow a general strategy and have good confidence that it will be rewarded on at least two of the game's three scoring rounds. And of course, there’s always the issue of having to balance a new scoring system, which will no doubt be a pain. The key problem as I see it is identifying a way to award incremental progress without a need for more state-tracking. For example, there could be an Exploit that says “Lowered Unrest by X”; but this requires knowing what the Unrest was at the time the Exploit card was revealed.

I don't see a way to get this to the point of being truly narrative, in the sense of "he fought many epic battles with Carthage, but was unseated from his horse in the great battle and was trampled to death by an elephant; his last words were 'Long live Rome!'". But it's a decent approximation (maybe?).

Anyway, it’s just an idea, but I think it could be a scoring model that could work well in the game. I welcome any thoughts that anyone has!

Jeff

Anonymous
years of reign

If all the civilizations are happening at the same time you can have the catagories you mentioned, military, trade, building etc. and just rank them against each other.

In this way in a 4 player game, one could be fourth in military, but first in building and still win.

And if you aren't going to have civil unrest "destroy the reign" or allow leaders to be murdered you can break it into X amount of rounds which equal X years. In this way you can change the narrative of, "In his younger years King Herus was a brash leader prone to violence, but later on in his reign changed his ways and concentrated on buidling strong trade routes and monuments to his honor." If you score after each round and then at the end "read the tale" of each player.

Just a thought.

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
Re: years of reign

jjacy1 wrote:
If all the civilizations are happening at the same time you can have the catagories you mentioned, military, trade, building etc. and just rank them against each other.

In this way in a 4 player game, one could be fourth in military, but first in building and still win.

Yeah, that's pretty much how the game currently works, and it's basically ok, except for the definitional ambiguities that have to be resolved as to what it means to be "best" in each of the scoring categories, etc. What I think I'm going for is something that is not simply a static evaluation of your kingdom at a given point in time, but a dynamic chronicle of what you've done during the last X turns, which is how a history would read. And I think that the idea of cards indicating the things that will be rewarded, with a scale awarding increasingly many points as you increasingly accomplish those things, captures this a little better than my ranking-based system did.

Of course, there's the additional difficulty of ensuring that the scoring opportunities require utilizing the full range of mechanics of the game,
or conversely, to cut out those mechanics that don't fit into the framework of the things that the exploit cards reward...

Quote:

And if you aren't going to have civil unrest "destroy the reign" or allow leaders to be murdered you can break it into X amount of rounds which equal X years. In this way you can change the narrative of, "In his younger years King Herus was a brash leader prone to violence, but later on in his reign changed his ways and concentrated on buidling strong trade routes and monuments to his honor." If you score after each round and then at the end "read the tale" of each player.

Yeah, that's exactly what I want to be able to do. Not that this will be an essential component of the game, but the idea would be that maybe at the start of the round, you'd reveal 4 Exploit cards, perhaps:

"Accomplished a feat of engineering that was the envy of the world by building [ ] pyramids", "Waged war on the foes of the empire, winning [ ] battles", "Presided over [ ] dramatic advances in knowledge and learning", and "Increased the empire's population by [ ] citizens". It just seems like something that might be more fun than just paying out points for maximizing your points in each area, even if it's not profoundly different at an ultimate level...

Thanks for your input!
-Jeff

nosissies
Offline
Joined: 07/26/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

*emerges from woodwork*

Hey Jeff, these are some fun thoughts, I really like where this seems to be going. Hopefully I'll get a chance to playtest it someday soon.

Here are the first couple of things I thought of which I hope you find useful in your process...

Firstly, if each civilization is writing its own history, would it be possible as one civilization conquers another that they may re-write history? What happens if you burn your opponent's library? What if your histories aren't actually in your library but stashed away in a cave somewhere. I suppose this could be adding an archeological phase to a civilization game. I could ramble on about the possibilities here, but I'll just leave that exploration as an exercise for the reader.

