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Sands of Time playtest report

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jwarrend
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This is a playtest report for my Game Design Workshop game, The Sands of Time. The latest rulebook is here

We had a smaller turnout than in the past at our Albany “Playfest” yesterday, but it gave us more time to explore the various games. As I had hoped, I was able to put “Sands” on the table, and so after a rules explanation over pizza, we plunged into a 4 player game.

Unfortunately, due to time constraints (ie, the game is looong), we only got through 4 turns, and when the historian emerged in that turn, none of us had actually recorded any chronicles, so there was no scoring to report here. We all clustered around the med, leaving Asia wide open for expansion, and I think it was likely that myself and/or Tom were well-positioned to capitalize on that had the game lasted longer. Each of us built a city, but none had, at the game end, any markets. Gil moved into Mike’s Sicilia with an intent of building a market, but Mike chose to militarily expel Gil from the territory so as to pick up a couple of political achievement tokens that one of the Achievement Cards awarded.

Overall, it’s actually hard to say much about the session in a narrative chronicling who did what. We all took the kinds of actions that the game allows -- building, producing, expanding, etc, but it was just too early in the game for us to have differentiated ourselves from one another very much. For myself, a couple of the tough decisions I faced and found satisfying:

-- At one point, I needed to add another territory to make room for more citizens, but doing so would increase my costs for reducing Unrest, and as I was gold-poor, this was a tough choice.

-- In order to gain an advance I needed in the present turn, I needed to convert a territory to a city, but as I already had one city, a 2nd city was going to cut my production long term.

Basically, the point I’m at design-wise is deciding whether to implement the revised action selection mechanic I discussed the other day. The gist of it is that the city/market/diamond rules would be removed, and actions would be selected by paying an Achievement token in the category of the action you wish to take (eg, Build would be a “Civic” action), with the caveat that to reuse a Prefect in a given game turn, you must pay an additional token for each time that you’ve already used that Prefect this turn. The other big change would be that buildings produce achievement tokens every turn, rather than at the time of building only.

I think this will make the game more strategic, since the buildings you build will guide the kinds of actions you’ll be taking. And, I think there will be an enhanced incentive for militarism, since acquiring territories with production abilities can be very useful.

The one thing that the game will lose is the cooperative nature of the cities/markets mechanic. I think that I’ll reword cities to be such that a Territory with as many buildings as its capacity is a city, and it pays out VPs according to some schedule (maybe capacity of the territory). Perhaps, in addition, you, and other players in the city, will get VPs each historian phase; it would make city-building a primary VP mechanism, which I suppose is appropriate thematically.

Overall, I felt that the session went well; the game was fun to play, and the other players seemed to pick it up pretty quickly. So, in that sense, it was a success! This game, due to its length, is tough to test, but I hope to get it onto the table again soon to try out the alternative action selection mechanic.

-Jeff

sedjtroll
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Sands of Time playtest report

A couple questions about your playtest...

How long did your 4-turn game take (hours?)? How much longer would it have taken to finish the game?

Regarding your proposed change to the action mechanic- does it make sense thematically for actions to cost more if you choose the same prefect? In other words, is it too much of an abstraction to pay more to use the same action again? I realize that mechanically it makes a lot of sense, but it's also somewhat arbitrary. I think it might be worth considering some justification for the action cost mechanic, like a person can only do so much at a time (a good justification of using budgeted action points in general). It makes more sense (thematically) to say "you can only use the military once per turn, because then they're busy doing that action and can't do another" than to say "you can use the military twice, but it costs you more the second time."

Then again, you could say that your turn represents a length of time, and if ou devote more of that time into using you military then they CAN do more than 1 action... and the cost is appropriate. Mechanically it certainly sounds interesting.

Fianlly, the main point is that it might not even matter- the 'problem' with the game seems to be that it takes too long. Is there anythingyou can do with the action payment mechanic to shorten the gae length?

- Seth

jwarrend
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Sands of Time playtest report

Quote:

How long did your 4-turn game take (hours?)? How much longer would it have taken to finish the game?

I think it lasted in the vicinity of 90 minutes. We probably had a good 2 hours or more to go to finish. I think that inexperience was a factor, but surprisingly, there were quite a few times when people were surprised by how quickly their turn came up again, and weren’t prepared to act. So I think the game can be played quickly, but it will take a committment to heads-up, aggressive play on the part of the players. Casual play will make the game longer.

Another observation I’ll make is that in this session, I never intended for us to play more than to the first scoring round. When 4 designers get together, it would have been most unfair of me to hog all the time with a long game like this, so we were going to stop at that point regardless of the time investment it took...

Quote:

Regarding your proposed change to the action mechanic- does it make sense thematically for actions to cost more if you choose the same prefect? In other words, is it too much of an abstraction to pay more to use the same action again?

It’s not as thematic as the current rule; obviously, if my citizens are producing, it makes sense that they can’t turn around and build. But my concern is that the current rules, while thematically good, are mechanically too restrictive; you just don’t have enough actions to get up and running quickly enough. That, and that buildings currently are too transient a commodity. This rule change solves both of those problems at once, though you’re quite right that it’s thematically flimsy. There may be a hybrid of the two systems that would be possible.

The alternative would be to do away with the cost increasing mechanic, but what you’d have then is basically 9 different prefects. One of the things I am very pleased with about the prefect system is the “this or that” nature of decision making. The “increasing cost” changes that a bit, but still keeps some of the flavor.

