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Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

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Thu, 04/29/2004 - 16:05
DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969

Guys,

I could you use your guys invaluable input to help get a mechanic nailed down. Right now I am preparing for another game test session on Saturday for my chariots of war game.

I have replaced the ramming cards with die rolls.

Let me explain how I did the mechanic the first time around. In my game, a chariot can travel at five different speed levels (slow to really fast). If a chariot rams another chariot the attacking chariot rolls a number of attacking dice equal to his speed level, for example, if I am at level three I roll three attacking die. The defender of the ram rolls a number of die equal to his speed level as well.

The attacking die and defending die are simple six sided die. The attacking die have on 3 of the faces an arrow symbol. The defending die has on 2 of the faces a shield. After the die rolls are made, the number of arrows are subtracted from the number of shields and this gives the number of spaces the defender is pushed directly aside. If the number of shields outnumber the number of arrows, then the attacker is pushed asided by this amount. For example, the attacker rolls 3 arrows and the defender rolls 2 shields, the defender is pushed one square aside.

Then each opponent made a seperate die roll for damage. Where each rolled a number of die equal to their speed, and on a 6 they received damage.

This works ok, but there is a couple of things I don't like about it.

1) Way too much die. Having seperate defending and attacking dice is a pain.
2) Having to make a seperate damage roll seems also a pain. It would be nice to make one roll that includes the information of damage as well.
3) The damage rolls are equal in scoring damage regardless of attacker and defender. I would like the attacker have a greater chance of scoring more damage.

One thought I came up with is having one set of dice (no seperate attacking and defending dice) and including the damage on the dice as well.

Now each die will have 3 arrow symbols and 2 shield symbols on it. Also for one arrow symbol and one shield symbol you have an explosion symbol next to it indicating damage. So now both players roll the same set of dice, however, the attacker will only read the arrows and the defender will only read the shields. If the attacker reads an arrow with an explosion symbol, then he does the defender one damage. If the defender reads a shield with an explosion then the defender does one damage to the defender.

So for example the attacker rolls two dice and gets an arrow with an explosion, and a shield. The defender rolls a nothing and an arrow. The attacker pushes the defender one square aside and causes one damage. The defender does not cause any damage to the attacker.

What do you guys think? Do you think it makes things too messy for players only to read their symbols? I also have not solved the attacker scoring more damage. I guess I could put another damage symbol on one of the arrows.

Also, for an unintentional ram (ram done due to skidding out) I would like the odds for both for damage to be the same, and the amount of damage more.

Right now I am not convinced of trying to include the damage on the one set of dice, but instead of having seperate dice for damage and a seperate die roll.

What do you think?

--DarkDream

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Thu, 04/29/2004 - 16:28
#1
Fos
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

It sounds like you want to add some randomness in the attack, but the strategy is trying to ram a slow moving chariot at high speeds.

If that's the case, it might work like this: the defender roles a D6 and if he gets a number greater than the difference of the two chariots' speeds (0 for stopped to 5 for top speed), he successfully defends. If he doesn't, he's pushed aside one square and takes one damage, and if the attacker fails, say he's pushed aside two squares (because he's going really fast) and takes one damage. Or you can tweak those amounts during the playtest.

This may be far too simple for what you're planning... how important is it that a chariot might pushed aside more than one space? How important is the risk associated in ramming? Are there other ways to attack that might make that risk worthwhile? Am I correct in the basic strategy of ramming?

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Thu, 04/29/2004 - 17:03
#2
zaiga
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

DarkDream,

What if the die looks like this:

Side 1: Arrow
Side 2: Arrow with explosion
Side 3: Arrow with explosion
Side 4: Shield
Side 5: Shield with explosion
Side 6: Skidmark

The rules woulf then be:
- Attacker and defender roll number of dice equal to their speed.
- For each arrow with explosion rolled by the attacker he does 1 damage to defender.
- For each shield with explosion rolled by the defender he does 1 damage to attacker.
- If attacker rolled more arrows than defender rolled shields, the attacker may move the defender's chariot X spaces, where X is the difference between the number of arrow and shields rolled.
- If defender rolled more shields than attacker rolled arrows, the defender may move the attacker's chariot X spaces, where X is the difference between the number of arrow and shields rolled.