Another reaction I had was to jjacy1's comment about reading the tales at the end of the game. I was struck by the fact that this often will happen after playing just about any game, and different individuals have different motivations in doing so, while most of us altruistic types just want to relive the ups and downs of the game, others may choose to put a spin on some event ... "I really had no choice but to (insert dumb move here)" or just to make some comment which they couldn't make during the game because it would have been considered table talk.

I like how this type of structure of the game would make the telling of the story more solidly connected or a part of the game itself. ... and it might get even more interesting/engaging if the history that gets read isn't actually consistent with the real events of the game :-)

peace,
Tom

Anonymous
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

A lot depends on the style and pace of play. One option would be to have "achievement" cards that are set out at the start of the game. Acquiring one of these cards could take a significant effort of resources on a single game turn, but once acquired you would hold it as a historical fact for the remainder of the game. Additional cards would come out to replace the ones that are taken, although the specific requirements might change.

This won't work so well if the game establishes small but steady changes each turn. It could work very well if the game allows in some way the potential for change to be built up for several turns and then "unleashed" in a golden age for the player. In some ways the latter would have a particularly historical feel for me.

GeminiWeb
Offline
Joined: 07/31/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

jwarrend,

Here are some of by possibly tangential ideas which sound sort of cool to me but probably don;t make any sense for your game ...

Thinks about having 4 different types of 'currency'. Each time you win a battle, you get a 'war' token. Each time you build something, you get a 'build' token ... and so on ...

During an 'age', or at the end of an age, you can spend your tokens to by 'narrative cards', where a narrative token might even require multiple types of tokens (such as for the great war engines of ....). To simplify scoring, there migth be say a summary score on the card as well.

To take it one step further, in some circumstances, you might even allow someone to buy a narrative card (with a negative score?) for another empire (such as the great king finally died choking on a grape ...)

How does this fit in with your specific historians? A couple of options exist, which could be used in conjunction. One would be to only allow certain 'narrative cards' each scoring round, which may or may not only be known at the end of an age. Alternatively, historians might have 'preferences' which mean that certain 'narrative cards' get bonuses or penalties ...

Happy to brainstorm further ...

Bill

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

nosissies wrote:
*emerges from woodwork*

Welcome back!

Quote:

Hey Jeff, these are some fun thoughts, I really like where this seems to be going. Hopefully I'll get a chance to playtest it someday soon.

I hope so too! It’s somewhat longer than the games we usually play, so I haven’t pulled it out at one of our sessions yet, but maybe sometime we could play through at least one or two scoring rounds...

Quote:

Firstly, if each civilization is writing its own history, would it be possible as one civilization conquers another that they may re-write history?

This is an interesting idea. My original thought was that the historians are objective chroniclers of all civilizations, and recorded the most superlative accomplishments of all players. Having a perspective of “you write your own history” is something I hadn’t thought about, and it certainly could be an interesting angle, particularly from the “victors write history” perspective. In a sense, there was an element of that built in, since if you captured an opponent’s territory that contained a monument, say, you got credit for it -- so “ownership is 9/10” in history, in a sense.

Quote:

What happens if you burn your opponent's library? What if your histories aren't actually in your library but stashed away in a cave somewhere.

Yeah, there’s definitely a totally different angle that the game could explore if you view the histories as sacred documents that you must protect at all costs. I’m not sure whether that would require too many sub-mechanics, in a way that would distract from the central focus of the game -- civ building -- but it’s worth considering!

Quote:

I like how this type of structure of the game would make the telling of the story more solidly connected or a part of the game itself. ... and it might get even more interesting/engaging if the history that gets read isn't actually consistent with the real events of the game :-)

I agree, I think this could be a fun meta-game element. When I first had this idea, I thought it might also be fun to have not-so-great achievements noted by historians, e.g. “during his reign, corruption waxed and the empire became a pitiful spectre of its past glory”. But, if you go that route, then pretty much anything can score points, and you don’t really have a game anymore. So, it’s probably best if only positive achievements are rewarded. In that sense, I think you may have to rely on the meta-game to fill in some of the gaps in the scoring cards.