Quote:

Fianlly, the main point is that it might not even matter- the 'problem' with the game seems to be that it takes too long. Is there anythingyou can do with the action payment mechanic to shorten the gae length?

The action payment mechanic is really meant more to solve the “tightness” problem than the game length problem. To be honest, I’m not yet convinced there is a game length problem. I think that 5 experienced players could easily set up and play a game in 3 hours. Obviously, playtests need to prove this out, but I hope Gil, Tom, or Mike could corroborate the observation that the turns themselves are short and punchy. If people are committed to playing quickly, the game can be played in a short time (relatively speaking, of course...).

I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to make it shorter without hacking stuff out, and it’s already been pretty whittled down at this point. I think now it’s in the players’ hands as to how fast it can be played. I do think that it’s going to be a substantive 3 hours, with almost zero downtime, so it hopefully justifies its length, but people who don’t like 3 hour games may not really like the game. Although, the typical "German games fan" probably isn't the target audience for this one so much as fans of big-scope 8 hour games who only have 3 hours available...

-Jeff

sedjtroll
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Sands of Time playtest report

jwarrend wrote:
I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to make it shorter without hacking stuff out, and it’s already been pretty whittled down at this point. I think now it’s in the players’ hands as to how fast it can be played. I do think that it’s going to be a substantive 3 hours, with almost zero downtime, so it hopefully justifies its length, but people who don’t like 3 hour games may not really like the game. Although, the typical "German games fan" probably isn't the target audience for this one so much as fans of big-scope 8 hour games who only have 3 hours available

Ah, welll then perhaps you are right on track. I wouldn't count on players being 'dedicated to playing quickly'... there's nothing worse than being one of those players and playing with someone who isn't, especially in a long game.

- Seth

jwarrend
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Sands of Time playtest report

sedjtroll wrote:

Ah, welll then perhaps you are right on track. I wouldn't count on players being 'dedicated to playing quickly'... there's nothing worse than being one of those players and playing with someone who isn't, especially in a long game.

Sure, sure. I guess my point is just that, I've been in a game of PR that lasted 3 hours (seriously), and games that have lasted 50 minutes. So sometimes, how long a game takes is independent of the game. Sands is a game that has enough length that I suspect it can run away from you if people aren't trying to move it along. In particular, the early turns, where not much is happening, have to go quickly so as to counterbalance the later turns, where more is happening. I think it will be a game that can be played quickly, but won't always be. We shall see!

-J

Anonymous
Sands of Time playtest report

jwarrend wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:

Ah, welll then perhaps you are right on track. I wouldn't count on players being 'dedicated to playing quickly'... there's nothing worse than being one of those players and playing with someone who isn't, especially in a long game.

Sure, sure. I guess my point is just that, I've been in a game of PR that lasted 3 hours (seriously), and games that have lasted 50 minutes. So sometimes, how long a game takes is independent of the game. Sands is a game that has enough length that I suspect it can run away from you if people aren't trying to move it along. In particular, the early turns, where not much is happening, have to go quickly so as to counterbalance the later turns, where more is happening. I think it will be a game that can be played quickly, but won't always be. We shall see!

-J

Of course I haven't played the game, so my suggestion is comepletely unfounded, but is it possible to start the game at the later turns where there is more going on? That would possibly have the effect of reducing the play time, and would certainly have the effect of making the game seem faster.

sedjtroll
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DrMayhem wrote:
is it possible to start the game at the later turns where there is more going on? That would possibly have the effect of reducing the play time, and would certainly have the effect of making the game seem faster.

I was going to say the same thing but, um... didn't.

- Seth

jwarrend
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Sands of Time playtest report

DrMayhem wrote:

Of course I haven't played the game, so my suggestion is comepletely unfounded, but is it possible to start the game at the later turns where there is more going on? That would possibly have the effect of reducing the play time, and would certainly have the effect of making the game seem faster.

Yes and no. Yes, it's certainly possible to do what you suggest, and yes, it would have the effect of making the game shorter and more interesting. However, for some players, myself included, the ramp up is part of what makes the game interesting, because you can shape your empire's destiny, wheres a pre-determined setup would probably lock you into one particular strategy, which you'd then try to follow. (kind of like Mare Nostrum, for example). I'd like to provide with the game's rules a "fair setup" that has some of these "programmed" strategies built in, but it's hard to test unless the underlying mechanics of the game are balanced, so I'm starting with the full-game setup for now.

-J

sedjtroll
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Sands of Time playtest report

jwarrend wrote:
it's certainly possible to do what you suggest, and yes, it would have the effect of making the game shorter and more interesting. However, for some players, myself included, the ramp up is part of what makes the game interesting, because you can shape your empire's destiny, wheres a pre-determined setup would probably lock you into one particular strategy, which you'd then try to follow.

Hmm... suppose you had your choice of a couple different setups... Like in Betrayal at house on the Hill you get a character card which has 2 sides, and you choose which of the two to use and that's your character for the game. Similarly, there could be predetermined setups (it might be tough to balance)- various single player starting positions- which are on cards or whatever. Then you deal out maybe 3 to each player. Each player chooses their starting position from that, without knowing their opponent;s starting position.

Since your game includes people co-existing in a region, these starting positions could overlap.

So they'd be like "X citizens in THIS region, and Y citizens in THAT region, and a city in THAT region (there'd only be 1 city for each region, and if you own it then you control the region).

So the starting positions could be a couple turns into the game down a certain strategic path, and you get your choice of (say) three strategic paths at the beginning of the game to eliminate the 'I'm forced to play this strategy' problem.