The skidmark is only important during unintentional rams. One skidmark rolled doubles the amount of damage. If two skidmarks are rolled the damage is tripled, if three skidmarks are rolled the damage is quadrupled, etc. This keeps the odds the same, but has the potential to do more damage.

I think this system would work well enough and is not far off from what you came up with. This way you would only need ten dice at max (5 for both defender and attacker, if they are both at max speed)

A simpler system would be to leave off the explosion symbols and simply count the difference in shields and arrows and let this be both the damage done to the loser and the number of spaces they may move the loser's chariot. However, this would mean that only one chariot would only receive damage. Also, it would be possible that neither of the chariots receives damage, which is less realistic. Then again, it is a lot simpler and probably faster, so it depends on where you want to go with the game.

Yet another method would be have to have three sides with arrows, two sides with shields and one side with an explosion symbol. In this case you would determine the number of spaces moved by the difference in shields and arrows, as normal. However, the damage done would be the number of arrows (if attacker, otherwise shields) multiplied by the number of explosion symbols. For example, if the attacker has speed four and rolls 1 shield, 2 arrows and 1 explosion symbol, he does 2 damage to the defender.

Using this last mechanic would mean that damage becomes potentially more severe when speeds are higher, which is realistic. Also, the attacker will usually do more damage than the defender. To make it so that unintentional rams are more dangerous, you could have players roll one more die than their chariot's speed. This would slightly skew the odds towards the attacker, but not so much that it matters a lot.

I hope this was somewhat useful.

Good luck!

René Wiersma

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Thu, 04/29/2004 - 17:47
#3
SVan
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Joined: 10/02/2008
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

zaiga wrote:

Yet another method would be have to have three sides with arrows, two sides with shields and one side with an explosion symbol. In this case you would determine the number of spaces moved by the difference in shields and arrows, as normal. However, the damage done would be the number of arrows (if attacker, otherwise shields) multiplied by the number of explosion symbols. For example, if the attacker has speed four and rolls 1 shield, 2 arrows and 1 explosion symbol, he does 2 damage to the defender.

Using this last mechanic would mean that damage becomes potentially more severe when speeds are higher, which is realistic. Also, the attacker will usually do more damage than the defender. To make it so that unintentional rams are more dangerous, you could have players roll one more die than their chariot's speed. This would slightly skew the odds towards the attacker, but not so much that it matters a lot.

To me this would be the best solution. It wouldn't take all that long to roll the dice and figure the outcome, just make more game components. Dice aren't that expensive, even custom made, and it would probably make the game better.

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Thu, 04/29/2004 - 19:05
#4
DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

Zaiga,

You have a keen mind for mechanics, and I am glad you commented. You have got some great ideas here!

To reply to Fos first, I am trying to represent basic physics with the ramming. The basic premise is that the faster you are moving the more you can move your opponent and the more damage you can do. However, the faster the defender is moving, the less chance you have of moving the defender.

If you do a simple momentum vector diagram with one vector going north (the Defender) and a smaller vector moving to the right and touching the defender's vector, you will see that the faster the defender is moving the less of angle from 90 degrees the resultant vector will be. Also the greater the value of the attacker's vector, the greater angle the resultant vector will be. In otherwords, if you ram a vehical traveling at a slower speed, you will push it more than a vehical traveling at a higher speed.

I think it is a lot more exciting and interesting if you have the chance to bump a chariot a multiple amount of squares - but only at higher speeds - and also having a random amount of damage (in both cases giving the attacker of an intentional ram an edge).

