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Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

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DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969

Guys,

Once again I have run into a small impasse and I want to get your feeling on the rule I'm trying to work out.

I am working on a chariot racing game where there are a total of five speed levels a horse team can travel at (the higher the speed level the faster the horse team can move). Each speed level costs so much in energy to travel at that speed level: 6 energy for speed level five, 4 for speed level four, 2 for speed level three, 1 for speed level two and 0 energy for speed level one.

A player moves the chariot the number of squares shown on a die roll for a die for the appropriate speed level. The dies have the following numbers on them for the following speed levels:

level 5: 10-12
level 4: 6-10
level 3: 4-6
level 2: 2-4
level 1: 1

The problem I am running into is the scenario where a player spends his final amount of energy to travel at speed level 5. On his next turn he has zero energy and therefore can not travel at that speed level. As the rules are, a player can only go down *one* speed level per turn. If the player goes down to the level 4 speed level he is still short of 4 energy to travel at that speed (has energy of zero). How should I handle this situation?

One way is to allow the player to roll the die for the speed level with no penalty for not having any energy. I think this is a bad idea, as it penalizes the more prudent players that run out of energy at a lower level and don't get as much free movement as if the player had run out of energy at a higher level. Plus a player who is energy conscious can still lose to a player who runs out of energy even though the player uses the same amount of energy at a lower speed level thus giving him more movement rolls.

The second idea I came up with was to limit the player to the minimum amount moved to that speed level plus any energy left to pay even though it is not enough. For example, I am forced to move to level 4 and I have 1 energy. I must throw in this one energy so my max movement is 7 (minimum of level 4 is 6 + 1 for one energy is seven). I still roll the die, but if it is higher than 7, the movement is 7. The problem with this scenario, is that it still benefits the person who runs out of energy at the higher speed levels. Also the amount moved can be determinisitic if the player has no energy: a horse team at zero energy must move 6 for level 4, move 4 for level 3 and so on.

Another idea is to simply subtract the amount of energy the player is short for a speed level from the die roll for that level. For example, the player is at level 4 needs 4 energy but only has 2. The player is two short, so he rolls the level 4 die gets a 8 and subtracts 2 (2 energy short) to get a six.

The only problem with this is that 2 energy at level three will get you on average 5 movement. In the scenario above where a 8 is rolled on average, the player will move 6 squares. Intuitively this seems wrong (why should a player with no energy on average move more), and an analysis will show still a slight advantage to the player who runs out of energy. It seems to me running out of energy should bring harsher consequences so to make more descisions agonizing and make players plan more in regards to energy handling.

Also these last two ways are a little complicated with the subtraction. Another harsher and little simpler idea is that the player is forced to move a number of speed levels from the current speed level down by the number of energy short. For example, if a player has no energy for level 4 that costs 4 energy, the player moves the pawn down to speed level 0 (4th speed level - 4 energy short = 0) for zero movement (on the next turn the player can move up to level 1 for no cost of energy for 1 movement).

The ultimate simplest thing is that no matter what the speed level of the player and how many short of energy, the remaining energy is discarded and the horse team is forced to speed level 1.

Which of the methods proposed do you guys think is the best?

Thanks for reading this.

--DarkDream

Fos
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

How about this?

Energy points are only used to keep at a steady speed, go up a speed level, or go down a speed level if they choose. If a player is at speed level 5 but only has 4 points, they move down to level 4. However, if they only have 3 or less points, they move down to level 3 (or any level 2 below what they're currently at). This penalizes players who have not conserved energy to dramatically reduce speed (their horses will slow down much quicker than if they were commanded to slow down). Players out of energy continue to drop 2 speed levels until they're at speed 1 (or 0, if you want to do that).

So a player could time their energy points to run out right before the finish line, but if it's a close race the player who has conserved enough energy to run at speed level 5 on the last leg will still win.

DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

Fos,

Thanks for your reply. From what I understand you are saying, if a player can not still pay for a speed level after going down one (as they could not pay for their beginning speed level for the turn), they would go down one more level.

I just talked to my brother on the phone, and this is what he seemed to suggest as well. It is simple and makes sense.

The only problem I see is that this will work the same with a horseteam with zero energy or one energy short of the next speed level down. For example, the horseteam has a total of three energy at level 5 and therefore goes down one level to speed level 4. At speed level 4 the horse team is still one short on energy (needs four but has three), the horse team goes down again to level 3, looses all the energy and rolls the die for level 3. As can be seen, this would play out exactly the same if the player had 0 energy.

Maybe the horse team keeps the energy they have left instead of loosing it all to pay for the cost in energy for the second speed level down. For the example above, speed level 3 requires 2 energy thus the player would keep the 3 energy and then use that to pay the 2 energy for the level to be left with one energy. Unfortunately, this scenario would leave the person with 0 energy if the horse team had 2 or less energy thus negating any advantage of having some energy left one or two units of energy left over.

Or how about the horse team keeps going down speed levels until the horse team can pay for a level? The only unrealistic thing about this is that it is possible to go from speed level 5 to speed level 1 in one turn.

Which do you like better? Fos' idea or the final option presented.

Thanks for your input Fos. Any more comments?

--DarkDream

Johan
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Joined: 10/05/2008
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

Hello

Start questions. Will you get all energy from the beginning of the game or will the players receive energy in the game.

If you get all energy from the start of the game, drop the chariot down to level 1, let the chariot go on level 1 for the next turn.

One way to do it is to let the players get 3 energy each turn and pay the cost. The unused energy is saved. If you can't pay, the horses are exhausted, you go down to level 1 and from this point you will get one energy less.

// Johan

Fos
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

Well, lemme run through an example turn then... that might help. Note: I don't know your mechanics as well as you do, of course, so bare with me if I fumble some specifics.

Player 1, 2, and 3 are neck and neck on the last leg. Player 1 has 4 energy, Player 2 has 2 energy, and Player 3 has 0 energy. Everyone is running at speed level 5.

On the first turn of this little set up:
Player 1 spends all 4 of his energy to keep running at speed 5.
Player 2 cannot afford to run at speed 5, and so drops to 3 (and doesn't use his energy).
Player 3 cannot afford to run at speed 5, so drops to 3 and is still out of energy.

Second turn:
Player 1 is out of energy, so he drops to speed 3 and crosses the finish line.
Player 2 uses the rest of his energy to maintain a speed of 3.
Player 3 is still out of energy, so he drops to speed 1.

In this set up, Player 1 could move 14 to 18 spaces, Player 2 could move 8 to 12, and Player 3 could move 5 to 7.

If you make Player 2 use his energy when he drops 2 levels, he will have the same movement potential as Player 3, which isn't what you're shooting for. This rule (not taking energy for a turn where you drop 2 levels) seems really fiddly, but perhaps I'm not thinking hard enough to invent a solid rationale.

DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

Thanks for the responses.

Johan, players will receive one allotment of energy at the beginning of the game and will not get the opportuinity of getting more energy.

Johan, from your input, you seem to say if a player can not pay for a speed level after going down one speed level, let the player drop to speed level 1. This is interesting, one guy at my work suggested this as well. I'll definitely keep this option open.

Thanks.

Fos,

Thanks for the detailed analysis! The gist of your rule is that if the player moves down 2 speed levels they keep their energy for the next turn. Your idea seems like a good one, but like you pointed out it is a little bit fiddly for a player not using energy (the players will be used to paying for energy to stay at a speed level).

To use your same example (Player 1 will have to start out with *6* energy instead of *4* as it costs 6 energy to maintain this level), and the idea that you drop down as many speed levels until you can pay to stay at a speed level, the outcome will look something like this (I'll provide the scenario again to make it easier for readers):

Situation: All three players traveling at speed level 5 with the following energy:

Player 1: 6 energy
Player 2: 2 energy
Player 3: 0 energy

Turn 1

Player 1 spends all 6 energy to stay at same speed level for 10-12 movement.
Player 2 can't afford speed level 5 and thus moves down to speed level 3 as he can afford it, pays 2 energy and moves for 4-6 squares.
Player 3 can't afford speed level 5 and thus moves all the way down to speed level 1 (he can afford 0 energy) and moves 1 square.

Turn 2

All players are now out of energy. Player 1 moves down to level 1 and moves 1 square crossing the finish line, player 2 does likewise and player 3 stays on 1.

This turns out that player 1 will move 11-13 squares, player 2 will move 5-7 squares and player 3 will move 2 squares. This is pretty harsh but it will force players to slow down if they are going to run out of energy, which is realistic. In the above example, if the finish line was 13 squares out, player 1 would definitely go to speed level 4 and use up 4 energy for an average of 8 squares , then go to speed level 3 to travel an average of 5 squares for a total of 13, instead of wasting all the energy on speed level 5 to go an average of 10.5 squares.

Fos, I like your idea except for the fiddly part. Maybe this idea I presented is another good alternative. It is simple and harsh on people without energy which I think it should be. It makes people plan more and forces them to slow down if they don't have enough energy which is realistic. The only real problem I see, is a lot of horse teams moving 1 square if they all run out of energy. Maybe I should add another die for speed level 1 so a team can move 1 or 2 squares. This sounds right.

Another problem with my method I suggested is I am not sure if people or going to buy the fact that a horse team moving at a speed level 5 will go down to 1 in one turn, when a player can only decelerate for 1 level. The advantage of Fos' method is that 2 levels down is more believable.

How does this sound? Any comments?

--DarkDream

ycyclop
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Joined: 11/12/2008
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

The idea of going down 2 levels is a better idea then going down one.
Since I don't know all the details of the game and I'll examine one more option:
If you get energy during the game (which means you can reach this situation more then once a game) there is one more thing that you can add as a penalty. Every time a player goes down because of lacking energy he gets a penatly token. This token means that he can not accelerate. The next time he wants to accelerate he can't and he gives his token (since the horses needs the extra rest). so if someone ended with no eneregy and was reduced from 5 to 1 in two turns then he gets 2 penatly markers. this mean if he gets energy and want to accelerate the horses get 2 more rounds at speed 1 for resting.
If the players get all the energy at the begining of the game then I think Fos covered the detailed pretty good.

Fos
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

Hmm... so if you take what ycylop said, you could make Player 2 use his energy, but he would only get one penalty token and he would be better off in the next race.

DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

Ycyclop,

Thanks for your idea. Right now as the game stands, the player's chariot can not gain any energy. So the situation we are talking about about being able to accelerate again with no energy won't happen.

Given this, which method do you like better? Fos' method of going down two speed levels and keeping any remaining energy, or my alternative one of falling multiple speed levels until the player can pay for it?

Do you guys think it is realistic and believable a horse team's speed can be reduced in the circumstance of having no energy after being at level 5 to level 1?

Thanks for you comments,

--DarkDream

Johan
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Joined: 10/05/2008
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

It depends what you are aiming for. A drop of 1 or 2 levels per turn will have consequences on the game. A player that nearly has no energy left will go up to level 5, for the extra movement without energy.

Alternative to all other suggestions can be that: if you can't pay for the energy, you are out of the game (the horses drop dead or something).

// Johan

ycyclop
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Joined: 11/12/2008
Need Help With Horse Team with No Energy Rule

I prefer Fos idea of dropping 2 levels at a time since I can't accept the notion of a chariot going from speed 5 to 1 in a single turn (it can happen in your method if someone has 0 points left). One more option of a penalty (I know the penalty motive keeps coming up, its not that I like it so much but you got pay if you over use your resources) is: Every time you don’t have energy for your current speed level, some points are counted against you (based on the energy needed for your current speed). When the first player crosses the finish line the other players falling behind are examined. All the players that their distance from the finish line minus their penalty points is less then that player penalty points it means that those players have one more round to try and finish the race beating that player. I know it is not finally tuned but I think you understand what I mean (well at least I hope)

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