What do you think?

jwarrend
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Sands of Time playtest report

That is indeed a cool idea! Again, it's a few steps further down the development road than where I'm at right now (trying to balance the game itself), but I'll speculate a bit.

The way I think it might have to work is that the card would give you a bundled set of advances, units, and/or buildings, but the territories you start with would still be selected via the current method. So, you'd choose your territories, then you'd pick which strategy card you wanted, based presumably on the strengths of your territories at advancing the strategy you'll pick (but probably you have the strategy cards prior to selecting territories).

For example, if you want to choose a warlike strategy card, you'll want lots of access to crops, and a good central location, whereas if you have an advance-like strategy, you'll want more gold, and isolation.

I think that a strategy card approach that also gave territories would be tough to balance because there'd be a good chance it would drop players on the same territories. Whereas, I think that a deck of 12-18 "empire dispositions" that you could choose from as a ramp up and strategic guide could be very cool!

Great idea, thanks!

-Jeff

sedjtroll
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Sands of Time playtest report

jwarrend wrote:
The way I think it might have to work is that the card would give you a bundled set of advances, units, and/or buildings, but the territories you start with would still be selected via the current method. So, you'd choose your territories, then you'd pick which strategy card you wanted, based presumably on the strengths of your territories at advancing the strategy you'll pick (but probably you have the strategy cards prior to selecting territories).

For example, if you want to choose a warlike strategy card, you'll want lots of access to crops, and a good central location, whereas if you have an advance-like strategy, you'll want more gold, and isolation.
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about! I think it would work well. I think it could kick-start your game into the interesting part without having to spend an hour plus building up to it.

It's things like this that might allow your design goal of a civ game playable in under 2 hours to happen.

Anonymous
Sands of Time playtest report

Another thing to think about of course, is to include the rules for playing from the normal start position for people who want the ramp up sort of thing. I see the desires for having the game go either way, so why not include rules for both.

Of course, this is involving me still speculating on something with which I don't really know about.

Nando
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Sands of Time playtest report

Possible thematic wallpaper for the double-play prefects: They are leaders, coordinators, men of influence...paying an achievment token will "upgrade" the prefect so he can achieve more. He becomes a GLORIOUS leader, an EXACTING coordinator, an IRRESISTIBLE politician.

It's not that you're using your peasants twice...your prefect is more efficient.

jwarrend
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Sands of Time playtest report

Nando wrote:
Possible thematic wallpaper for the double-play prefects: They are leaders, coordinators, men of influence...paying an achievment token will "upgrade" the prefect so he can achieve more. He becomes a GLORIOUS leader, an EXACTING coordinator, an IRRESISTIBLE politician.

That's nice, thanks! There should be a forum here with threads like "I have this wacky mechanic that I can't justify thematically; can someone help?" Folks around here are quite creative about coming up with stuff like this.

Another avenue your idea suggests to me springboards off of an idea I had a while ago associated with making an adjective-based effect system (kind of with an rpg-like game in mind). So, a card might say "If you are STRONG you can move the boulder out of the way, otherwise, you can't". This kind of moves beyond the somewhat mathy rpg-like stuff like"If your strength > 10..." kind of stuff.

Perhaps there's a context for similar ideas in this game; maybe you have a Prefect who's POPULAR or HARSH or some such, and these have various impacts on the game. For example, maybe a HARSH prefect increases production but increases unrest. Thanks, this really gets me thinking!

For anyone who's keeping score, I'm pretty sure that the system I'm going to playtest next will work like this: You can still only use 3 Prefects per turn, and you can still only use one ability per Prefect. But, to upgrade a Prefect's ability, you must use Achievement tokens in a specific type: Political (for War/Annex/Govern), Civic (for Build or Produce), Culture (for Advance or Scribe), or any type (to Populate or Migrate). This removes the Diamond/Market/City systems. . Instead, a "city" is now simply a Territory that has as many buildings as its capacity, and is worth some VPs.

Thanks for chiming in!

-Jeff

sedjtroll
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Sands of Time playtest report

jwarrend wrote:
an idea I had a while ago associated with making an adjective-based effect system (kind of with an rpg-like game in mind). So, a card might say "If you are STRONG you can move the boulder out of the way, otherwise, you can't". This kind of moves beyond the somewhat mathy rpg-like stuff like"If your strength > 10..." kind of stuff.

Check out My Dwarves Fly for a similar thing. It's sort of like what you're saying, you play something like a global enchantment that says "My Gnomes are strong" which means they roll an extra die in combat. Or My Elves are Greedy" which allows your elves to find gold on a 1 or a 2 instead of just a 1. That kind of thing. You can only have 1 modifier per race, and some of them are bad(you play those on opponents).

Unfortunately BGG hasn't got a review of it.

- Seth

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Aug 27 2005 playtest recap

Our Aug 27 Albany playtest session was our best-attended yet, and we managed to get a game of Sands of Time on the table and (drum roll....) play it to completion! Yes! Well, to completion in an “abreviated” game of 8 turns (rather than the full 10-12). Involved in the game were myself, SiskNY, Emphyrio, and IngredientX’s wife. The game lasted about 2.5 hours of play time, plus probably about 30 minutes of setup and rules explanation. A few observations about the session:

-- The game was relatively peaceful, with only a few skirmishes. In the 4 player game, there’s a fair bit of open real estate, so you don’t really need to fight to land-grab, and there isn’t much other reason to fight. Based on that, I think there must be a way to combine “War” and “Annex” into just one action, but I’m still thinking about it. As the game went on, some conquest did occur, and it was clear that this was going to increase had the game lasted longer.