That said, it might be fun to make a story-telling game based around making up a history for an empire. It would be completely different from this game, but could be fun...

PghArch wrote:
A lot depends on the style and pace of play. One option would be to have "achievement" cards that are set out at the start of the game. Acquiring one of these cards could take a significant effort of resources on a single game turn, but once acquired you would hold it as a historical fact for the remainder of the game. Additional cards would come out to replace the ones that are taken, although the specific requirements might change.

I previously considered a “target based” scoring card model like this for a different game I was working on (my GDW game “Disciples”; the scoring model morphed into a secret goal cards model in that game). I think it could work here, but might make things too tactical; I think that only scoring every few rounds gives the game a “mid-range strategy” feel, which I think might be about right. I do like the idea of players having a private hand of accomplishment cards that they can pursue and drop when they’ve achieved them. The “historical fact” concept is good; I sort of have an element of that in that certain achievements -- democracy, law, etc -- confer VPs every scoring round regardless of how you fare in the historian category. The idea being that those are so noteworthy that the historian automatically records them.

Quote:

This won't work so well if the game establishes small but steady changes each turn. It could work very well if the game allows in some way the potential for change to be built up for several turns and then "unleashed" in a golden age for the player. In some ways the latter would have a particularly historical feel for me.

I agree that a “golden age” idea would be neat, but to be honest, I think that Civ games encourage small, steady progress almost by definition. I could see how cultural advances could have a “snowball” effect where this leads to that leads to this other thing, but I don’t know if you could structure the game around it. Another thing to consider is that I don’t necessarily want the “goal” of the game to be about becoming a super-culture; you could equally well pursue a Barbarian horde strategy and do well. The key to winning isn’t meant to be conforming to one cultural model, but rather, to do things that are noteworthy to historians.

GeminiWeb wrote:
0
Thinks about having 4 different types of 'currency'. Each time you win a battle, you get a 'war' token. Each time you build something, you get a 'build' token ... and so on ...
During an 'age', or at the end of an age, you can spend your tokens to by 'narrative cards', where a narrative token might even require multiple types of tokens (such as for the great war engines of ....). To simplify scoring, there migth be say a summary score on the card as well.

Hmm...now this is completely different from what I had in mind, but this is an interesting idea. This would work well if players had perhaps a “hand” of achievement cards that they were attempting to play to, and could spend their “achievement” tokens to buy those cards for scoring. It might also be interesting if the “achievement” tokens had a currency effect for buying cultural advancements. I had in mind, for example, an idea that to advance in “trade”, you could either build X markets, or could build Y roads, or do Z or AA or whatever. But I couldn’t find a way to make that fit together in a way that could explained economically. Perhaps a scheme of receiving “advance” tokens, and then spending them either to actually complete cultural advances OR to buy achievement cards could be a nice way to accomplish this. (And it might also be a nice way to trigger Brian’s idea of a “golden age” -- maybe pulling off multiple advances in one turn costs more total advance tokens, but fewer advance tokens per advance, thus making it worth your while to save up and spend all in one shot...)

Or alternatively, perhaps there are “achievement” cards revealed face-up that tell you what kinds of actions will EARN you “achievement” tokens, and then you can either pay those out to receive advances, or to “buy” historical accomplishment cards, or maybe they’re just scored out in the Historian phase in some way.

Great idea!

Quote:

To take it one step further, in some circumstances, you might even allow someone to buy a narrative card (with a negative score?) for another empire (such as the great king finally died choking on a grape ...)

I think this is cute but I tend to a philosophy that scoring progress (in any game) should be unidirectional. I do like the idea, though.

Quote:

How does this fit in with your specific historians? A couple of options exist, which could be used in conjunction. One would be to only allow certain 'narrative cards' each scoring round, which may or may not only be known at the end of an age. Alternatively, historians might have 'preferences' which mean that certain 'narrative cards' get bonuses or penalties ...