Zaiga, to get back to your comments:

Quote:
What if the die looks like this:

Side 1: Arrow
Side 2: Arrow with explosion
Side 3: Arrow with explosion
Side 4: Shield
Side 5: Shield with explosion
Side 6: Skidmark

The rules woulf then be:
- Attacker and defender roll number of dice equal to their speed.
- For each arrow with explosion rolled by the attacker he does 1 damage to defender.
- For each shield with explosion rolled by the defender he does 1 damage to attacker.
- If attacker rolled more arrows than defender rolled shields, the attacker may move the defender's chariot X spaces, where X is the difference between the number of arrow and shields rolled.
- If defender rolled more shields than attacker rolled arrows, the defender may move the attacker's chariot X spaces, where X is the difference between the number of arrow and shields rolled.

The skidmark is only important during unintentional rams. One skidmark rolled doubles the amount of damage. If two skidmarks are rolled the damage is tripled, if three skidmarks are rolled the damage is quadrupled, etc. This keeps the odds the same, but has the potential to do more damage.

For your first suggestion, having two arrows with explosions and one side with a skidmark is a good one. I leave this suggestion for now to look at the other ones.

To quote:

Quote:
A simpler system would be to leave off the explosion symbols and simply count the difference in shields and arrows and let this be both the damage done to the loser and the number of spaces they may move the loser's chariot. However, this would mean that only one chariot would only receive damage. Also, it would be possible that neither of the chariots receives damage, which is less realistic. Then again, it is a lot simpler and probably faster, so it depends on where you want to go with the game.

Your second simpler system is a lot simpler and elegant. Basically, for every square you are pushed you recieve 1 damage. It definitely would be faster. As you pointed out, there would not be so much damage done. It would also mean that only one side could ever take damage (not both attacker and defender) and that if both sides do not move then neither takes damage. The allocation of damage is rather deterministic as well which kind of takes the fun out of it. To me these two things make it a little unrealistic, yet it does make things a lot simpler. I think your next suggestion is better.

To quote your third idea:

Quote:
Yet another method would be have to have three sides with arrows, two sides with shields and one side with an explosion symbol. In this case you would determine the number of spaces moved by the difference in shields and arrows, as normal. However, the damage done would be the number of arrows (if attacker, otherwise shields) multiplied by the number of explosion symbols. For example, if the attacker has speed four and rolls 1 shield, 2 arrows and 1 explosion symbol, he does 2 damage to the defender.

Your idea of having one of the die with an explosion symbol is a great one. To add a minimal amount of complexity, you now have a more random distribution of damage. You could still move the person one square and do a lot of damage, or no damage at all. This makes things more realistic as ramming two chariots together is not an exact science and it seems to me that damage would be rather up in the air.

I think I will use this method to test out.

To quote:

Quote:
Using this last mechanic would mean that damage becomes potentially more severe when speeds are higher, which is realistic. Also, the attacker will usually do more damage than the defender. To make it so that unintentional rams are more dangerous, you could have players roll one more die than their chariot's speed. This would slightly skew the odds towards the attacker, but not so much that it matters a lot.

This is another good idea. Or another idea is for every explosion symbol you *double* the damage per arrow. So for example, the attacker rolls three dice and gets an arrow, a second arrow and an explosion. This would be for four damage.

I should have been more explicit with the unintentional ramming. I want the damage to be around the same and at the same odds for both the attacker and defender. The reason I want this, is that it will not encourage people so much to go super fast around the curve hoping to spin out and take out other people on the turns. By increasing the amount of damage (which is realistic as the actual collision is not controlled) and making the amount equal or both the defender and attacker have the same odds for damage, I can discourage such a maneuver in the game.

However, to make another rule does complicate things. Do you think my concern is warranted?

The only thing I can think to make the odds equal for damage with an unintential ram is by adding up the damage done both to the defender and the attacker and both of them taking this sum of damage.

What do you guys think?

Zaiga, thanks again for your response. It really helped. Sorry to bug you like that, but I knew you could really contribute something really good.

Any ideas from others would be greatly appreciated.

--DarkDream

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Thu, 04/29/2004 - 19:47
#5
DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Bummer

Darn,

I was looking at Zaiga's idea I found to be the most promising (having the explosion on one side of the die) to indicate the allocating of damage. The problem is that on average players will be going at speed level three and thus roll three die.

