That’s what I’m worried about with changes to the game; that nudging something could make the whole thing not work, and then more changes will be needed to put it back together again.
... or you could just reverse the changes that 'broke' the game ;)
since one Deed is added per turn, players need to be consuming an average of about one Deed per turn to keep the game stable (since Deed explosion = easy traitor win). Now, there will be some turns where you don’t do any Deeds, and some where you do a couple, so it roughly balances out.
Do you think this would change significantly?
A 5-cost Deed would take 3 turns to do. That just wouldn’t be viable, and would make the face-down pile much more important.
The way you talk about it I'm suprised there's a face down pile at all. If you don't want it to do anything, or to be important, then maybe there should only be face up piles of single symbols.
The face down pile is only more important when the cost is high, if at all, and at that point you can have Jesus do a deed and reduce the cost.
If you find that you or your players are adopting an “any Deed will do” approach and parlaying that to consistent victories, let me know!
Misa seemed to be doing any deed she could get her hands on, and with other people or Jesus present, and she was way ahead on the VP track all game. I finally causght up- in part because she had been doing any deed instead of targeting her goals, but also in large part because my goals were very complimentary (and one was potentially unbalanced- the gospels one). Even with me getting a huge payoff for my goals and her getting almost nothing (8-3), I only barely beat her, and she was soundly in second place.
Could you give an example of an Event you could envision that would seem more substantial?
Things like you have such as 'everyone in the same location as Jesus gets 1 Gospel' is a good start, but imagine if it were 3 Gospels or something and you knew it was coming but not exactly when... like the next event will be that one, and it will happen the next time someone advances the rome track... which means a deed that advances Rome, a couple that advance Jews toward Rome (I'd get rid of the + and - btw, and just have the card say "J -> P" or "R <- J"), or possibly a deed that itself has an E on it (there's currently 1, but could be more).
This would help drive players actions I think, and by making the reward (or Penalty) bigger, it would carry enough weight to matter. Another example is an event where everyone must discard 1 of each symbol (or something), and for each symbol they can't discard they lose a Gospel, and for each gospel they can't discard they lose a VP (or something).
I think that some of the events may seem minor (e.g., “Move Jesus to Bethsaida”), but in certain situations, each one can have an important impact on the game.
To me, this is a red flag. If random events are really situational then you are introducing a lot of luck into the game. If you are headed to the same town as Jesus and you know he might teleport to Bethsaida if 2 more Rome deeds are done, then that's your choice. If you are moving there and at the last minute he randomly disappears, that kinda sucks.
Also a good model for the “structured events” you’re advocating is Lord of the Rings, yet those events aren’t all that more consequential in scope than mine
Right, I'm suggesting you make yours sorta like that, but more substantial (some good, some bad) to help drive people's motivation to do certain deeds- that motivation could change during the game.
Also, as you progress in LotR, the events DO get more and more substantial. And LotR has a lot more events than your game, so yours could stand to be more substantial than those.
you have to also keep in mind that the intended audience of the game is slightly more casual gamers, so adding more functionality and effects to the tracks or to some other aspect of the game may not be desirable.
Um... I've made this comment in anotehr thread, I can't recall to whom or in reference to what... I wouldn't recommend making a game crappy simply because your intended audience isn't 'gamers'. By crappy I'm not saying that your game is crappy. I'm saying that if in any game there's something that could be more functional, and you opt not to make it so because your intended audience doesn't care or won't notice, then you're not making the best game you can make.
I’m also not sure that restructuring the Event system is the way to make the political tracks more interesting; the Rome track is really meant to be nothing more or less than a “game clock”
So right now players have incentive to not advance the Pharisees (except maybe 1 player), and TO advance Rome (except that same player). I don't see the tension. If the events were like obstacles, and were unwelcome at times so much that someone might pass on a Rome deed, then there's something interesting... if you prolong the game by not doing Rome deeds, then the traitor's scoring opportunity increases, but if you advance toward the game end, bad things happen. The other way to look at it is that the faster you finish the rome track, the less time the traitor has to advance the Pharisees.
The Jews track is meant to be a barometer for the other 2.
I'd like to point out that currently, it isn't. If it advanced the Rome track then maybe it could be considered a barometer for the other 2 (though I'm not sure that's a good analogy, but I know whatyou mean).
I could maybe spice up the Jews track by putting an Event trigger on the “0” position. This would get a lot more events into the game.
I don't like the csound of that very much.
But ultimately, it sounds like your concern is that the events themselves don’t affect the game enough. Hence my question what kinds of events you could envision that would effect the game.
My problem I think is that the events are too random, and thattheir effects are small much of the time. Il'l think about what might be better, but probably much of the stuff you have is good- it just needs to be larger on the reward/penalty end I think.
Not a bad thought, but the advantage of the current wording is that it protects the Thaddeus player from other players scooping up all the healing deeds and leaving him out cold.
I didn't think of that, but then why bother persuing the goal? And what motivation do the other players have to scoop those goals up?
- Seth
Something that is “metastable” is in between stable and unstable. Think of a pencil that’s perfectly balanced on its point, for example. It can stay there forever, but if it gets the slightest nudge, it will become unstable, and fall. That’s what I’m worried about with changes to the game; that nudging something could make the whole thing not work, and then more changes will be needed to put it back together again.
I think, though, that changing the negative end of the Jews track such that it advances the Rome track is hopefully minor enough that it won’t destroy the game. You can make this change in your prototype, if you’d like.
Ok, I see your thinking here. I would make a couple of observations on this subject. First, since one Deed is added per turn, players need to be consuming an average of about one Deed per turn to keep the game stable (since Deed explosion = easy traitor win). Now, there will be some turns where you don’t do any Deeds, and some where you do a couple, so it roughly balances out.
I wouldn’t say that I want players to be able to draw the cards they need to do a Deed in the same turn; in fact, I’d say quite the opposite. The only time you can draw cards and do a deed in the same turn is when the Deed costs 2. Other than that, it takes 2 separate turns to draw enough symbols from the face-up piles to do the 3- and 4- cost Deeds. Of course, you can sometimes get lucky by going to the face-down pile, and I like that this is possible. But I also want to make it realistic to be able to do any Deed by being patient and going to the face-up piles. A 5-cost Deed would take 3 turns to do. That just wouldn’t be viable, and would make the face-down pile much more important.
I like the idea of more variation on the tracks, but I don’t think it’s sufficient justification. It’s possible, however, that our play styles are quite different. For myself, I find that at any given time, I have one or two Deeds that I’m specifically targetting. If you find that you or your players are adopting an “any Deed will do” approach and parlaying that to consistent victories, let me know!
We’ve talked at our playtests about trying to reward the more expensive Deeds with more points, but I never really found a great way to do that, or even to study this effect.. Mike (fanaka) suggested that when you do a Deed, you get tokens equal to the amount of symbols you had to spend to do it, as a way of tracking this, but I haven’t ever tried it.
Ok, I understand the concern and the suggestion. I’ll watch the first turn a little more.
I still don’t believe there is such a problem, barring further evidence.
Ok, now I understand your point. Could you give an example of an Event you could envision that would seem more substantial? I think that some of the events may seem minor (e.g., “Move Jesus to Bethsaida”), but in certain situations, each one can have an important impact on the game. Also a good model for the “structured events” you’re advocating is Lord of the Rings, yet those events aren’t all that more consequential in scope than mine; e.g., “group discards 2 wild symbols, or else everyone rolls the die”. Yet, they work so well because each such occurence is a little step towards a big result (the loss of the game, in the case I mentioned.)
Possibly, but you have to also keep in mind that the intended audience of the game is slightly more casual gamers, so adding more functionality and effects to the tracks or to some other aspect of the game may not be desirable.
I’m also not sure that restructuring the Event system is the way to make the political tracks more interesting; the Rome track is really meant to be nothing more or less than a “game clock” (although I added some Event spaces to give it a little more pizzazz). The Jews track is meant to be a barometer for the other 2.
I could maybe spice up the Jews track by putting an Event trigger on the “0” position. This would get a lot more events into the game.
But ultimately, it sounds like your concern is that the events themselves don’t affect the game enough. Hence my question what kinds of events you could envision that would effect the game.
Not a bad thought, but the advantage of the current wording is that it protects the Thaddeus player from other players scooping up all the healing deeds and leaving him out cold.
Again, a decent idea, but adds more complexity. And more importantly, if the game doesn’t already scream out for this change, it may not be needed. I will note that the one thing it would do well would be to help strenghthen the types of goals that you mention above, as it would give a tangible way that you could “shape” the actions of other players.
This function could perhaps be given to Gospels; that you can place Gospel tokens on a Deed, and whoever performs that Deed receives the tokens.
Just thinking out loud with that one...
-J