I originally had an idea that each historian had one of the 4 categories that was his particular “emphasis” and was worth more points. But I didn’t like the way it played out -- it randomly rewarded the players who had emphasized that approach.

Here’s another off the wall way of doing things: there are X “history” cards revealed at any one time, describing something that happened: “Expanded his empire profoundly” or “Reduced unrest dramatically”, “Fought mightily”. (It’s key that each contains a subjective adjective). Then, each player has wooden cubes in the color of each other player in the game, and he places one cube on each card, placing a player’s color on an achievement that he feels that player best exemplified; the player with the most cubes on a card takes the card.

I’ve been trying for a while to think of a subjective scoring system like this, and there’s always the danger that players won’t vote objectively but will instead place their votes in a way that they perceive will help them the most. It might not work for this game, but it might be an idea worth pursuing elsewhere.

Thanks for all of your great input! It’s given me a lot to think about!

-Jeff

sedjtroll
sedjtroll's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/21/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

jwarrend wrote:

GeminiWeb wrote:
4 different types of 'currency'. Each time you win a battle, you get a 'war' token. Each time you build something, you get a 'build' token ... and so on ...

this is an interesting idea. This would work well if players had perhaps a “hand” of achievement cards that they were attempting to play to, and could spend their “achievement” tokens to buy those cards for scoring. It might also be interesting if the “achievement” tokens had a currency effect for buying cultural advancements.
I REALLY like this idea of earning 'acheivement tokens' with which you buy 'acheivement cards'. I don't think it really makes sense to spend your achivements on anything other than acheivement cards (scoring) though, as once you've acheived something it's not like you have to give it back to get some benefit.

What if it worked like this: There are say 3 face up acheivement cards in each category- 1 costs X Acheivement tokens (of the right type, obviously), one costs X+1 and one costs X+2 (Or X, Y, and Z, where X

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

sedjtroll wrote:
I REALLY like this idea of earning 'acheivement tokens' with which you buy 'acheivement cards'. I don't think it really makes sense to spend your achivements on anything other than acheivement cards (scoring) though, as once you've acheived something it's not like you have to give it back to get some benefit.

I think that the real promise these "achievement tokens" hold is to give a "currency" with which to buy advances. Games like Civilization or Mare Nostrum have mechanics whereby you "pay" for advances by collecting sets of resources. That's fine, but something of an abstraction. I like the possibility of having a more tangible connection that relates what you've done to being able to consider your Civ advanced. For example, if you've build 5 Aqueducts, then you can be considered an "Advanced" culture with respect to civic works. But there may be other grounds for considering you advanced in civic projects, and so the "achievement" tokens give a way to unify that. I think I'm far more likely to implement them in that way than in "buying" scoring cards, although I may still use them in that latter capacity.

Quote:

What if it worked like this: There are say 3 face up acheivement cards in each category- 1 costs X Acheivement tokens (of the right type, obviously), one costs X+1 and one costs X+2 (Or X, Y, and Z, where X

sedjtroll
sedjtroll's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/21/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

jwarrend wrote:
I think that the real promise these "achievement tokens" hold is to give a "currency" with which to buy advances. Games like Civilization or Mare Nostrum have mechanics whereby you "pay" for advances by collecting sets of resources. That's fine, but something of an abstraction.

And giving back acheivements to 'buy' advancement isn't an abstraction? Heh.

Quote:
I like the possibility of having a more tangible connection that relates what you've done to being able to consider your Civ advanced. For example, if you've build 5 Aqueducts, then you can be considered an "Advanced" culture with respect to civic works. But there may be other grounds for considering you advanced in civic projects, and so the "achievement" tokens give a way to unify that.