Using basic probability theory, the odds of not getting an explosion on all three dice is 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 25/36 which equals around 70%. Thus you will only have possibility of causing damage 30% of the time. This is way too low for my liking.

If we have two side of the die with the explosion symbol, then the odds of not getting an explosion on three dice is 4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 = 16/36 which is around 44%. Thus having the possibility of damage is around 66%. This is much better. Now the problem is that I've ruined my three arrow to two shield ratio. My only solution to this is:

Side 1: arrow
Side 2: arrow
Side 3: arrow & shield symbol (wildcard)
Side 4: shield
Side 5: explosion
Side 6: explosion

If the attacker is rolling the dice rolls a die with side 3, the side becomes an arrow. If the defender rolls side three, it is a shield.

Or my other altenative is to move up to a d8 and have three arrow symbols, two shield symbols and two explosion symbols. Getting at least one explosion symbol on 3 eight sided die would be around 60%.

Does this sound viable to any of you? Any suggestion on the symbol?

--DarkDream

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Thu, 04/29/2004 - 22:01
#6
Fos
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

DarkDream wrote:
To reply to Fos first, I am trying to represent basic physics with the ramming. The basic premise is that the faster you are moving the more you can move your opponent and the more damage you can do. However, the faster the defender is moving, the less chance you have of moving the defender.

Sounds interesting. How easy is it to catch up to a player after you've hit them? Is it strategically favorable to ram an opponent multiple squares (perhaps into a wall, causing more damage)?

Sounds like a fun game though, and it definitely needs to be as fast as possible (especially when you aren't hitting anyone, but flying around the board at each other). Good luck. :)

edit: figured out in the chat tonight that this is a chariot racing game, not a chariot dueling game. My mistake. I was thinking Gladiator, not Sparticus, and I'm a worse person for it.

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Fri, 04/30/2004 - 09:59
#7
SVan
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Joined: 10/02/2008
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

Two questions I have that may help you as well:

1. If a player (the attacker) rolls 4 dice and gets 2 arrows and 2 explosions, then the attacker will do 4 damage. Is this correct?

2. What if a player (lets say the attacker again) rolls 3 dice and gets 3 explosions. Techinically he should do zero damage, but I think he should do a damage for each explosion even if there isn't an arrow there. (If I remember right, the arrows also move the player that was rammed, as in if a player gets 2 arrows, the player rammed is moved 2 spaces.)

Edit: You only put 7 sides on your d8, although I think for what you are aiming after the d6 with the wildcards would work better than the d8.

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Fri, 04/30/2004 - 12:33
#8
nosissies
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Joined: 07/26/2008
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

Looks like you've got a/a couple of good suggestions already, so I'm going to post this to hopefully help, but just as much to see how other folks approach a problem like this.

On seeing something like this that needs to be resolved, I guess my first questions would aim at bounding the problem (which I don't think has been done here yet). I wanted to come up with a novel solution for you, but I kept running into these nagging questions....

1)what is the distribution of damage points which you want to be incurred by the rammer and the rammee? That is, what is the maximum/minimum amount damage someone might incur? how often should those cases occur with respect to other average/common cases?

2)what is the distrubution of the number of spaces a rammer/rammee is pushed? Same here min/max/occurence etc.

How these distributions are set up will no doubt effect the game play, so if you have a feel for this, DD, could you fill us in on what sort of distributions you would hope to achieve?

So, this how I might approach this if I were to do so cerebrally, but I'd e just as likely to make something up and try it, but even then, I do have some notion of what I think is a desireable distribution.

peace,
Tom

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Fri, 04/30/2004 - 13:03
#9
DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

Svan,

To answer you first question, you take the number of explosions and multiply it by the number of arrows (if attacker) or shields if (defender). In the scenario you described, yes, if the attacker rolls 2 arrows and 2 explosions that would result in 4 damage.

For your second question, I considered exactly the same thing. If there is a roll of just explosions, is damage caused? According to the rules so far, as there are no arrows (if attacker) and shields (if defender) multiplying 0 by 3 explosions, for example, still results in 0 damage.