-- Both money and achievement tokens seemed to flow rather easily. The former was primarily due to the “looseness” built into the 4 player game. The latter was due, I believe, to the relative ease of building structures. The current rules is that structures cost your unrest less the number of peasants in the territory. Since we were able to keep our unrest pretty low, it was often possible to build a structure for pretty low cost in all of your territories. This led to a lot of structures, and by about turn 3, everyone had one structure in each of the 3 categories, so everyone was producing at least one achievement token per category per turn.

Now, this may not be a bad thing at all, but I think it may have resulted in a bit more homogenization than I perhaps intended. One thing to try might be to simply force you to pay full cost for your structures rather than getting a “peasant discount”. This simplifies the rules as well.

-- Not very many chronicles were recored. My final score was 30 points, and of that total, only about half came from Chronicles. It takes a turn action to get a chronicle card into your hand, and then you must have enough achievement tokens to actually record it. Then, after the historian scores out the cards, the chronicles evaporate. Something in this chain is too difficult, and I think the most likely culprits are the loss of chronicle cards after scoring and the difficulty of drawing cards in the first place. I’ll have to look at that a bit.

On the other hand, prior to the second historian, I drew several Chronicle cards but was only able to record one because I wasn’t able to get enough Achievement tokens into my hand of the correct type -- any time I wanted to do something that would have gained me achievement tokens in that category, there were other more pressing priorities. This was satisfying from a design perspective, an “agonizing choice”.

Overall, the session was encouraging. People seemed to pick up the mechanics quickly, but cobbling together a strategy was something I think they were only just glimpsing mid to late game. I think that were we to play again, it would be much clearer to them what they were supposed to be doing.

My concern is that the game needs a fair bit of tweaking, probably at least another 10 playings or so, and I’m not sure how realistic that’s going to be; particularly, getting the game tested multiple times by experienced players, which will be crucial to evaluating the strategies and balance. At a minimum, it’s going to take a while to finish the game. But, hopefully it will be worth it in the end!

-Jeff

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Re: Aug 27 2005 playtest recap

jwarrend wrote:
Our Aug 27 Albany playtest session was our best-attended yet, and we managed to get a game of Sands of Time on the table and (drum roll....) play it to completion!

Good to see it's hitting the table! I have played All For One approximately once in the last um, really long time.

Sounds like you had a good session!

Quote:
-- The game was relatively peaceful, with only a few skirmishes. In the 4 player game, there’s a fair bit of open real estate, so you don’t really need to fight to land-grab, and there isn’t much other reason to fight. Based on that, I think there must be a way to combine “War” and “Annex” into just one action

This sounds very reasonable to me. I don't recall what the rules are for Annexing and for War, but "combine them into one action" sounds like something I'd be likely to say there ;)

Quote:
-- Both money and achievement tokens seemed to flow rather easily. The former was primarily due to the “looseness” built into the 4 player game. The latter was due, I believe, to the relative ease of building structures. The current rules is that structures cost your unrest less the number of peasants in the territory. Since we were able to keep our unrest pretty low, it was often possible to build a structure for pretty low cost in all of your territories. This led to a lot of structures, and by about turn 3, everyone had one structure in each of the 3 categories, so everyone was producing at least one achievement token per category per turn.

I agree with your assessment that this makes players' civs 'too homogoneous'. The game will be more interesting if the civs are as different as possible, because actions available are the same for every player. So the civ's strengths and weaknesses are what sets the players apart and sets their priorities. I've found that my ideas get boring when all the players want the same thing at the same time (see also my Caravans of Ahldarahd review on BGG for more on how that makes a game feel crappy despite all the good ideas in it).

Off the top of my head... suppose getting 1 type of Acheivement token actually made the other types HARDER to get (i.e. more expensive). It would still be possible to get them, but it would cost more... or might just be easier to 'specialize'. Would that introduce interesting things to cnsider when building stuff which will earn you acheivement tokens?

Quote:
Now, this may not be a bad thing at all, but I think it may have resulted in a bit more homogenization than I perhaps intended. One thing to try might be to simply force you to pay full cost for your structures rather than getting a “peasant discount”. This simplifies the rules as well.

Like I said, I agree. And simpler rules are always better than more complex ones (all other things being equal).

Quote:
-- Not very many chronicles were recored. My final score was 30 points, and of that total, only about half came from Chronicles.

This is somewhat of a shame, because as I understand it, the Chronicles is really what your game is supposed to be about - what sets it apart from other civ games. But it sounds like it's close... what would happen if you simply weighted the value of the chronicles more? Would it then start to be worth it (at least sometimes) to spend turn actions for cards that you might lose if you don't get to play them? What do you think?

Quote:
It takes a turn action to get a chronicle card into your hand, and then you must have enough achievement tokens to actually record it. Then, after the historian scores out the cards, the chronicles evaporate. Something in this chain is too difficult, and I think the most likely culprits are the loss of chronicle cards after scoring and the difficulty of drawing cards in the first place. I’ll have to look at that a bit.

It sounds like it's one or the other... not both. Either make the cards easier to get (like you auto draw them at the beginning of the game, and discard and draw new ones when the historian comes); or keep the turn action to get them and just don't take them away later.

In fact, in your rules do you start with any of these Chronicle cards? Maybe that would fix it... keep the rules as is, but give people a chronicle card r 2 at the beginning (and maybe 1 more after each Historian). This might give players something to work towards, like the Mission cards in Louis XIV let you know which chips you need to go for. And if they want more for scoring purposes, let them spend their turn actions or whatever.

Another idea, speaking of Louis XIV, is to draw a replacement Chronicle when you play one, such that you've always got something to work towards.

Quote:
On the other hand, prior to the second historian, I drew several Chronicle cards but was only able to record one because I wasn’t able to get enough Achievement tokens into my hand of the correct type -- any time I wanted to do something that would have gained me achievement tokens in that category, there were other more pressing priorities. This was satisfying from a design perspective, an “agonizing choice”.

That sounds promising... so you COULD have acheived the chronicles, but you chose to do other things instead..? It sounds like you need to weight the Chronicles a little bit heavier, if that's what the game is to be about. Either way, it sounds like you had a tough choice to make. Did it end up being the right one? Or should you have gone for the Chronicles?

Quote:
My concern is that the game needs a fair bit of tweaking, probably at least another 10 playings or so, and I’m not sure how realistic that’s going to be; particularly, getting the game tested multiple times by experienced players, which will be crucial to evaluating the strategies and balance.
Well, keep on track. The better the game gets, the more likely you'll get people to playtest it :)

Keep up the good work!

- Seth

Johan
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Sands of Time playtest report

Hi

We had a game session 28 August. This was the second session for all players.
The game including set-up and rules walkthrough (we had one more to refresh the rules) took just above 4 hours.

Here are the results:

A(Me) B C D
Turn (5) 1 1 3 2
Turn (8) 6 4 5 3
Turn (10) 16 11 10 21
Territories 4 3 4 7
Cities 3 2 2 1
Advance 6 3 4 2

- When the game ended I discovered that I had missed to add the new Chronicle cards (2 was removed but none was included and those new once had been game winners in our game since we spread our units around the table).
- The new gameboard was a big improvement. Our game become more relaxed and the production phase was much quicker. Downtime for the players was reduced. Next time I will print the gameboard one size bigger (need the room).
- The last turn did come too quickly in our game (Only one player took a chance on that and he won).
- When I read your report, I feel that our scores are too small.
- The best advance card was democracy (When I got that I could concentrate on advancement and on building). Unrest level was the biggest problem in the game (you had to use a lot of the time to produce and govern). The lack of gold was a constant problem.
- We had no war at all and the warriors was most used to annoy other players (too boost there territory's so the unrest level would increase).
- The major error we did was to go for the big territories where we could have a lot of peasants. It becomes hard to build cities.
- The best structure was bazaar. When you combined it with roads it was very powerful (and become the most popular) combination on the game board.
- The winning player did have done a terrible first half of the game (scoring 3 points in total). After the 8th turn had only the assimilation advancement card. Now he quickly took 3 territories (total 7) and then recorded this both in his chronicle card and another player's chronicle card (The one with the most territories). For that he got 16 point. He also manages to build a city and got 2 extra points for that (he did go from a clear loosing position to winner in 2 turns).

I think that the game flow worked, but I felt constantly frustrated over that I had to so much and had so little time. That was a common feeling when we talked it over.

The removal of the caravans was a good move.

Hope this helped.

// Johan

Johan
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I forgot one comment:
- I think that you should remove the two sided structure cards and you will get those extra achievement tokens when you select to have the use the backside of the advance card.

Scurra
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Johan wrote:
I think that the game flow worked, but I felt constantly frustrated over that I had to so much and had so little time. That was a common feeling when we talked it over.
Is this not generally considered a *good* thing?! I mean, you're supposed to get frustrated in those circumstances. I can see why this would be exacerbated in a four-hour game but even so, if you could do everything you wanted to then there may be something wrong...

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Sands of Time playtest report

Scurra wrote:
Johan wrote:
I think that the game flow worked, but I felt constantly frustrated over that I had to so much and had so little time. That was a common feeling when we talked it over.
Is this not generally considered a *good* thing?! I mean, you're supposed to get frustrated in those circumstances. I can see why this would be exacerbated in a four-hour game but even so, if you could do everything you wanted to then there may be something wrong...

I sort of see Johan's point, actually, as I felt sort of the same way in my playing on Saturday. I think it's possible that the game system is still a little too tight. Because of the need to do actions that improve your Civ AND to take actions that enable you to chronicle those improvements, it can feel sometimes like there isn't time to do what it takes to make forward progress.

However, I also think that the game forces you to accept certain limitations. In our game, for example, the other players used the Govern ability nearly every turn to keep their unrest low. That opens some doors, but it also creates limitations on what you're able to do, since you're burning a third of your actions managing unrest.

So, I think the game needs to strike a happy medium, where it's hard to make progress on all fronts, but where it's realistic to make progress on a few, if you focus. It may not be at that point yet.

-Jeff

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
Sands of Time playtest report

Johan wrote:

We had a game session 28 August. This was the second session for all players. The game including set-up and rules walkthrough (we had one more to refresh the rules) took just above 4 hours.

Thanks for playing! That's still a bit long, but it's moving in the right direction.

Quote:

A(Me) B C D
Turn (5) 1 1 3 2
Turn (8) 6 4 5 3
Turn (10) 16 11 10 21

Are these scores running totals, or are they snapshots? ie, was your final score 16, or 23?

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- When the game ended I discovered that I had missed to add the new Chronicle cards (2 was removed but none was included and those new once had been game winners in our game since we spread our units around the table).

Oops!

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- The new gameboard was a big improvement. Our game become more relaxed and the production phase was much quicker. Downtime for the players was reduced. Next time I will print the gameboard one size bigger (need the room).

I can understand that; my set uses Risk pieces for peasants, and they're pretty small. Anything bigger would definitely need a bigger board!

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- The last turn did come too quickly in our game (Only one player took a chance on that and he won).

I like the variable game end, but I do worry it may be too abrupt given that it takes some time to perform achievements and then chronicle them.

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- When I read your report, I feel that our scores are too small.

I think you may have forgotten the game end scoring, which gives 5/3/1 VP to 1st/2nd/3rd in 3 categories: largest empire, most "temple" symbols, and lowest unrest.

I'm also not sure you paid out VPs for completing cities. Immediately upon building cities, you receive VPs equal to the capacity of the Territory.

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- The best advance card was democracy (When I got that I could concentrate on advancement and on building). Unrest level was the biggest problem in the game (you had to use a lot of the time to produce and govern).

Yes, democracy is definitely good; it's possible that not all of the advances are balanced yet. Unrest is definitely meant to be a big nuisance that you can live with for a while but at some point have to deal with, sapping your resources that you'd like to use to build. But it shouldn't become so much of a problem that the game locks up, so I'll have to keep an eye on that.

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The lack of gold was a constant problem.

Part of this could be the territorial distribution: in the 5-6p game, there are 14 Crops territories and 12 Gold Territories. Perhaps it should be 13-13. Although, in the 4p game, it's 11-11, I believe. Hmm. Maybe the problem is that the things one needs to pay Gold for are more expensive than the things one uses Crops for. I don't mind this, as long as the buildings or unrest reductions that cost gold are consequential enough that they're worth the money.

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- We had no war at all and the warriors was most used to annoy other players (too boost there territory's so the unrest level would increase).

I'm somewhat surprised by this, because in our 2-historian game, we were starting to skirmish late in the game as territories filled up with structures and became valuable. I think that had we played to a 3rd historian, we definitely would have done a fair bit of fighting to wrestle over those territories a bit. But it's also possible that combat is too expensive or too difficult. I can either make it more cost-effective, or just accept that this isn't a very combatitive game, and diminish its role further. I'm not yet sure which of those is the better way to go.

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- The best structure was bazaar. When you combined it with roads it was very powerful (and become the most popular) combination on the game board.

Yes, we found that combination to be very successful as well. Some of the players in our game worried that it was a bit fiddly, and might have been difficult to evaluate how much the bazaar receives. We also had some ambiguity associated with who, exactly, could use "roads" to consider 2 territories adjacent? Just the owner, or any player? I need to formally rule on this at some point.

Just to make sure the language on the bazaar is clear, the rule with that is that you get 1 extra resource for each player with an adjacent territory. That means that the maximum payout of the bazaar in a 4p game is 3 resources.

I also wonder if, given your Gold dearth, it might make sense to just have the bazaar give Gold, rather than have it give whatever resource the territory produces?

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- The winning player did have done a terrible first half of the game (scoring 3 points in total). After the 8th turn had only the assimilation advancement card. Now he quickly took 3 territories (total 7) and then recorded this both in his chronicle card and another player's chronicle card (The one with the most territories). For that he got 16 point.

Your friend found a loophole! You're not supposed to be able to record the same chronicle twice, even if you have assimilation, but I don't think the rules explicitly forbid doing so. I'll need to add that in the rulebook!

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He also manages to build a city and got 2 extra points for that (he did go from a clear loosing position to winner in 2 turns).

He should also have gotten points for building the city as well.

I don't mind the possibility for a big reversal of fortunes, but in this game, it sounds like an unspecified rule allowed the big comeback.

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I think that the game flow worked, but I felt constantly frustrated over that I had to so much and had so little time. That was a common feeling when we talked it over.

As I said in my reply to David, I can understand this feeling. I suspect that the game sort of needs to be expanded to a 16 turn game, but I don't think it can sustain interest for any longer than it currently takes. I think the better path might be to allow for more unidirectional progress in the game. For example, I could reduce the harshness of the "attrition" event, in which you lose half of your resources. I could also allow you to use 4 Prefect actions per turn, rather than 3. As a practical matter, that would mean that people will be able to use the "Scribe" action much more often without having to give up other valuable actions; it shouldn't add too much game length. But I'll probably wait a little longer before implementing that change, as overall I want the game to feel tight. I want you to feel like you can't pursue everything, and must choose which areas (expansion? building? production?) to emphasize.

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The removal of the caravans was a good move.

I still think it's a potentially good "advanced variant", but I agree, the rules explanation alone is much simpler without it, and that alone is enough to keep it out of the game for now for me.

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I think that you should remove the two sided structure cards and you will get those extra achievement tokens when you select to have the use the backside of the advance card.

That's actually a rather big change. I'm open to the idea because I think it would simplify the structures rules quite a bit. The current "reverse side" of Advance cards enables you to build more advanced structures. Are you saying that this side of the card should pay out achievement tokens in addition to this, or instead? If the latter, what system should enable the player to be eligible for more advanced structures?

As I said, I'm open to the idea but I'm curious to hear what problem you found with this aspect of the game that would suggest the need for this change.

Quote:

Hope this helped.

Very much so! I'm glad to have the stats on the game, and your comments and suggestions are very valuable. In your first playing, your group felt that the playability of the game itself was a problem, and that the strategies were opaque. Do you feel, after playing twice now, that these are still problems, or are you starting to get a feel for the game and what one needs to do to score points? Is it starting to be fun? Would you play the game again? (not that I'm asking you to -- you've already invested a tremendous amount of time into the game.)

Again, you have my profound gratitude for your time and insights. Thanks!

-Jeff

// Johan

Anonymous
Sands of Time playtest report

I am glad to have been part of a complete game of Sands of Time, though I think the game would have taken quite an interesting turn had we played to a third historian. As you mentioned, strategies didn't fully develop until past the first historian. I for one had failed to grasp the concept of building and creating cities, something that I certainly should have done more of considering my excess of resources.

In addition, we were all focusing on the building and developing aspects of our territories, with few territories actually changing hands. Right about the time of the second historian, I had reached a saturation point and was ready to make a push into some of the more vulnerable territories. The interesting thing is that it seemed as though IngredientX's wife had the same idea as we were both massing quite a large force over what would have certainly become the Battle for Judea had a few more turns been available to us.

I think it's that feeling of saturation that will drive the third act of Sands of Time to be far more bloody in terms of wars and battles. Even in the 5 player game, it seems as though there will be free territories for players to spread into. Once they do that and have built what they can, then war becomes an inevitable part of continued growth.

Perhaps in a future playtest session I will have the opportunity of playing a full game tothe 3 historian mark to see if my thinking holds true.

Johan
Johan's picture
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Joined: 10/05/2008
Sands of Time playtest report

jwarrend wrote:
Johan wrote:

We had a game session 28 August. This was the second session for all players. The game including set-up and rules walkthrough (we had one more to refresh the rules) took just above 4 hours.

Thanks for playing! That's still a bit long, but it's moving in the right direction.
yes, the game should come down to around 3 hours for 4 players.

Quote:
Quote:

A(Me) B C D
Turn (5) 1 1 3 2
Turn (8) 6 4 5 3
Turn (10) 16 11 10 21

Are these scores running totals, or are they snapshots? ie, was your final score 16, or 23?

Here do we have 2 things that we missed when we calculated points.
- I totally missed that we received points for territory and so on in the end of the game. I have read it but I missed it.
- We just got 1 point for cities when they was build and 1 point each historical turn. That is also my mistake.

I would suggest that you move all VP handling to one chapter in the rules (don’t spread them out).

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- The last turn did come too quickly in our game (Only one player took a chance on that and he won).

I like the variable game end, but I do worry it may be too abrupt given that it takes some time to perform achievements and then chronicle them.
I also like variable endings (I dislike games where you can optimize the last turn as it was no tomorrow).

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The lack of gold was a constant problem.

Part of this could be the territorial distribution: in the 5-6p game, there are 14 Crops territories and 12 Gold Territories. Perhaps it should be 13-13. Although, in the 4p game, it's 11-11, I believe. Hmm. Maybe the problem is that the things one needs to pay Gold for are more expensive than the things one uses Crops for. I don't mind this, as long as the buildings or unrest reductions that cost gold are consequential enough that they're worth the money.
The big problem with gold was the lack of it in our game. I don’t think that this is a game design problem. If you want to have options you can add a market (as an structure) where you can chose if you want crops or gold.

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- We had no war at all and the warriors was most used to annoy other players (too boost there territory's so the unrest level would increase).

I'm somewhat surprised by this, because in our 2-historian game, we were starting to skirmish late in the game as territories filled up with structures and became valuable. I think that had we played to a 3rd historian, we definitely would have done a fair bit of fighting to wrestle over those territories a bit. But it's also possible that combat is too expensive or too difficult. I can either make it more cost-effective, or just accept that this isn't a very combatitive game, and diminish its role further. I'm not yet sure which of those is the better way to go.

This was just the second time we played and we still learning the game.

Quote:
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- The best structure was bazaar. When you combined it with roads it was very powerful (and become the most popular) combination on the game board.

Yes, we found that combination to be very successful as well. Some of the players in our game worried that it was a bit fiddly, and might have been difficult to evaluate how much the bazaar receives. We also had some ambiguity associated with who, exactly, could use "roads" to consider 2 territories adjacent? Just the owner, or any player? I need to formally rule on this at some point.

Just to make sure the language on the bazaar is clear, the rule with that is that you get 1 extra resource for each player with an adjacent territory. That means that the maximum payout of the bazaar in a 4p game is 3 resources.
Yes we did play with that. You also got the same resource as your territory (but that was not clear.

Quote:
Quote:

- The winning player did have done a terrible first half of the game (scoring 3 points in total). After the 8th turn had only the assimilation advancement card. Now he quickly took 3 territories (total 7) and then recorded this both in his chronicle card and another player's chronicle card (The one with the most territories). For that he got 16 point.

Your friend found a loophole! You're not supposed to be able to record the same chronicle twice, even if you have assimilation, but I don't think the rules explicitly forbid doing so. I'll need to add that in the rulebook!
OK. We checked the rules and allowed him to do that.
One other thing. If I record for 8 territories and then loose 2 before I got the VP for it, I still have my recorded territories.

Quote:
Quote:

I think that the game flow worked, but I felt constantly frustrated over that I had to so much and had so little time. That was a common feeling when we talked it over.

As I said in my reply to David, I can understand this feeling. I suspect that the game sort of needs to be expanded to a 16 turn game, but I don't think it can sustain interest for any longer than it currently takes. I think the better path might be to allow for more unidirectional progress in the game. For example, I could reduce the harshness of the "attrition" event, in which you lose half of your resources. I could also allow you to use 4 Prefect actions per turn, rather than 3. As a practical matter, that would mean that people will be able to use the "Scribe" action much more often without having to give up other valuable actions; it shouldn't add too much game length. But I'll probably wait a little longer before implementing that change, as overall I want the game to feel tight. I want you to feel like you can't pursue everything, and must choose which areas (expansion? building? production?) to emphasize.
The most frustrating thing was that we used 2 actions to handle unrest several turns (production for gold and then government). I believe that when you learn the game you can compensate better for this.

Quote:
Quote:

I think that you should remove the two sided structure cards and you will get those extra achievement tokens when you select to have the use the backside of the advance card.

That's actually a rather big change. I'm open to the idea because I think it would simplify the structures rules quite a bit. The current "reverse side" of Advance cards enables you to build more advanced structures. Are you saying that this side of the card should pay out achievement tokens in addition to this, or instead? If the latter, what system should enable the player to be eligible for more advanced structures?

As I said, I'm open to the idea but I'm curious to hear what problem you found with this aspect of the game that would suggest the need for this change.
That was just a suggestion, not a problem. I had an idea on how to change the components to make the game more visible (not change the game), but I want to test and write it down before I come with the suggestion.

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Hope this helped.

Very much so! I'm glad to have the stats on the game, and your comments and suggestions are very valuable. In your first playing, your group felt that the playability of the game itself was a problem, and that the strategies were opaque. Do you feel, after playing twice now, that these are still problems, or are you starting to get a feel for the game and what one needs to do to score points? Is it starting to be fun? Would you play the game again? (not that I'm asking you to -- you've already invested a tremendous amount of time into the game.)

The game worked this time and some strategies were made. This is a game you have to learn to play. I would place this game in the same category as Republic of Rome, Advanced Civilization and Puerto Rico. You have to play the game several times before you get it.
I still think that the game would benefit from rule update (with examples), a turn walkthrough and a chapter (or appendix) with strategy tips.
I am open to try this game once more, but I think that you should do some more tests and update the game (change costs, structures and VP if necessary) before I test it again.

// Johan

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
Sands of Time playtest report

Johan wrote:

I would suggest that you move all VP handling to one chapter in the rules (don’t spread them out).

Or maybe have a summary section at the end about VPs.

Quote:
Quote:

- The best structure was bazaar. When you combined it with roads it was very powerful (and become the most popular) combination on the game board.

Quote:

One other thing. If I record for 8 territories and then loose 2 before I got the VP for it, I still have my recorded territories.

Yes, that's correct. Once recorded, the Chronicles don't change until the Historian emerges. You are allowed to update your Chronicle, if you wish, but presumably you'd only do that if you had gone up rather than down.

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The most frustrating thing was that we used 2 actions to handle unrest several turns (production for gold and then government). I believe that when you learn the game you can compensate better for this.

There are definitely a lot of times when you find yourself short on cash and needing to produce to pay for something or other; it's definitely part of the struggle and learning how to navigate this is, I think, part of the game. One thing I'll note is that Unrest reduction is more expensive the bigger your empire is, so if you're trying to keep costs low for a building strategy, a big-empire strategy doesn't always mesh with that. But it can, if you offset the size with big population. There are a lot of ways to play the game, I think.

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That was just a suggestion, not a problem. I had an idea on how to change the components to make the game more visible (not change the game), but I want to test and write it down before I come with the suggestion.

I'm very eager to hear this suggestion, as any change that could improve the physical presentation of the game and make it easier to play would be most welcome!

Quote:

The game worked this time and some strategies were made. This is a game you have to learn to play. I would place this game in the same category as Republic of Rome, Advanced Civilization and Puerto Rico. You have to play the game several times before you get it.

Hey, that's good company! But I agree, it definitely isn't a game where you see the strategies on the first turn of the first game. I'm still trying to figure out exactly when those strategies become clear, or indeed, whether they exist at all...

Quote:

I still think that the game would benefit from rule update (with examples), a turn walkthrough and a chapter (or appendix) with strategy tips.
I am open to try this game once more, but I think that you should do some more tests and update the game (change costs, structures and VP if necessary) before I test it again.

Sure, a better rulebook would help. I agree, I think it makes sense for me to do a bit more development before you guys run through it again. I'm very glad for your investment of playtesting, but the is still a bit rough around the edges. It probably makes sense for me to be as sure as I can that everything works and is balanced before handing it off to other groups so that they can try to prove me wrong!

Not sure when I'll have this done, but it doesn't sound like you're lacking games to playtest in the meantime!

Thanks again!

-Jeff

Johan
Johan's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/05/2008
Sands of Time playtest report

Hi Jeff.

Would it be possible for you to resend the gameboard and the components? I lost everything in my computer crash. What I need is the gameboard.
I will test my graphic presentation ideas as soon as possible (It will still take several weeks).

...and no. I have no problem with games to test ;).

// Johan

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
Sands of Time playtest report

Johan wrote:

Would it be possible for you to resend the gameboard and the components? I lost everything in my computer crash. What I need is the gameboard.

Here's the link to the fixed (as opposed to variable) version of the gameboard.

I'll try to get the rest of the links to the other components up here later sometime later today or tomorrow (or maybe this weekend).

Enjoy,

Jeff

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