So I think what you're saying is that instead of saying "I'm advanced (WRT civic works) because I've built 5 Aquaducts", you'd like to say "I'm advanced (WRT civic works) because I've built 5 [things that give you a Civic token]". So 'turning in' the tokens, or just counting them to see which 'advancement level' you are at would maybe open up options for you. Like your civ can build "indoor plumbing" or something, but not until it has collected sufficient Civic Advancement tokens.

Hmm... in that way, anything you build could have as part of it's cost a minimum level in whatever category it is... kinda like in Settlers of the Stone Age where you can't explore the cold northern areas until you are advanced enough to make shoes and clothes to keep you warm (advancement tracks).

Quote:
I like the idea of gradations in the scoring cards, but I worry a little about the physical constraints of needing to lay out, say, 12 cards for possible scoring avenues

Lay them out, or just have a stack of them that people can look at when they want. I imagine they'd be parallel, like each category has a 4-cost, a 5-cost, and a 6-cost or something and so you know that to score you need at least 4 in any category, then you have to decide weather to push it up to 5 or 6, or grab the scoring card now. This could be even better if the tokens are hidden info.

Quote:
-- the game is already really big to begin with... I think I favor an approach where you place your counter on the cards representing areas you want to target

So 4 cards laid out instead of 12? I guess that's less ;)

Quote:
The key for me at this point is to identify how you actually get these "achievement tokens" in the first place, and then to think about how you're going to spend them.

Um... I thought you already had that... i don't know how your game works, but I imagine you'd get the tokens for whatever it is you'd get noticed by Historians for.

Hope that was helpful...
- Seth

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

Quote:
Quote:

I think that the real promise these "achievement tokens" hold is to give a "currency" with which to buy advances. Games like Civilization or Mare Nostrum have mechanics whereby you "pay" for advances by collecting sets of resources. That's fine, but something of an abstraction.

And giving back acheivements to 'buy' advancement isn't an abstraction? Heh.

Well, of course, every game mechanic is an abstraction at some level. But the point is, the idea of paying for Civ advances with resources is abstract compared with how such things really go. I think that correlating Civ advances to your actual actions is better because it forces your actions to shape your civilization, as opposed to being able to spend money on whatever area of advancement you might happen to want at any particular moment.

Quote:

So I think what you're saying is that instead of saying "I'm advanced (WRT civic works) because I've built 5 Aquaducts", you'd like to say "I'm advanced (WRT civic works) because I've built 5 [things that give you a Civic token]". So 'turning in' the tokens, or just counting them to see which 'advancement level' you are at would maybe open up options for you.

Yes; the idea is that I want a few different routes to any given advancement, but didn’t want to have to spell every one out. This system gives me more flexibility to do that.

Quote:

Hmm... in that way, anything you build could have as part of it's cost a minimum level in whatever category it is...

Yes, there is a system whereby certain advances/buildings can only be bought when you’ve achieved a certain level. This system still needs some tidying up, and will probably change even more if I do incorporate “achievement tokens” as the mediators of advancements.

Quote:

Lay them out, or just have a stack of them that people can look at when they want. I imagine they'd be parallel, like each category has a 4-cost, a 5-cost, and a 6-cost or something and so you know that to score you need at least 4 in any category, then you have to decide weather to push it up to 5 or 6, or grab the scoring card now. This could be even better if the tokens are hidden info.

I don’t think I want the tokens to be hidden info, but I think it’s possible that you could have some “achievement” cards that are secret, and that you use “achievement” tokens to buy as a way to getting VPs -- kind of like Brian’s “historical fact” idea.

Quote:

Um... I thought you already had that... i don't know how your game works, but I imagine you'd get the tokens for whatever it is you'd get noticed by Historians for.

I think that the idea Bill had was that the tokens were received depending on the actions you’ve taken, and then you’d use these to “buy” Exploit cards which are the things that Historians notice and give VPs for. I favor the former, but maybe not the latter aspect of this. For example, maybe fighting a battle grants you one “war” achievement token, which you can then spend to advance your military in some way. But whether Historians would award VPs for the same thing is not yet clear. It’s been the thorniest part of the design so far, choosing a sensible set of VP categories...