Let's see what the laws of probability tell us about the frequency of similar type events. To begin the probabilty of getting three explosions on three dice would be 2/6 * 2/6 * 2/6 = 6/216 is around a 3% chance or occuring. Next lets say you have an attacker that rolls 2 explosions followed by a shield. That would be 2/6 * 2/6 * 1/6 = 2%. Let's go ahead and have the attacker roll one explosion and two shields. That would be 2/6 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 2/216 which is around 1%. If I have done my calculations correctly, the frequency of this type of event is so minimal I don't think it warrents an extra rule. Thus I would say it does zero damage.

I do think using d6 would be better than a d8. It is a more standard form of dice and has nice large faces to have symbols on. The wildcard side is not ideal, but I don't think it is that bad for players to understand and play with.

Svan, thanks for your thoughtful comments and questions.

--DarkDream

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Fri, 04/30/2004 - 13:13
#10
SVan
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Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

As I've found out many times in Settlers of Catan, probablities don't mean much when you're rolling dice. But still I agree with you, if something like that happens, then there shouldn't be any damage.

For the wildcard, you could always put a shield with an arrow inside of it. That would be unique and easy to recognize.

Good luck with the game!

Steve

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Fri, 04/30/2004 - 13:38
#11
DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

nosissies,

I think you have a good point of wanting to "frame" a particular mechanic. It definitely helps to have a context from which the mechanic comes from with also an idea of the limits which the solution needs to be bounded.

The context of the mechanic is 2 chariots colliding with each other. There is a total of 8 lanes.

To answer your questions:

1) A regular chariot has 5 points of damage while an elite chariot has 7. The average speed is around level 3. For an average speed ram, damage should be around 1-2 points for both the defender and attacker, but with the attacker having a slight advantage in occuring damage over the defender. Maximum amounts of damage (for the higher speed collisions) should be around 5-7. Cases of causing enough damage to completly trash a chariot should never occur in the lower speeds, and quite infrequently for the higher speeds. There should be the possibility of incurring no damage, but should not be as frequent as scoring damage. Obviously, at higher speeds, the chance of scoring no damage should be fairly slim.

2) As for the pushing, some rams will result in no squares pushed. Again, the higher the speed, this chance should be less. For a ram at average speed, moving a chariot at average, the average amount of spaces pushed should be 1 space. For higher speeds the maximum ever should be 3 spaces. I am going to make the rule that if a chariot is pushed 3 spaces, it automatically fllips and crashes. For a ram at higher speeds, this should not occur too often and never for lower speeds and rarely with average speeds.

Tom, I hope this helps you and gives you a chance to materialize your idea.

Thanks,

--DarkDream

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Fri, 04/30/2004 - 19:58
#12
DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Tallying Test Results

I went ahead and took my dice with the following design:

Side 1: arrow
Side 2: arrow
Side 3: arrow & shield
Side 4: shield
Side 5: explosion
Side 6: explosion

I went ahead and did the most common scenario of the attacker rolling three dice and the defender rolling three dice 100 times. Here is a summary of the results:

Event %
------------------------------------------------------
Defender pushed 3 squares 4
Defender pushed 2 squares 19
Defender pushed 1 square 32
Nothing 23
Attacker pushed 1 square back 10
Attacker pushed 2 squares back 8
Attacker pushed 3 squares back 3

To summarize, 55% of the time the defender is pushed away, 23% of the time neither the attacker nor defender is pushed away. Finally, 21% of the time the attacker is pushed back.

As for damage, here is the results:

Event %
--------------------------------------------------------------
Attacker is only damaged 28
Both attacker and defender damaged 15
Defender is only damaged 30
Neither is damaged 27

To summarize, damage occurs 73% of the time and both the defender and the attacker get damaged around an equal amount of the time (45% for defender and 43% for attacker), with both being damaged around 15% of the time.

