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War Columns

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JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969

This is my first game that I'm seeking feedback on here. I have two others in progress, but this is the one that's keeping me up nights. :)

It's a CCG style game, but the vision is for it to not be collectable (assuming it even gets as far as publication). The rules, 27 sample cards and the player mat can all be found at:

http://www.bgdf.com/files/My_Uploads/JeffK

My current concerns are:

1 - Theme. It's straight up fantasy, which is of course is hardly a neglected genre. Is the overdone theme a problem in this particular game? I think it fits the mechanics well, but will others? Even worse, perhaps, the basic Unit types are Soldier, Rogue, Wizard and Priest. Granted, this was for ease of design, but I think it works well. Others may see it as far too generic.

2 - Too much text on some of the cards? I've always preferred having all unusual mechanics described on the cards themselves rather than having to refer to a rule book to explain them. How does everyone else feel?

3 - Too much like Magic? Personally, I think it plays VERY differently from Magic. However, all CCG style games eventually get compared to Magic and I want to be sure I've done enough to distinguish it.

4 - Too heavily weighted toward the attacker? In the game, an attacking player can order a combined assault, while the defender has no such option. This is directly OPPOSITE Magic - I've always preferred games that reward aggressive play (probably because I have the opposite tendency and need a push ). I was also concerned that adding in a "combined defense" rule might make it too tough to break through a good defense.

5 - Too random? There can be a LOT of dice rolled in an attack. In initial playtesting it didn't disrupt the flow of the game at all (there are only two sets of rolls - attacker rolls dice, defender rolls dice, resolve). Plus, lots of dice rolls are better than very few if you want reasonably guessable results. Very few CCG style games use dice, though, and it may put some people off.

Anyway, any feedback, however critical, is welcomed. Thanks for those who take the time to look it over.

Jeff K.

TheReluctantGeneral
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: War Columns

JeffK wrote:
1 - Theme. It's straight up fantasy

I think this is a matter of personal taste, and speaknig personally, the theme would put me off for the reasons you mentioned. But there's clearly a large market that likes generic fantasy. However, I'd personally prefer a more original theme (for example greek heroes, monsters and gods). But having a more original theme may put off more players than it attracts, so I don't know. I'm really not an expert on these types of games. I'd ask someone like Larienna, who seems to have worked on many such games.

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- Too much text on some of the cards?

I agree keeping the rulebook minimal is preferable. But if you have certain special abilities that crop of very often, try representing them with symbols on the card and having a quick reference sheet so players can easily look them up.

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3 - Too much like Magic? Personally, I think it plays VERY differently from Magic. However, all CCG style games eventually get compared to Magic and I want to be sure I've done enough to distinguish it.

I have skimmed the rulebook - but I think the use of dice serves to differentiate it from magic quite a bit. However the theme and the design of the cards (very nice by the way) do seem to be areas in which further differentiation could be achieved.

Can you quickly outline in which specific ways the gameplay differs very greatly from magic, in terms of strategy and tactics, and perhaps give some examples?

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4 - Too heavily weighted toward the attacker? ... I was also concerned that adding in a "combined defense" rule might make it too tough to break through a good defense.

Depends what sort of game you want. Taking away the possibilties for constructing good defences may limit the gameplay a bit, would be my main concern. Perhaps you could allow combined defence, but allow it to be circumvented by certain special abilities. And since you have columns, why not give extra advantages when attacking an enemy column which has no support from side and/or rear? This would add additional strategic consideration?

Quote:
5 - Too random? There can be a LOT of dice rolled in an attack. In initial playtesting it didn't disrupt the flow of the game at all (there are only two sets of rolls - attacker rolls dice, defender rolls dice, resolve). Plus, lots of dice rolls are better than very few if you want reasonably guessable results. Very few CCG style games use dice, though, and it may put some people off.

Dice per se are not a problem I think, but looking at the rules it was perhaps a little random for my taste. This can be addressed by tweaking the strength values and modifiers however.

Rather than use a simple cumulative modifier system and die roll, perhaps you could have special dice with symbols or colours, and have each card showing a symbol denoting which special dice they use. The outcome would then rest upon how the units are matched up (for example rogues do badly against soldiers but better against wizards). This may also have some merit in reducing randomness and providing for more strategic thinking and deployment of cards.

There is a card based battle game called 'Battleground: Fantasy Warefare' which uses cards and dice. You may find some inspiration there, if you have not seen it already.

Hope some of that helps.

NetWolf
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Joined: 12/31/1969
War Columns

Is it too much like M:tG? Yes, but only in the design element. Your example card is a modified Magic card, and you use the "Tap" arrow symbol in your instructions. Thos things definately need changed. Besides that, the game element seems interesting. I'd have to play it myself, but it looks like a decent concept.

JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: War Columns

TheReluctantGeneral wrote:

I'd personally prefer a more original theme (for example greek heroes, monsters and gods). But having a more original theme may put off more players than it attracts, so I don't know.

There's probably no correct answer here. On the one hand, as noted, it's been done and done and done. On the other hand, the archetypes "Wizard", "Rogue", "Sodier", and "Priest" are quickly understood by players, and may help them grasp the mechanics of my game that much faster. This will have to be a wait and see.

Quote:
I agree keeping the rulebook minimal is preferable. But if you have certain special abilities that crop of very often, try representing them with symbols on the card and having a quick reference sheet so players can easily look them up.

I like that idea, thanks. It may help declutter some of my cards.

Quote:
I have skimmed the rulebook - but I think the use of dice serves to differentiate it from magic quite a bit. However the theme and the design of the cards (very nice by the way) do seem to be areas in which further differentiation could be achieved.

Well, the reason they look so much like Magic cards is that they ARE, basically, Magic cards. :) I used MtG Editor to make them (found at http://mtglair.de/editor.shtml and the art is directly taken from Magic cards. Obviously all of that will need to be changed in the future, but I have zero artistic ability, I think the card art really helps the feel of the game and MtG Editor is great for whipping up prototype cards very quickly.

Quote:
Can you quickly outline in which specific ways the gameplay differs very greatly from magic, in terms of strategy and tactics, and perhaps give some examples?

Absolutely. The highlights are:

    1 - Obviously, the use of dice. I wanted more of a miniatures feel when it came to combat rather than the wholly deterministic approach used by Magic.

2 - War Columns uses an action point system. You have 5 actions per turn and can use those actions to draw a card, play a card, order a card (i.e. attack or use a special ability) or increase your supply.

3- Rather than holding resources in your hand (i.e. land cards), in War Columns you automatically gain 3 supply per turn and may increase it further by using action points as previously mentioned. Card costs range roughly from 5 to 18 supply.

4 - Rather than using "mana color" to differentiate decks, the Units themselves make the decks different. For example, if you want to cast a Fireball from your hand, you'll need some readied Wizards in play to do so, and wil need to "exhaust" (basically a double "tap") as well. If you want to resurrect a Unit, you'll need some readied Priests. Discard an opponent's cards? Readied Rogues. All of the "Strategy" cards require readied Units of a certain type, as do some other Units (Beasts often need Soldiers, Summoned Units needs Wizards or Priests). Thus, your available actions will be determined largely by what sorts of Units you have in your deck.

5 - "Support" cards, which are always in play, require Upkeep, either by paying some Supply every turn or by tiring Units of a certain type. Thus, it would be extremely difficult to have more than two "Support" cards in play due to the constant drain on your available resources.

6 - Unit position is critical. You can only attack your opponent's Leader if he has an empty column, and the attacking Unit must be in that same column. Close Combat Units can only attack Units that are directly in front of them, and Ranged Units have specified ranges for their attacks. Thus, you'll want stronger Units up front and your weaker Units with special abilities in the rear.

Those are the main differences. You know, perhaps it's just the Magic style cards that's making me worry about this one. :)

Quote:
And since you have columns, why not give extra advantages when attacking an enemy column which has no support from side and/or rear? This would add additional strategic consideration?

I really like that idea! I'll tinker a bit and see what comes of it. Thanks. :)

Quote:
Rather than use a simple cumulative modifier system and die roll, perhaps you could have special dice with symbols or colours, and have each card showing a symbol denoting which special dice they use. The outcome would then rest upon how the units are matched up (for example rogues do badly against soldiers but better against wizards). This may also have some merit in reducing randomness and providing for more strategic thinking and deployment of cards.

Non-transitive dice is a cool idea. My concerns would be a) the difficulty balancing non-transitive dice in an already difficult to balance game and b) the number of dice that would need to be included in the game. It's worth looking at though. Perhaps, rather than basing it on profession (which would be tough as the game also includes Beasts, Summoned Units and Undead) each Unit could have an attack type (i.e. slashing, piercing, crushing and energy) and an armor type (metal, cloth, hide and none). It could still be tough to balance, but the effort might be worth it.

Quote:
Hope some of that helps.

It was extremely helpful. I appreciate your time and will keep everyone apprised of the game's progress.

Jeff K.

[/]
JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969
War Columns

NetWolf wrote:
Is it too much like M:tG? Yes, but only in the design element. Your example card is a modified Magic card, and you use the "Tap" arrow symbol in your instructions. Thos things definately need changed. Besides that, the game element seems interesting. I'd have to play it myself, but it looks like a decent concept.

The design of the cards, as noted in my reply to The General, is merely for ease of prototyping. I'm teaching myself to use GIMP so I can create a unique look and feel for the cards.

If you'd like the try the game (or if anyone would), I can e-mail PDF's of the four current "starter" decks. Each is about 4 MB in size. PM me with any request, and thanks for the kind words.

Jeff K.

TheReluctantGeneral
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: War Columns

Thanks for the outline of the main features. It does sound like an interesting riff on the fighting card game.

TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
And since you have columns, why not give extra advantages when attacking an enemy column which has no support from side and/or rear? This would add additional strategic consideration?

Quote:
I really like that idea! I'll tinker a bit and see what comes of it. Thanks. :)

I think it gives it more of a miniatures feel, which is what you said you were after.

Quote:
Non-transitive dice is a cool idea.

I hadn't thought of what I suggested as a non-transitive system, though I guess it could be. Using special dice doesn't require that the system is fully non-transitive. For example soldiers may be better in close combat than any other unit type, and can have special dice which reflect that. This would not then be a non-transitive system.

Quote:
My concerns would be a) the difficulty balancing non-transitive dice in an already difficult to balance game and b) the number of dice that would need to be included in the game.

As an alternative consider using a CRT arranged as a five by five table giving a 'to hit' number for each unit match up. You could then add modifiers based on special abilities etc to the base to hit number. Easier to balance, and if you went for symbol based ability specification, then this relatively small CRT and other important reference material could all be collected together on one player reference card.

JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: War Columns

TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
Thanks for the outline of the main features. It does sound like an interesting riff on the fighting card game.

Thanks, I tried to really distinguish it and also address a lot of things that I didn't like about many CCG style games (i.e. "mana screws", the inevitable flood of cards in play that some decks create, the decreasing utility of low cost cards as the game progresses, etc.)

Quote:
I think it gives it more of a miniatures feel, which is what you said you were after.

Yes, that was one of my goals. At the very least I wanted to make a unit's position have an impact on the gameplay. At this point having rear Units support front Units is an extremely likely candidate for inclusion in the rules. :)

Quote:
I hadn't thought of what I suggested as a non-transitive system, though I guess it could be. Using special dice doesn't require that the system is fully non-transitive. For example soldiers may be better in close combat than any other unit type, and can have special dice which reflect that. This would not then be a non-transitive system.

Ah, I had misunderstood. I'll think about it, but still worry about the added complexity of balancing/card design. The effects could be very cool, though, and could result in a variety of results that might be difficult to achieve with regular dice (such as stuns, critical hits, fumbles etc.).

(By the way, the dice used are 10 sided - I realized belatedly that I didn't include that very basic piece of information in the rules!)

Quote:
As an alternative consider using a CRT arranged as a five by five table giving a 'to hit' number for each unit match up. You could then add modifiers based on special abilities etc to the base to hit number. Easier to balance, and if you went for symbol based ability specification, then this relatively small CRT and other important reference material could all be collected together on one player reference card.

CRT's may be a bit TOO wargamey/miniaturish. I'm not sure how it would affect the feel of the game. I'll add it to my list, though. I've already made several radical changes to the design of the game (it was originally 4 ranks deep per column, Units could move and they were played face up), so another one is not out of the question.

Thanks again for all the feedback. Keep 'em coming as long as you're willing. :)

TheReluctantGeneral
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: War Columns

JeffK wrote:

CRT's may be a bit TOO wargamey/miniaturish....Thanks again for all the feedback. Keep 'em coming as long as you're willing. :)

Just one more then :-)

If the separate CRT feels inappropriate, which is a viewpoint I completely understand for this kind of game, then consider keeping the CRT but 'distributing' it over the cards themselves. So each card gets five symbols along the top, and one number per symbol, which is the 'to hit' number when attacking units of the type represented by a given symbol.

And why use D10's rather than nice cheap d6's?

JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: War Columns

TheReluctantGeneral wrote:

If the separate CRT feels inappropriate, which is a viewpoint I completely understand for this kind of game, then consider keeping the CRT but 'distributing' it over the cards themselves. So each card gets five symbols along the top, and one number per symbol, which is the 'to hit' number when attacking units of the type represented by a given symbol.

That could be more feasable. So if the symbol were assigned to the armor type, each Unit could have a different symbol behind it's armor rating (for example, a Wizard may have a 2/3 with a Robe symbol behind it). For Attack, the Power would be fixed for each Unit while the Accuracy would depend on the Armor type of the defender. Or, it could even be reversed with the Power/Accuracy of the attacker fixed while the defender's Armor Coverage is fixed but the Armor Strength dependent on the attack type.

Again, balancing would be tricky but could be worth it. The big question is wether or not it might make deck construction too much of a headache. I would probably cut it down to 3 armor (Metal, Hide, and None) and 4 attack types (Slashing, Piercing, Crushing and Energy), just for simplicity's sake. That reduces the number of combinations from 25 to 12, and this isn't meant to be a deep wargame.

Quote:
And why use D10's rather than nice cheap d6's?

Given the current design, D6's didn't provide enough variability in results when it came to tweaking balance, especially for the very powerful units. Also, honestly, it made odds easier to calculate in my head. :)

JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969
War Columns

OK, I've made my first change based on one of The General's ideas.

A unit being attacked can now be assisted by adjacent units (in the same column or immediately to the left or right). These units add their armor dice when rolling for defense, and any wounds sustained can be distributed among all of the units involved.

The catch is that any assisting unit must be Ready (i.e. not Tired or Exhausted), and the act of assisting will Tire the unit.

Also, when an attacked unit counter-attacks, it must be Ready or Tired, and the act of counter-attacking will Tire a Ready unit and Exhaust a Tired unit. Assisting units may NOT counter-attack - only the unit that was targeted by the attack.

Thoughts?

Jeff K.

TheReluctantGeneral
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Joined: 12/31/1969
War Columns

I think that sounds pretty cool. I'm imagining one powerful card surrounded by a host of lesser cards there to protect the big baddie, and the opponent chipping away at these small guys so as to get in a fatal blow against the main man. Are adjacent cards allowed to assist in attacks?

Have you tried playtesting this version yet?

JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969
War Columns

I'll hopefully be able to playtest it tomorrow evening. I'm thinking this rule may help out the Soldier deck a bit (and they've needed it lately). That deck tends to have units with higher health, and thus you have more options for spreading out the Wounds. I think it will also offer more tactical choices - Tiring or Exhausting a unit during your turn means it won't be able to assist in defense during your opponent's turn.

And, yes, adjacent units can assist in attacks as well. This was necessary to help deal with very powerful units (like dragons) that are unusually difficult to kill. The balance here is that a coordinated attack takes one more action than usual. A normal attack, with one unit, costs one action. A coordinated attack costs one action + one action per unit involved. Thus, even a small coordinated attack with two units costs three of your five available actions, and the largest possible coordinated attack with four units will cost you all of your available actions for that turn.

Other things I'm considering adding (after this next round of "playability" play testing) include:
1 - Different armor/attack types, using icons as you suggested
2 - Battle Condition cards that can be played between the two armies (one card per column), perhaps from a seperate deck (each player with their own "mini-deck" of terrain). Different Battle Conditions (i.e. forests, swamps, rain, high winds, etc.) would effect different unit types in a variety of ways.
3 - Giving close combat units different attack "directions" (i.e. straight ahead, diagonal left and diagonal right).

Some (or all) of these will probably be found to make the game too cumbersome, but time will tell.

Jeff K.

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