Thanks again,

Jeff

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

I've been thinking about ways to incorporate all the great ideas that folks have suggested into a scoring system, and I think I'm converging on a way to overhaul this aspect of the game.

First, I really like the idea of making "achievement tokens" a central element of the game -- I feel like this is the last "unifying concept" that the game needed to tie the whole edifice together. The idea will be that "achievement tokens" come in 3 or 4 categories, and will be used for two purposes: to pay for Civ advances, and to pay for "Exploit" cards.

There is now a specific turn action by which you can draw a new kind of card that has info on each side. On one side is something you can do to earn achievement tokens -- e.g., "Build 2 roads in order to receive 3 'Civic' tokens". (you have to avail yourself of the ordinary mechanics of the game to fulfill these conditions; then, having done so, you can cash in the card for achievement tokens). On the other side is something you can do to spend achievement tokens: the "Exploits" you're claiming to have performed.

(There's another way to earn achievement tokens, namely, by building buildings. I have for a while had a system whereby you could build buildings that upgraded your territories by conferring bonus resources, expanding the capacity of the territories, etc., but none of these benefits really felt like they demanded the complexity of the building submechanic in the first place. But now, buildings serve the primary purpose of paying you "achievement tokens" in the particular category of that building.)

When the Historian emerges, players score points for the Exploit cards they've put into play. Then, ALL Exploits, both played and unplayed, are lost. Herein Tom's idea kicks in: there's a special building called a "Library" that houses Exploits, so putting a fulfilled Exploit in there lets you keep it over multiple scoring rounds, BUT it's now connected to the Library rather than to you, meaning that if you lose the Territory that houses the library, someone else gets the benefit.

I think that the Exploits themselves will contain some statement about your empire that must be valid for you to put the Exploit into play (or perhaps for you to score points for it at the time the Historian emerges). I had a fun idea that the Exploit could contain a subjective description of your empire, and when you try to put it into play other players must "vote" as to whether it actually describes your empire or not, with some penalty associated with trying to float a bogus claim about yourself. I like this in principle, but I'm afraid it's the kind of thing "purists" would go nuts over, and I may not want to alienate such folks.

The decision to have the Exploit cards be something you draw and then put into play, as opposed to something you choose from a display, was a tough one, and isn't fully settled. One concern is a "luck of the draw" aspect. I think that since each card also contains an alternative use, and since cards could be traded between players, there should be ample opportunity to get Exploits that are well-suited to the strategy you're trying to pursue (but there's also an element of trying to shape your strategy to the cards you're dealt).

The toughest decision by far is whether to make this version of Exploit cards the sole VP mechanism in the game, as opposed to additionally having some objective categories against which all players will be scored. I think that there is going to be so much to think about in terms of managing the system of achievement tokens, resources, advancements, etc, that trying to also pursue several objective categories (like "biggest empire" or "strongest military") would be Too Much to Think About (TM). So I'm going to try it this way for now and see if the game's mechanical edifice, which I'm happy with, can still survive in this kind of scoring model.

From the beginning, I've wanted different strategies to be plausible -- a war-monger, a cultural mecca, a trade empire. I think this system still allows you to pursue those and other different approaches; the mechanics are present to pursue these differentiated strategies, and now I think that the scoring systems are present to reward different approaches as well. We'll see how it works!

Many thanks for all of your excellent suggestions, they've given me a lot to think about and indeed, have moved me far beyond the idea I initially had for the new scoring model. It's a very pleasant surprise that that happened!

-Jeff

GeminiWeb
Offline
Joined: 07/31/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

jwarrend wrote:

Quote:
I think that the idea Bill had was that the tokens were received depending on the actions you’ve taken, and then you’d use these to “buy” Exploit cards which are the things that Historians notice and give VPs for.

My original idea regarding the achievement tokens was exactly as jeff describes above. That said, the idea of using them to buy advances as well also works well.