I then went ahead and changed the dice so the wild card side was placed with an arrow, thus leaving the die with only one shield. The results of 100 roles turned to the following:

Event %
------------------------------------------------------
Defender pushed 3 squares 7
Defender pushed 2 squares 29
Defender pushed 1 square 26
Nothing 30
Attacker pushed 1 square back 7
Attacker pushed 2 squares back 2
Attacker pushed 3 squares back 0

This changed things to where now 62% of the time the defender is pushed away (opposed to 55% of the time with the first method). Around 30% of the time neither is pushed away (contrast this with 23%). Finally, the attacker is only pushed away around 9% of the time (opposed to 21%). Notice, that when the defender is pushed away, the odds are approximately equal for being pushed away 1 or 2 squares.

As for damage, here are the results:

Event %
--------------------------------------------------------------
Attacker is only damaged 14
Both attacker and defender damaged 12
Defender is only damaged 41
Neither is damaged 33

Damage with this dice occurs around 67% of the time (opposed to 73%). Now the attacker does damage to the defender around 53% of the time while the defender does damage to the attacker around 26% of the time. With the first way, both attacker and defender would injure each other an approximately equal amount of time. Here the attacker injures the defender twice for every time the defender injures the attacker.

The reason I'm relating this is to get input on which dice they think is better (the one with the wildcard symbol of a sword and shield or the one with only one shield and three arrows).

For me, I like the first version better as it is a lot more likely to push the defender one square opposed to two squares (realistic). The only problem I see is that around a little over a fifth of the time the attacker himself is pushed back. This seems kind of weird, and way too frequent for me. After all the attacker is the one ramming. Maybe this is a fun thing for players, what do you guys think?

If I were to use this method then maybe I would have to make a rule that an attacker can not be pushed back.

Another thing that's not all that great is that the attacker and defender approximately get injured an equal amount of time. This is ok, as long as the attacker has a slight advantage in damage -- if not then there is not so much of a reason for an attacker to ram. Looking at the results for the total damage done for each, gave the attacker 83 total damage points to 72 total points (a difference of 10).

Looking at the second method, it does have some positive things about it. First of all the percentage chance of a defender being pushed away is down to 9% of the time. This is a more livable number. The percentage of pushing the defender away is up to 62% from 55%. There is no big deal here, although I like 55% a little better. The main problem I have with this method, is that the defender is pushed 2 squares away more than 1 square away. Realistically, you would have a greater chance pushing the chariot one square away.

This method also has damage being done to the defender twice the number of times as the attacker being damaged. This I would like to see a little lower, although damage occurs 67% of the time which is ok. Tallying the amount of damage it turns out the attacker did 86 amount of damge to 35 amount of damage (less than half as much). To me this is way too much of an advantage to the attacker.

Another negative is that any time a player gets pushed 3 squares the chariot flips. With the first method this will only happen around 4% of the time (less than 1 in 20 times). This seems ok to me. With the second method, this happens around 7% of the time which is way too much.

If I had to choose, I would still go with the first way. This way a rammer has around even odds pushing the defender away. I think I would have to rule out the attacker being pushed back. For damage, the attacker would score damage about an equal amount of time, but will have a slight tendency to score more damage.

What do you guys think is better?

If this doesn't work out, I'll have to go maybe the eight sideded die route.

--DarkDream

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Sat, 05/01/2004 - 14:13
#13
Deviant
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

Not having played your game, I can't judge statistically what is *right*, only what I feel is right. I agree that the first way is better. Ramming a chariot isn't an exact science, so a 50-60% success rate sounds about right. Probability of damage is the same for both the attacker and the defender, not "almost" the same - 30/28 is close enough to be within the margin of error. There is a 30% chance that either the defender or the attacker would be damaged, as I think you would see if you rolled, oh, 500 times. Realistically, I see no reason why the attacker should suffer less damage than the defender, especially since the attacker has an even-or-better chance of pushing the defender and only a 20-25% chance of pushing back. Except that part is pretty weird. I think you're right; go ahead and add the rule "the attacker can not be pushed". So chariot ramming becomes about what I'd expect it to be in real life - a reckless and desperate maneuver that can cost you as much as your target.

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Sat, 05/01/2004 - 16:06
#14
DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

Deviant,

Thanks for taking the time to read my results. Many people I believe would simply start reading it loose interest real fast, and get a head ache (it almost gave me a headache compiling the darn thing).

I'm not looking for what is statistically right. I don't even know where to begin as to what is statisically right (a ram should be successful x amount of time, the defender should get damaged y amount of time and so on). Unfortunately, chariot racing doesn't exist anymore and there is no way to compile figures and so on.

The type of answer you gave is *exactly* what I am looking for -- a more intuitive answer based on reason.

To quote:

Quote:
Ramming a chariot isn't an exact science, so a 50-60% success rate sounds about right.

I agree with you, this feels right. Even if the horses collide together, there is nothing to say that the other team of horses is pushed aside. From a game standpoint, you do not want to make the game where a ramming player has a super good chance of pushing the other player, as it would make it too automatic and take the fun away.

To quote:

Quote:
Probability of damage is the same for both the attacker and the defender, not "almost" the same - 30/28 is close enough to be within the margin of error.

Yes, your right. The small difference is not statistically significant.

Quote:
Realistically, I see no reason why the attacker should suffer less damage than the defender, especially since the attacker has an even-or-better chance of pushing the defender and only a 20-25% chance of pushing back.

This point also adds credence to the idea that ramming is not an exact science. As such, the allocation of damage should be close to the same. However, I do think the attacker should have a slightly greater chance of scoring *more* damage. As I pointed out in my previous post the attacker did 83 total damage to the defenders 72 points of damage. This is simply attributed to the fact that one chariot has a directed smash into another.

Quote:
I think you're right; go ahead and add the rule "the attacker can not be pushed".

I will definitely make the rule the attacker can't be pushed. It just seems "weird" as you said.

Quote:
So chariot ramming becomes about what I'd expect it to be in real life - a reckless and desperate maneuver that can cost you as much as your target.

I think you summed it up great. I think this is a fairly intuitive and realistic approach which the first method does support.

Deviant, what do you think of unintentional ramming? Do you think there should be anything different in terms of damage? I see unintentional ramming an even worse form of ramming with really no control and skill at all. A even more random event where each party gets damaged pretty badly.

Thanks again,

--DarkDream

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Tue, 05/04/2004 - 04:52
#15
Anonymous
another option...

howdy. this is my first post, so hooray for me :)

...anyhoo, i was thinking a bit about your problem. I personally don't like games to be decided purely on the dice, i like some element of choice as well, so how about this:

six-sided die with the following sides

arrow
arrow
arrow/explosion
shield
shield/explosion
arrow/shield/explosion

in this case, the explosion does damage to the person rolling it. each player rolls the number of dice relevant to their speed, and chooses any they want to use: they do not have to choose any of them if they want. The attacker only counts arrows, the defender only shields (one side counts as both). You'll see that while the attacker has a 1/2 chance of rolling non-damaging pushes, the defender only has 1/3. Each player will be left with a choice if they roll explosions: take the damage but reduce (or increase, if attacking) the push , or take the push and not the damage. This allows people to play agressively if they wish to stay in lane, or to ride out the push and take minmal damege, but possibly lose a positional advantage.

hope that's of some use :)

cthol

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Tue, 05/04/2004 - 15:16
#16
DarkDream
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Interesting. . .

Thanks for the idea.

What you have is really quite interesting. I can see by allowing the player to have a choice you make them weigh whether to push more and take more damage or push less or not at all and take less or no damage. The mechanic you presented does indeed acheive this.

From a thematic stand point, I am sort of weary of the mechanic. Ramming, I believe, was not an exact science where a ramming player had very little control over the way a ram was carried out. By giving the player control (and I understand your reason behind it -- reducing the amount of randomness to add a bit of skill involved in decision making), this seems to run against the pathos of chariot racing. Also, I want things to go fast, and the amount of brain rumination for what rolls to accept or ignore may slow things down.

Anyway, it is definitely a neat mechanic that may apply to some other game. I just don't think it may work with this one.

[Edit: After reading Svan's comment. I think he is right, I'll give it a go and see. Thanks again.]

Thanks for you input,

--DarkDream

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Tue, 05/04/2004 - 15:25
#17
SVan
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Joined: 10/02/2008
Re: Interesting. . .

DarkDream wrote:

From a thematic stand point, I am sort of weary of the mechanic. Ramming, I believe, was not an exact science where a ramming player had very little control over the way a ram was carried out. By giving the player control (and I understand your reason behind it -- reducing the amount of randomness to add a bit of skill involved in decision making), this seems to run against the pathos of chariot racing. Also, I want things to go fast, and the amount of brain rumination for what rolls to except or ignore may slow things down.

I didn't understand this mechanic at first, but I do think it is a much better mechanic choice wise. It would take a little longer to calculate but don't think it would slow down the game all that much.

I think you should playtest it using this way and the other ways you like until you figure out which one you and the players like better. Sometimes it is more important to forget the theme if the mechanic makes the game a better play.

-Steve

p.s. I think there's been a lot of good mechanics listed in this thread. I'm sure there is something here that will work well with your game. Good luck with it! (Keep us posted also!)

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Thu, 05/06/2004 - 03:26
#18
ycyclop
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Joined: 11/12/2008
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

There is an old fashion way to solve your problem and that is using a die/dice roll with a result table. You can set the number of dice rolled according to the speed, and have a modifier also for example:
1: 1 die
2: 1 die+1
3: 1 die +2
4: 2 dice
5: 2 dice +1
You also have a control over the value of the dice: 1-6 or 1-3 or go wild and use a 4 sided die.
Then the table will have the results of who is pushed how many places and the damage.
One good thing about this method is that you can decide what the percentages of things are and then adjust the table accordingly.
Some companies over used this system (AH for example) but still when used properly it is an excellent system.

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Fri, 05/07/2004 - 14:14
#19
DarkDream
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

Ycyclop,

Thanks for your input. A dice/roll table would definitely work and it has the advantage of being able to control the probability of certain dice rolls a lot more. However, I personally dislike dice roll tables as I want the game to go fast without having to reference a table.

There are certain situations where they really are advantagous, but for a key mechanic as skidding and ramming I just don't want to include it.

If you look at the AH chariot racing game "Circus Maximus" it is a game filled with tables. This is something I want to avoid to make it a simple, fast game that will apeal to a large (hopefully non-gamer) audience.

Anyway, I appreciate your input.

--DarkDream

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Fri, 05/07/2004 - 15:04
#20
ycyclop
Offline
Joined: 11/12/2008
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

Hi DarkDream
Another option that I thought of that would be more appropriate under the defined condition is a small bag with tokens drawn out of it with the following type of tokens:
1: Empty – nothing happens
2: Push mark: the drawer pushes his opponent one place.
3: Explosion mark: the drawer cause damage to his opponent.
4: Explosion + push mark: the two above combined.
The attacker and defender draw from the bag tokens as their speed. The person with the higher push marks pushes the other the number of difference in the push marks.
With the explosion you can do two things:
1: The person with the higher explosion causes damage as the difference is.
2: Both inflict damage as drawn explosion.
Advantages of this system:
1: Simple and both attack and defender use the same tokens.
2: Fast to resolve.
3: by setting the number of tokens of each type in the bag you can control the statistical behavior of the draw. But you must remember that not like dice throwing that are independent statistical events, drawing out of the bag are depended statistical events and the calculation be done accordingly.
After the result is checked tokens are returned into the bag.
-- ycyclop

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Fri, 05/07/2004 - 15:13
#21
SVan
Offline
Joined: 10/02/2008
Need Help with Ramming Die Roll Mechanic

ycyclop wrote:
Another option that I thought of that would be more appropriate under the defined condition is a small bag with tokens drawn out of it with the following type of tokens:

Drawing things out of bags has become something I like using, but I didn't think about this method. This sounds a little more interesting and unique than the dice rolling. I think I will have to try it in one of my designs. Thanks for the Idea!

-Steve

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