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Jeff's PowWow recap

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jwarrend
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Been having computer problems lately, so I'm just popping in to post a quick PowWow recap....

My first PowWow was overall a very fun time.  Tom and I brought our families along, and in the interest of preserving family concord, we only gamed for about 6-7 hours each day, and we were there for 2 of the days.  Overall, I felt that it probably wasn't worth the expense of the trip for the limited amount of time I spent there.  In the future, I'd definitely want to try to spend more time gaming than I did, possibly by adding a third full day.  But for the time that I was there, it was enjoyable to be there, to meet some other designers, to reconnect with folks I've met before, and to try out some new games.  One thing I noticed was that folks weren't afraid to be brutally honest with their comments, and that was great, particularly because most could give very specific reasons as to what in a game was deficient.  It was also neat to see the range of designs that people were working on, some with just a basic deck of cards and some with very impressive production quality. 

 I'm not sure what I can say about the games of others, so for now I'll simply say that I played 2 of Gil's games, 1 of Michael's, and 1 of Tom's.  In addition, I saw jhager's game in the process of being played, and it looked great.  The game of Gil's that I've played before is improving steadily, and I think had he entered it now in the Doomed Civ contest, it would have a good shot at doing well.  Darn those contest deadlines!  I liked some of the ideas in the other game he put on the table.  Michael's game is in an early stage, but has some truly great ideas and I look forward to seeing it develop.  Tom's game is a simple little game that's surprisingly rich in theme for its simplicity, and it's in an intermediate state.

 I managed to get playtest sessions of Disciples and Sands of Time.  I'll mention the results of the sessions:

 DISCIPLES

Played w/Michael (49), Tom (30), Gil (31), and me (29).  Michael dominated the game, achieving 15 points from his goal cards and 12 points from Gospel tokens.  Gil drew the traitor card, and probably could have won early on - people were pretty indiscriminate about performing deeds that bumped up the Pharisees track - but later in the game, couldn't get the traction to win as Judas.  Michael and Tom both cranked out a ton of Gospel tokens, with Michael having 13 and Tom having 12.  Herein we see the danger of a 2-person cooperative Gospel machine, as Tom was left on the short end of the deal, but still got a respectable 9 points from Gospels.  Gil and I, having accumulated 7 tokens each, settled for 3 points. 

 
I continue to be happy with the game, and I'm hoping to try out a "goals drafting" variant whereby you get, say, 3 goal cards and you choose 2 to keep.  I think this will be more fun for experienced players, as one of the things I find enjoyable about the game is trying to make your goals work together.  This will be enhanced, I think, when you have some control over your goals.

 I'll probably try again later this month to start submitting the game.  We'll see how it goes!

 SANDS OF TIME

 I couldn't really find a good time window for this game, and so it finally came out on Sunday AM but no one had time for a full game.  There was some interest in the game, though, and we played through two turns.  Everyone liked the action selection mechanic, and the players seemed pleasantly surprised at how quick and punchy the turns are.  One of the onlookers conjectured that a first time playing might take as much as 4 hours, but he felt that this was forgivable if players could definitely come away from the first playing with an understanding of the game.  He reasoned, and I agreed, that players who seek to play a game like this will expect (or, at least, accept) an up-front investment of perhaps 1 playing to really get how the game works.

 Some changes are in the works.  First, prior to playing, I removed the aspect of combat whereby the winner can choose to "loot" the territory.  In practice, I just don't think this is important enough to the game to justify inclusion, and removing it makes combat simpler, and solely about expelling another player from a territory.

The achievement cards (which say, "If you did [this action], you get [achievement tokens of this type and amount]") feel incredibly fiddly - so much so that I even forgot to flip them several times!  I'm envisioning a new scheme for this: there will be 1 achievement card each round, and it gives the 3 categories (political, civic, cultural), and next to each, a Prefect ability that, if you use it, you'll get a token in that category.  So, for example, a card might have:  "Political:  Govern", and if you used the "Govern" ability, you'd get a political achievement token.  The particularly nice thing about this is that it streamlines the game, because there's already a phase where certain buildings pay out achievement tokens.  So, during that phase, you also check your player mat, and if an ability that you used matches one of the 3 on the achievement card, you get tokens.  It loses some of the variety of the cards, but I think it's a tolerable loss in complexity.

 

Finally, the caravan was unanimously felt to be too much complexity for the game.  I really like the mechanic, but I think it does feel like an expansion, for more advanced players.

So, those are the three changes I'll be making.  I noticed that modifying these three rules took two pages out of the 8 pages of rulebook text, so I think that's a very good thing. 

 Overall, PowWow was fun and I hope to be able to attend again next year.  In addition, we're considering trying to hold a "PowWow"-like event in the northeast this winter.  We'll keep you posted about that as things develop. 

-Jeff 

IngredientX
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

Great report, Jeff! You can go ahead and talk further about my games; I'm okay with it.

jwarrend wrote:
 The game of Gil's that I've played before is improving steadily, and I think had he entered it now in the Doomed Civ contest, it would have a good shot at doing well.  Darn those contest deadlines!  I liked some of the ideas in the other game he put on the table. 

The first game Jeff is talking about, Wag the Wolf, is awfully close to the blind test stage. I got fantastic feedback from it. The game had lots of awkward little rules (from me? Imagine that!) and I got some great suggestions on how to eliminate those rules without significantly altering the gameplay.

I was amazed by how many people felt that my other games were ready for publishers! It can be a confusing situation, especially when a game like Body Parts gets reactions ranging from "I think this game should be in print" to "fun vacuum." Hopefully, blind testing will tell me how much further I should pursue that game; I have too many other projects, design-related and not, to be spending time on games that aren't good enough to continue.

 I managed to get playtest sessions of Disciples and Sands of Time.  I'll mention the results of the sessions:

Quote:
DISCIPLES

Played w/Michael (49), Tom (30), Gil (31), and me (29). Michael dominated the game, achieving 15 points from his goal cards and 12 points from Gospel tokens. Gil drew the traitor card, and probably could have won early on - people were pretty indiscriminate about performing deeds that bumped up the Pharisees track - but later in the game, couldn't get the traction to win as Judas.

Yeah, last time, it seemed the Pharisees track improved every time I so much as breathed on it, so I thought it would be a cinch to wait and pounce. Of course, as Jeff mentioned, the Pharisees deeds shriveled up halfway through the game, so I never turned traitor.

The game is quite neat, and I'm looking forward to another playtest.

Quote:
I continue to be happy with the game, and I'm hoping to try out a "goals drafting" variant whereby you get, say, 3 goal cards and you choose 2 to keep. I think this will be more fun for experienced players, as one of the things I find enjoyable about the game is trying to make your goals work together. This will be enhanced, I think, when you have some control over your goals.

I agree with that, though I wonder how many times the Traitor card will be the card that gets ditched.

Quote:
I'll probably try again later this month to start submitting the game. We'll see how it goes!

Good luck, Jeff! This game is tricky to sell, not because it's a bad design (I think it's quite good), but because the publishing company has to be open to publishing a middleweight game with a Christian theme. Nevertheless, I'd hope you see some interest.

Quote:
SANDS OF TIME

I normally don't like Civilization-esque games, so it always surprises me how much I enjoy my half- and quarter-playings of this. I promise that the next time this hits the table, I will see it through to the end. The game plays much more quickly than it has any right to.

Quote:
Some changes are in the works. First, prior to playing, I removed the aspect of combat whereby the winner can choose to "loot" the territory. In practice, I just don't think this is important enough to the game to justify inclusion, and removing it makes combat simpler, and solely about expelling another player from a territory.

Good call. I didn't miss it.

Quote:
The achievement cards (which say, "If you did [this action], you get [achievement tokens of this type and amount]") feel incredibly fiddly - so much so that I even forgot to flip them several times! I'm envisioning a new scheme for this: there will be 1 achievement card each round, and it gives the 3 categories (political, civic, cultural), and next to each, a Prefect ability that, if you use it, you'll get a token in that category. So, for example, a card might have: "Political: Govern", and if you used the "Govern" ability, you'd get a political achievement token. The particularly nice thing about this is that it streamlines the game, because there's already a phase where certain buildings pay out achievement tokens. So, during that phase, you also check your player mat, and if an ability that you used matches one of the 3 on the achievement card, you get tokens. It loses some of the variety of the cards, but I think it's a tolerable loss in complexity.

I'm curious to see how this works. I wonder if unclaimed actions should be "bucked up" a la Puerto Rico, so an action that is unused can eventually earn more than one political token.

Quote:
Finally, the caravan was unanimously felt to be too much complexity for the game. I really like the mechanic, but I think it does feel like an expansion, for more advanced players.

I was very relieved that this wasn't included, and I didn't miss it. Perhaps after my first full game, I can see how it fits in.

Now I want to work on my games. Too bad I have to get ready for work...

phpbbadmin
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

IngredientX wrote:

Quote:
I continue to be happy with the game, and I'm hoping to try out a "goals drafting" variant whereby you get, say, 3 goal cards and you choose 2 to keep. I think this will be more fun for experienced players, as one of the things I find enjoyable about the game is trying to make your goals work together. This will be enhanced, I think, when you have some control over your goals.

I agree with that, though I wonder how many times the Traitor card will be the card that gets ditched.

I think it depends upon the personality of the person and their skill in playing the game. I.E. if you were relatively good at the game, and you had the notion to play the traitor, then you might really want to be the traitor. I think, if I had played it a couple more times, then I would definitely enjoy giving the traitor a try.

Quote:
Quote:
I'll probably try again later this month to start submitting the game. We'll see how it goes!

Good luck, Jeff! This game is tricky to sell, not because it's a bad design (I think it's quite good), but because the publishing company has to be open to publishing a middleweight game with a Christian theme. Nevertheless, I'd hope you see some interest.

Even though the game definitely wouldn't be considered light weight, I do think it's easy enough to be played with families, especially with some intuitive graphics design to make everything easier to understand (not that it's hard to understand as it is now). I really think this game could do well, especially targeted to the christian game segment, mainly because there are very few christian games that are even remotely playable, muchless fun like Disciples is. I can imagine with some nice flavor text and great graphics this game could do really well, especially catering to families with middle school aged children.

As for Body Parts, to reiterate what everyone else said; "Put it in a box and ship it!".

-Darke

sedjtroll
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

IngredientX wrote:
last time it seemed the Pharisees track improved every time I so much as breathed on it, so I thought it would be a cinch to wait and pounce. Of course, as Jeff mentioned, the Pharisees deeds shriveled up halfway through the game, so I never turned traitor.

Having played the game (perhaps not the latest and greatest) a number of times, I am of the opinion that this will happen just about every time.

If you are the traitor and you hope to win, you must betray (unlikely you'll win with the other goal), and you must do so EARLY, or you'll never outscore anyone. It's been my impression so far that at some point in the game there's a threshold after which the traitor won't be able to win through betrayal. In my opinion that point has come too early in all the games I've played. Also in my opinion, the alternate goal for the traitor is too harsh. I believe Jeff has said he'd like someone to be able to switch strategies if they see a betrayal won't win, and still have a shot at winning. As it is, if you go for a betrayal to begin with, then your score will be abysmal if you don't betray (and as mentioned, after a point it will be relatively abysmal if you do... where abysmal here means 'not higher than everyone else's).

Please don't take that as a negative comment... rather as constructive criticism. I like the game a lot, and I think it works rather well. I just think some numbers need tweaking.

- Seth

IngredientX
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

sedjtroll wrote:
Having played the game (perhaps not the latest and greatest) a number of times, I am of the opinion that this will happen just about every time.

If you are the traitor and you hope to win, you must betray (unlikely you'll win with the other goal), and you must do so EARLY, or you'll never outscore anyone. It's been my impression so far that at some point in the game there's a threshold after which the traitor won't be able to win through betrayal. In my opinion that point has come too early in all the games I've played.

In an early version of the game, Jeff kicked our tails by betraying late. But the new version may play a little differently.

sedjtroll wrote:
Also in my opinion, the alternate goal for the traitor is too harsh. I believe Jeff has said he'd like someone to be able to switch strategies if they see a betrayal won't win, and still have a shot at winning.

I agree, and I remember mentioning this to Jeff on the way back from Bodo's Bagels (yum yum). Alas, I don't remember what his take on the matter was, as my brain seems to be shrinking these days. :)

IngredientX
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

Darkehorse wrote:
As for Body Parts, to reiterate what everyone else said; "Put it in a box and ship it!".

It's funny; the game gets very different reactions. This weekend, I somehow got a playtest going with Alan Ernstein and Jay Tummelson (I wish I'd brought Wag the Wolf!!!), and I would describe that particular game session as a "fun vacuum." So it's definitely not for everyone.

I'm looking forward to more blind testing; I already got one blind test report back, and it was quite productive (i.e. they enjoyed the game, but couldn't really figure out the rules). I'm still not convinced that the game has the "snap" that it needs, but if most blind test groups can figure out the rules and find it fun, I won't complain.

phpbbadmin
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

IngredientX wrote:
Darkehorse wrote:
As for Body Parts, to reiterate what everyone else said; "Put it in a box and ship it!".

It's funny; the game gets very different reactions. This weekend, I somehow got a playtest going with Alan Ernstein and Jay Tummelson (I wish I'd brought Wag the Wolf!!!), and I would describe that particular game session as a "fun vacuum." So it's definitely not for everyone.

I'm looking forward to more blind testing; I already got one blind test report back, and it was quite productive (i.e. they enjoyed the game, but couldn't really figure out the rules). I'm still not convinced that the game has the "snap" that it needs, but if most blind test groups can figure out the rules and find it fun, I won't complain.

If you need help rewording the rules, I'd love to give you hand. Nothing against your abilities, but sometimes a person who is somewhat removed from the game can give a more objective explanation of how things flow.

Regarding the test with Jay and Alan; all I can say is that, just as with any game, the game isn't for everyone. Obviously Rio Grande produces a lot of deeper strategy games, and let's face it, Body Parts just doesn't qualify. In order to have fun with the game, you have to be willing to do stuff like says "Yes Master", "Give me the brain", and laugh maniacally. If a person can't lighten up enough to do that, they shouldn't be playing BP.

-Darke

Verseboy
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

IngredientX wrote:
[This weekend, I somehow got a playtest going with Alan Ernstein and Jay Tummelson (I wish I'd brought Wag the Wolf!!!), and I would describe that particular game session as a "fun vacuum." So it's definitely not for everyone.

Just curious, how did you land that gig?

Turning green with something approaching envy,

Steve

IngredientX
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

Verseboy wrote:
IngredientX wrote:
[This weekend, I somehow got a playtest going with Alan Ernstein and Jay Tummelson (I wish I'd brought Wag the Wolf!!!), and I would describe that particular game session as a "fun vacuum." So it's definitely not for everyone.

Just curious, how did you land that gig?

Turning green with something approaching envy,

Steve

I got lucky... both fellows were at Dexcon, a New Jersey con where I was running games. Then again, maybe I was unlucky because I didn't have a game that matched their taste.

They are both very friendly and approachable (except that Jay is a nonstop blur of action... you have to catch him in the 30 seconds that he doesn't have booked in the day :) ). I was pumping Alan Ernstein for information about how he creates his game, and he was incredibly sweet, forthcoming, and detailed about all the little things I've always wanted to know.

I think this is one big reason I like the boardgame business: here in the USA, it's not an "industry." At almost every game company unconnected with Hasbro, everyone's there for the games. It's not like film or TV where you have executives who are more concerned with making millions by putting out the same old recycled garbage. Heck, even Hasbro's taking a bit of a risk by using the Avalon Hill moniker to put out games targeted to people older than 8. So you don't get the huge egos that you get in the huge tentacles of the entertainment industry.

I get the feeling that if Rio Grande just existed in a self-sustaining mode, where each release pays for the next release and didn't really put food on the table, Jay would still be doing exactly the same thing. You can tell his love for games just by watching him kibbitz.

If you're at a big con (Gen Con or Origins), you should be able to just go right up to them and say hi. They love games and have no problems talking to game enthusiasts or aspiring designers.

IngredientX
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

Darkehorse wrote:

If you need help rewording the rules, I'd love to give you hand. Nothing against your abilities, but sometimes a person who is somewhat removed from the game can give a more objective explanation of how things flow.

Awesome, thanks for the offer! I'll try one or two more blind tests (because I'm incredibly, stupidly stubborn like that), but I might just take you up on it.

Quote:
Regarding the test with Jay and Alan; all I can say is that, just as with any game, the game isn't for everyone. Obviously Rio Grande produces a lot of deeper strategy games, and let's face it, Body Parts just doesn't qualify. In order to have fun with the game, you have to be willing to do stuff like says "Yes Master", "Give me the brain", and laugh maniacally. If a person can't lighten up enough to do that, they shouldn't be playing BP.

You're right. It took me a few hours to realize that, which included a conversation with one of my harshest critics, my wife. She told me that if I gave up on Body Parts, she would go onto my computer, get the PDFs, and print it herself. :)

jwarrend
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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

IngredientX wrote:

The first game Jeff is talking about, Wag the Wolf, is awfully close to the blind test stage. I got fantastic feedback from it. The game had lots of awkward little rules (from me? Imagine that!) and I got some great suggestions on how to eliminate those rules without significantly altering the gameplay.

I like how WtW is coming along. I'm not sure how much I like games of its ilk with high-stakes auctions. I recently played PowerGrid, and I just didn't care for the game; the whole economy felt like a prop compared to the relative overimportance of the auction. I'm afraid that WtW could have an element of that as well, where a player who can't win auctions can't really do well in the game. It was interesting that in this game, the early auctions were very costly as players fought tooth and nail for the less valuable media outlets, but in the endgame, the very lucrative media outlets were going for a song.

I do like the auction mechanic you've devised. I wonder if it would be more interesting to me if there was a display of 4 items and the auction was deciding the order in which players would choose (but folding still leaves you out cold). You could then tweak the media outlets, so that some pay out more VPs for successful "wagging", others have a better Media Point (aka "Mega Point") payout, etc. As it stands, the auctions are not that difficult: it's always best to win, if you can. This might be a way to make the order more interesting. But it's a big change, and I don't know if you're still at a point where you're open to big changes.

Quote:
It can be a confusing situation, especially when a game like Body Parts gets reactions ranging from "I think this game should be in print" to "fun vacuum."

Good news/bad news, I did think that Body Parts certainly had enough good core ideas that it could be publishable, although I still think it needs some further development. In the game, players bid sets from their hand to earn the right to acquire additional parts for their monsters. I was expecting the source of tension to be between bidding your cards vs holding the ones you want to be able to add to your monster, but I didn't really find that this came through. The "flaw" in the game, for me, was that the outcome of losing a bid, having to give up the cards you bid, is positively devastating, and condemns you to several turns of simply drawing cards. This is forgivable in a quick game, but I found that the effect it had was that people became pretty gun-shy about bidding, and frequently only 2 or 3 players would be involved in a bid each round. Of course, all bidding games are learning curve games so it's possible we were bidding too high and trying to put together unnecessarily big runs.

Bad news, there's a new game by M. Schacht coming out called Frankenstein, which looks to have some similar elements. It's probably not very similar in gameplay but you wonder how many light card games about building monsters the market can accomodate. I think it's worth continuing to refine Body Parts, but it may end up being a tough sell to publishers, depending on how well Frankenstein does.

Quote:

I agree with that, though I wonder how many times the Traitor card will be the card that gets ditched.

Easy enough to fix with a rule that says "you can't discard the traitor card". Fiddly, but it's a variant anyway...

Quote:
I normally don't like Civilization-esque games, so it always surprises me how much I enjoy my half- and quarter-playings of this. I promise that the next time this hits the table, I will see it through to the end. The game plays much more quickly than it has any right to.

Thanks, I'm glad it appeals to you.

Quote:

Good call. I didn't miss [the rule permitting looting]

Yeah, it was in there primarily to allow flexibility in play style, you could have your Civ be a bunch of "raiders" eg, I guess, the vikings. But I don't think it's worth the complexity.

Quote:

I'm curious to see how this works. I wonder if unclaimed actions should be "bucked up" a la Puerto Rico, so an action that is unused can eventually earn more than one political token.

I agree, there should be ways to get more than one token from the cards, but not sure yet how to achieve that.

Quote:

I was very relieved that this wasn't included, and I didn't miss it. Perhaps after my first full game, I can see how it fits in.

I think it could add a lot to the game, but I think it would be easier to sell as an addition to players who already are experienced and really like the core game system. I think it's harder to justify the up-front investment in complexity for people who aren't even sure they want to play the game or not...

sedjtroll wrote:
If you are the traitor and you hope to win, you must betray (unlikely you'll win with the other goal), and you must do so EARLY, or you'll never outscore anyone. It's been my impression so far that at some point in the game there's a threshold after which the traitor won't be able to win through betrayal. In my opinion that point has come too early in all the games I've played. Also in my opinion, the alternate goal for the traitor is too harsh. I believe Jeff has said he'd like someone to be able to switch strategies if they see a betrayal won't win, and still have a shot at winning. As it is, if you go for a betrayal to begin with, then your score will be abysmal if you don't betray (and as mentioned, after a point it will be relatively abysmal if you do... where abysmal here means 'not higher than everyone else's).

I think part of the difficulty is that there are a lot of random factors that fluctuate from game to game, and even mid-game. In this playing, Gil had a slam-dunk traitor win for about the first third of the game, which often happens in games with newer players, who are a bit indiscriminate early on about performing deeds that bump the pharisees. But mid-game, there were at least two occurences that moved the pharisees back. I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to balance the game if I just removed the effects that move the Pharisees back altogether.

As for the traitor's non-betrayal goal, it's quite possible that it's too harsh, and I'm certainly open to exploring alternatives. Originally, it was "1 VP for each deed you performed that doesn't increase the Jews or Pharisees", which, I think, is a little too strong relative to the other goals.

It's certainly possible some further balancing is needed. I do think it's possible that the traitor's relative VP "arc" peaks a little earlier in the game than other players (bad) and then plateaus (also bad), and it's the first that worries me more -- that too many games will end in the first 2 or 3 turns.

In my solo tests, I have found that in general, the traitor's position is relatively competitive, and can win some of the time but it is, as Seth says, something you have to work for. But that's sort of as it should be -- the game shouldn't simply coronate you as the winner.

Still, it needs further study and I obviously welcome comments and suggestions!

Thanks for your comments,

-Jeff

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Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

jwarrend wrote:
I like how WtW is coming along. I'm not sure how much I like games of its ilk with high-stakes auctions. I recently played PowerGrid, and I just didn't care for the game; the whole economy felt like a prop compared to the relative overimportance of the auction. I'm afraid that WtW could have an element of that as well, where a player who can't win auctions can't really do well in the game. It was interesting that in this game, the early auctions were very costly as players fought tooth and nail for the less valuable media outlets, but in the endgame, the very lucrative media outlets were going for a song.

It's interesting comparing your playtest to the playtest I had the next day. The players were much more cautious with their money, and were loaded with both finances and information when the Subliminals came out. So it seems that experience is a factor.

Also, I adore Power Grid. I like the way the auction fits into the game. But then again, I like auction games; I never seem to get tired of them. I know they're not for everyone, which is why, when someone asks who I'm designing Wag the Wolf for, I answer, "me." :) I don't expect it to be sellable; I just want a game I can enjoy.

Quote:
I do like the auction mechanic you've devised. I wonder if it would be more interesting to me if there was a display of 4 items and the auction was deciding the order in which players would choose (but folding still leaves you out cold).

I had that mechanic at about this time last year. I had all sorts of things of things up for auction... Media Points (not Mega Points! I'll sic my ferret on you! Grrrr! :p), a random amount of cash, and the Media Outlets. I also had a VP bonus for the most of a certain kind of Outlet.

A lot has changed since then, but the fact that the Outlets can be ranked in order of quality really calls for a fixed payout, which means there's no reason for a player to give the best outlet to anyone but himself. It's also made the game much simpler, which is always essential for me, the Rules Magnet. As you say, perhaps that could work, but it would have to be a different game at this point.

Quote:
Good news/bad news, I did think that Body Parts certainly had enough good core ideas that it could be publishable, although I still think it needs some further development. In the game, players bid sets from their hand to earn the right to acquire additional parts for their monsters. I was expecting the source of tension to be between bidding your cards vs holding the ones you want to be able to add to your monster, but I didn't really find that this came through. The "flaw" in the game, for me, was that the outcome of losing a bid, having to give up the cards you bid, is positively devastating, and condemns you to several turns of simply drawing cards. This is forgivable in a quick game, but I found that the effect it had was that people became pretty gun-shy about bidding, and frequently only 2 or 3 players would be involved in a bid each round. Of course, all bidding games are learning curve games so it's possible we were bidding too high and trying to put together unnecessarily big runs.

I agree with you. I really don't know what to do with this game. I know that several people like it the way it is, but it's really missing something for me.

Quote:
Bad news, there's a new game by M. Schacht coming out called Frankenstein, which looks to have some similar elements. It's probably not very similar in gameplay but you wonder how many light card games about building monsters the market can accomodate. I think it's worth continuing to refine Body Parts, but it may end up being a tough sell to publishers, depending on how well Frankenstein does.

Wow, thanks for the news! To me, publishing isn't really the end goal; I'd rather just design, and if I come up with games that people hound me to bring along to their gaming groups/conventions, then I'll think about publishing. Anyway, the game can always be rethemed (though I'd lose my friend Ben's awesome artwork), but that's the least of my worries.

Quote:
As for the traitor's non-betrayal goal, it's quite possible that it's too harsh, and I'm certainly open to exploring alternatives. Originally, it was "1 VP for each deed you performed that doesn't increase the Jews or Pharisees", which, I think, is a little too strong relative to the other goals.

It's certainly possible some further balancing is needed. I do think it's possible that the traitor's relative VP "arc" peaks a little earlier in the game than other players (bad) and then plateaus (also bad), and it's the first that worries me more -- that too many games will end in the first 2 or 3 turns.

I think you're on the right track with both points. I know that because I lost my betrayal opportunity, I had no chance to even compete with my non-betrayal goal. Then again, the better a position the traitor is in to betray, the more he should be punished if he doesn't betray (unless you'd like both strategies to be viable, considering the theme of the game). Finally, I'd imagine you'd want the average gamer to get the feel for the strategy in, at most, two games.

Thanks for the feedback... I'm looking forward to the next Playfest!

jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

IngredientX wrote:

It's interesting comparing your playtest to the playtest I had the next day. The players were much more cautious with their money, and were loaded with both finances and information when the Subliminals came out. So it seems that experience is a factor.

I think part of the reason we fought so hard for the media outlets in our game is that there's really not much you can do in the game without them. You're just sitting there watching the other players do stuff. That can be forgivable, in a sense, if staying out of overheated auctions led to a higher probability of game-winningness.

I played a game of Modern Art a few weeks back in which I and 4 other players were rookies and 1 player was experienced. In that game, the experienced player won no auctions, but he won by $100,000. The reason: everyone else was overpaying in auctions. I'm concerned that in WtW, there's no severe disincentive to overpaying. For example, Michael went several rounds without winning a Media Outlet, yet he wasn't able to run away with the game despite avoiding the overheated auctions.

What appeared to me to be the rationale for the high bidding early was, I can either bid 11 (say) and get 3rd place and get a low value media outlet, or I can bid 13 and go up into first and get a better media outlet. There's a fairly steep fall off in quality between the person who wins the bid and 2nd and 3rd place, and it's clustered in a difference of only $2 between the high and 3rd place bid. That, I think, will tend to drive up the bids as people jockey for 1st place rather than be stuck with a less valuable item.

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Also, I adore Power Grid. I like the way the auction fits into the game. But then again, I like auction games; I never seem to get tired of them. I know they're not for everyone, which is why, when someone asks who I'm designing Wag the Wolf for, I answer, "me." :) I don't expect it to be sellable; I just want a game I can enjoy.

That's perfectly sensible, and I'm not saying you should remove the auction aspect at all, I'm just questioning whether it plays an appropriate role in the game or could be modified fruitfully.

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I had that mechanic at about this time last year. I had all sorts of things of things up for auction... Media Points (not Mega Points! I'll sic my ferret on you! Grrrr! :p), a random amount of cash, and the Media Outlets. I also had a VP bonus for the most of a certain kind of Outlet.

A lot has changed since then, but the fact that the Outlets can be ranked in order of quality really calls for a fixed payout, which means there's no reason for a player to give the best outlet to anyone but himself.

That's just my point, though, in the version of the game I'm advocating, the media outlets would be restructured so that they can't be "ranked" anymore; some would be more useful for turning money into MPs, some would be more useful for crying wolf. (To use an analogy, a tabloid may be a great way to generate cash but is not useful for disseminating genuinely important info; in contrast, TV news is great for spreading actual information).

As I said, it would change the game quite a bit but I think it would make the auctions much more interesting (to me).

Although, I confess that there's an aspect of the auction that I haven't completely figured out how to harness yet, that revolves around "if I bid X, I'll have to pay a card that will give some info away to the other players". I feel like this should be a factor that affects decision making but I haven't figured out how to take it into account yet in the times that I've played.

-Jeff

DavemanUK
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

jwarrend wrote:

It's certainly possible some further balancing is needed. I do think it's possible that the traitor's relative VP "arc" peaks a little earlier in the game than other players (bad) and then plateaus (also bad), and it's the first that worries me more -- that too many games will end in the first 2 or 3 turns.

Still, it needs further study and I obviously welcome comments and suggestions!

-Jeff

Having not played Disciples it's hard for me to gauge the emotional aspect of players hoping that the traitor doesn't strike during a game. However, my impressions are that I'd prefer the tension to be mounting _up_ during a game as the odds for a potential betrayal _increases_. Each non-traitor player should have increasingly potent agonising decision of "I must do such and such an action for +vps but that will increase the % for a potential betrayal". Plus, even when a betrayal does occur it's not in the first 2-3 turns but more likely in the last 1-3 turns :)

I don't know how easy it is for a traitor to calculate if a betrayal will win him the game but I think something similar to E&T's rule of "play extra tiles from hand to boost combat strength" will keep the traitor watching what cards the other players play to choose the best moment to strike (I'm sure we all watch other E&T players play out their temple tiles and hope to catch them with none in hand when we choose to attack via internal conflicts).

Dave.
(sorry if you've already ruled out all the above years ago :) )

IngredientX
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Joined: 07/26/2008
Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

Quote:
I think part of the reason we fought so hard for the media outlets in our game is that there's really not much you can do in the game without them. You're just sitting there watching the other players do stuff. That can be forgivable, in a sense, if staying out of overheated auctions led to a higher probability of game-winningness.

I played a game of Modern Art a few weeks back in which I and 4 other players were rookies and 1 player was experienced. In that game, the experienced player won no auctions, but he won by $100,000. The reason: everyone else was overpaying in auctions. I'm concerned that in WtW, there's no severe disincentive to overpaying. For example, Michael went several rounds without winning a Media Outlet, yet he wasn't able to run away with the game despite avoiding the overheated auctions.

That's a fair concern. However, Modern Art is a slightly different case, as it has a zero-sum auction system. The strategy of not winning any auctions and finishing as the richest player is built into the game. In WtW, I want the Media Outlets to be powerful, but money and information to be relatively limited. If you don't cry wolf, you don't get information, and you may not score enough in the end of the game. Hopefully I can tweak the game to a state where a player who cries wolf too early and too often will be caught without any Media Outlets to use when he needs precious MP at the end of the game.

A good example of what I'm shooting for is St. Petersburg. It's very difficult to win against experienced players when pursuing an all-noble or all-building strategy; the winning player is usually balanced, but tilted towards one side or the other. I guess you could say the same thing about Puerto Rico, though the day I announce that I've designed the next Puerto Rico is the day my ego bloats to a mass large enough to collapse into a black hole. :P

By the way, driving back from Charlottesville, I'd realized that in my two playtest sessions of WtW, I'd completely forgotten to start every player off with a tabloid! That would have reduced Mike's empty turns.

I'm still noting your advice though, and I'm going to look for the Big Spenders in playtests. If they always end up winning the game, I think I'll tweak the between-rounds payouts. I know that early forms of the game had a terrible runaway leader problem because one player could keep financing future auctions by crying wolf over and over again, but in the current version of the game, it's a little trickier to do.

Quote:
That's just my point, though, in the version of the game I'm advocating, the media outlets would be restructured so that they can't be "ranked" anymore; some would be more useful for turning money into MPs, some would be more useful for crying wolf. (To use an analogy, a tabloid may be a great way to generate cash but is not useful for disseminating genuinely important info; in contrast, TV news is great for spreading actual information).

As I said, it would change the game quite a bit but I think it would make the auctions much more interesting (to me).

Fair enough. After I get WtW into its more-or-less final shape (whether it becomes a game that's "ready" or goes into the bin), I might recycle the auction mechanic into another game, but use a system that you described (which I was considering before you suggested it... honest!). I'm really happy with the "musical chairs" auction, where one player is left out.

In WtW, I'm hoping the tension comes from what you described in your post, the decision of whether to spend money for first place (and risk spending lots of cash/information for a relatively small return), or fold early and save your valuable cash/information. I hope that the tension will equate to fun, but only time will tell...

jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Re: Jeff's PowWow recap

DavemanUK wrote:
jwarrend wrote:

It's certainly possible some further balancing is needed. I do think it's possible that the traitor's relative VP "arc" peaks a little earlier in the game than other players (bad) and then plateaus (also bad), and it's the first that worries me more -- that too many games will end in the first 2 or 3 turns.

Having not played Disciples it's hard for me to gauge the emotional aspect of players hoping that the traitor doesn't strike during a game. However, my impressions are that I'd prefer the tension to be mounting _up_ during a game as the odds for a potential betrayal _increases_. Each non-traitor player should have increasingly potent agonising decision of "I must do such and such an action for +vps but that will increase the % for a potential betrayal". Plus, even when a betrayal does occur it's not in the first 2-3 turns but more likely in the last 1-3 turns :)

I completely agree, this is exactly how it should work. The issue at hand, I think, is more that I don't think we've conclusively established yet exactly what the "typical" "traitor victory arc" looks like. But if it turns out that it peaks too early, it will be easy to fix simply by tweaking the values on the Pharisees track, which controls the traitor's VP payout.

At the same time, I do want players to have to pay a little bit of attention to the pharisees track during the game, so the theoretical possibility of an early traitor win should be present as well, if only to keep players from allowing this to materialize too often. (ie, if you can ignore the pharisees track for the first 3/4 of the game ,then does it serve any actual purpose in the game?)

Quote:
I don't know how easy it is for a traitor to calculate if a betrayal will win him the game but I think something similar to E&T's rule of "play extra tiles from hand to boost combat strength" will keep the traitor watching what cards the other players play to choose the best moment to strike (I'm sure we all watch other E&T players play out their temple tiles and hope to catch them with none in hand when we choose to attack via internal conflicts).

Everyone knows at all times how many points the traitor will get for betraying, but because each player has two secret goal cards, no one knows exactly how many points the others have. Thus, the traitor's decision to betray is always somewhat murky. I remember one game we played where SiskNY went for betrayal mid-game thinking he probably had the game won, and he was right -- but the margin, after the other players' goals were revealed, was only one or two points, much closer than he had thought it would have been.

Thanks for your comments!
-Jeff

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