Quote:
But whether Historians would award VPs for the same thing is not yet clear. It’s been the thorniest part of the design so far, choosing a sensible set of VP categories...

It's also important to note here that the token costs need not be consistant across types of tokens. For example, it might cost quite a lot f war tokens for the war exploit cards, whereas the building exploit cards might be comparably cheaper.

Quote:
The decision to have the Exploit cards be something you draw and then put into play, as opposed to something you choose from a display, was a tough one, and isn't fully settled. One concern is a "luck of the draw" aspect. I think that since each card also contains an alternative use, and since cards could be traded between players, there should be ample opportunity to get Exploits that are well-suited to the strategy you're trying to pursue (but there's also an element of trying to shape your strategy to the cards you're dealt).

As long as specific cards aren't particularly over-powered (e.g. too easy to get tokens or veyr cheapr exploit wit high VP), it should hopefully work out okay. I suppose thats what playtesting is for!

Quote:
I think that there is going to be so much to think about in terms of managing the system of achievement tokens, resources, advancements, etc, that trying to also pursue several objective categories (like "biggest empire" or "strongest military") would be Too Much to Think About (TM). So I'm going to try it this way for now and see if the game's mechanical edifice, which I'm happy with, can still survive in this kind of scoring model.

Another idea is to have some 'universal' exploit cards which are always available and cost nothing. For example, consider a card for 'biggest ever empire' which goes to the biggest empire, but can transfer as the game goes on (a bit like the longest road and largest army in Settlers of Catan perhaps), so different empires might score on it during different scoring rounds. This could also include some 'free' exploit cards for the first empire to purchase specific advances ('... was responsible for development of the aqueduct ...').

- 'Brainstorming Bill'

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
"Narrative" scoring concepts for Civ game

GeminiWeb wrote:

Another idea is to have some 'universal' exploit cards which are always available and cost nothing. For example, consider a card for 'biggest ever empire' which goes to the biggest empire, but can transfer as the game goes on ...

Something like this might work ok, but it's all a question of whether the state tracking is easy or not; for example, empire sizes (to maintain your example) could fluctuate, so earning the "biggest empire" card would require tracking how big the biggest empire was. Maybe not that hard, but just something else to have to think about design-wise.

Another idea was to allow players to claim the exploits of other players for themselves (in addition to the players who originally claimed them).

Until I resolve a really satisfying model for the exploit cards themselves, some of this is up in the air. A few possible models:

Static cost and payout: Pay X achievement tokens to receive Y VP.
I think this would reduce the individual exploits to being little more than flavor text, and wouldn't be that interesting.

Static payout, conditional Pay X achievement tokens to receive Y VP but you must have done Z to put the card in play.

Scalable payout For each X that you do (eg, win a battle), pay Y achievement tokens to advance your marker on this card's "scoring scale" which tells how many points you'll get.

I currently favor the last of these, but it becomes a legitimate question whether there would be a need to put another Exploit card in play or just keep scoring on the same one; maybe the payout per achievement token decreases the further you go on one card, or maybe there's some other reason why having multiple cards is better than just trying to go all the way to the top of one card. Not sure yet.

Quote:

This could also include some 'free' exploit cards for the first empire to purchase specific advances ('... was responsible for development of the aqueduct ...').

I had a different idea for this that is similar and perhaps cute. I think that there will be 3 Civ categories in which you can advance, and thus, three piles of "Advance" cards. These cards will be face-up, and you can choose, as a turn action, implementing one of those advances in your Empire (at a cost of some achievement tokens). BUT, if you already own the advance, you can sell the card off to another player instead. This gives a mechanic to "pass on" technology and to not have to include a Kramer-esque rule like "draw 5 cards and choose the one you want to keep" (I like such mechanics, but they're a time sink and this game can't afford that, since it's already rather long...

Thanks again for some more great thoughts!

-Jeff

- 'Brainstorming Bill'

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut