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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

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Ska_baron
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Not really sure which forum this belongs in, but this one could be justified as well as the next, but feel free to move it if you see fit.

So I'd been working on a game design with a large scope, not the biggest game ever, but maybe a bit under Twilight Imperium size. This has been my first design attempt and really I was just in the middle of rules and thinking through mechanics.

Then I kept reading about other games and designers and all come to the conclusion that before you really get into this *oh so* lucrative field of game design that you should know WHY you're doing it. Well, I for one want to be published. A few friends enjoying my game just wouldn't be enough for me.

And I'm not saying that I'm in it for the money (as only the select few seem to actually make substantial money here), but I guess I want to make a business out of it. One source of inspiration being Robert Dougherty and Chad Ellis of Your Move Games (http://www.yourmovegames.com/) who have come up with a BRILLIANT - IMHO - game design in Battleground (it's a miniatures war game but with cardboard pieces... definitely check it out). Anyway, I think that something like this has the potential to create its own niche that solves some of the "problems" (for some) of miniatures like cost, painting, rules (they're on the cards). This idea also has boundless potential for marketability as they already have 3 armies and can only go forward with new, cool armies and creative editions to older armies.

Also, I've been playing a lot of Ticket to Ride lately and so I'm wondering if I should put my larger game on hold (which I am in love with) and focus on working on something smaller and marketable. I'm thinking now of something unlike the Battleground example above, because I'd rather make something more like TtR that is intriguing to both gamers and non gamers (regardless of your personal opinion of the game, I think the fact remains) and marketable to a game company with possibilities for expansions or new versions, etc.

Of course, then I read Tom Vasel's interview with Christian Petersen (http://www.thedicetower.com/interviews/int053.htm), who is the C.E.O. of Fantasy Flight Games and whose first game design was Twilight Imperium. (sidenote: I'd only heard about TI before recently downloading and reading the rules... the game I've been envisioning is going to be similar in the epic feel and space exploration feel, but hopefully something smaller/different mechanics). This was his FIRST game! And it's huge! Maybe it was only so successful because there was nothing like it at the time of it's design/release.

SO! If anyone's even still reading, my question to you is just what are your thoughts? Obviously this is influenced by why you're a designer. I am totally in love with games and designing for design's sake is something I am quite prepared for because the market's a killer. But I sure do have hope. I guess then I dont even have a question, because I've already decided to put the larger design on hold (for now) and focus on "the next gateway game." Too bad all I can think of is trains... ;)

All thoughts welcome and sorry for the length!

Jonathan

Scurra
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

My feeling is that you just keep designing stuff without necessarily caring about the size or the target market. You make big games, small games, quick games, long games, family games, hard-core games... and see what happens. In general, I'm not sure that the first game is the problem - it's what you do next that is relevant. As with many creative endeavours, this is largely because you tend to invest a lot more time and thought into that first game/novel/song etc, usually without considering anything about what sort of payback you get for it, simply because that doesn't really matter. If you discover that it is going somewhere, however, then you start to reconsider what you are doing and why.
Which can be something of a millstone - you can become over-critical (of your own work and others!), you can fall into the trap of feeling as though you need to follow-up consistently, you can get frustrated when a pet project stalls etc.
My only comment (and it's not really advice!) is simply to keep going. Edison's comment about genius being 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration is as applicable in this field as in any other. I don't think anyone can sit down and decide "I'm going to design the next gateway game", because of Goldman's Law: "Nobody Knows Anything." You just keep making the games you like and, somewhere down the line, you'll make one that other people like as well... :)

Nando
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Scurra wrote:
Edison's comment about genius being 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration is as applicable in this field as in any other.
Tesla didn't agree with this and neither do I. Not wholeheartedly, at least.

Xaqery
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Nando wrote:
Scurra wrote:
Edison's comment about genius being 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration is as applicable in this field as in any other.
Tesla didn't agree with this and neither do I. Not wholeheartedly, at least.

wow someone that knows about Tesla. Tesla just liked to disagree with Edison.

I think the 1% 99% sentiment is absolutely true. Ideas are cheap and its the hard work that makes a difference. With that said You often make longer strides if you think things through as much as possible first.

ok here is my official response to this thread:
"The next gateway game."? No offence Jonathan but isn’t this the same as "Lets invent a genre"? If so then like Jeff and others put very well in that thread I think you have to let your passion guide you to some great game you have in your head and hope it catches on / takes off.

Now that I reread Scurra's post I see that I am just about to echo him so I will stop. Well in a second, I believe "If you build it, they will come." If you have made it the best it can be what ever it is then the rest will follow and therefore you should not worry about being published ect.

- Dwight

zaiga
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Nando wrote:
Scurra wrote:
Edison's comment about genius being 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration is as applicable in this field as in any other.
Tesla didn't agree with this and neither do I. Not wholeheartedly, at least.

I'd like to hear your argumentation for this.

Ska_baron
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Xaqery,

I guess I don't see Gateway Games as a genre, but rather a label I'm using to describe games that can have a balance between simple, relateable rules for nongamers and complex choices for gamers. I think a gateway game could come under any of the genre, like Mage Knight as a gateway game for the Minatures genre... I dunno, maybe I'm missing the point and this is all semantics though.

Quote:
I think the 1% 99% sentiment is absolutely true. Ideas are cheap and its the hard work that makes a difference. With that said You often make longer strides if you think things through as much as possible first.

Part of thinking things through - to me right now - is: Would a company (self started or well established) be able to sell this game and expansions or new editions? Of course for any of this to be possible, the game must be very fun and solid. And that, of course, is where the 99% comes in. Do you think I'm just thinking *too* far ahead at this point?

Xaqery
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Ska_baron wrote:
I guess I don't see Gateway Games as a genre, but rather a label I'm using to describe games that can have a balance between simple, relateable rules for nongamers and complex choices for gamers. I think a gateway game could come under any of the genre, like Mage Knight as a gateway game for the Minatures genre... I dunno, maybe I'm missing the point and this is all semantics though.

No you are right; my real point is just follow you heart. If you have a great idea do the work to make your idea great then find a way for the idea to fit into a marketable package.

Ska_baron wrote:
Do you think I'm just thinking *too* far ahead at this point?
I think everyone thinks about expansions and marketablility on the fly. I do. but to think about it more than how to make the idea great is a little the cart bedefore the horse.

- Dwight

Ska_baron
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Ah ha! I *knew* I had a question in all those words up there =) Many thanks for voicing it Dwight!

The chicken or the egg:

Do YOU GUYS think of the market first or the game?

Some thinking on the other side of yours, X:
-I'm in love with my 17th century goods trading game (just thoughts and some rules/mechanics at this point), but GOOD GOD are there a lot of those out in the market right now. Maybe I should retheme? (really might not work) Should I work on another design now? (With the passion for design and the desire to be published)

-I'm in love with my Twilight Imperium-esque game, but geez is that a small market to start off appealing to... maybe I should come up with something (equally passionate about) with more of a universal/gateway feel and then maybe *IF* that's successful then I can expand and work on a game that's target audience is a smaller niche (Sci fi fans, enjoy longer board games with more rules).

DISCLAIMER: I fully acknowledge that rarely is a successful (in publishing) game achieved from only one view or the other - it's a balance between great theme/mechanics/GAME and marketability. I'm just wondering what you guys think of it all, Thanks =)

Scurra
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

The trick seems to be not so much in finding the right game, as in finding the people who understand what needs to be done to make it great. For instance, Stefan Bruck at alea won't come up on any list of "top designers", but it's very, very clear that he has had a hand in every alea game, sometimes from a very early stage - and the number of clunkers from alea is very small (although we would all no doubt disagree which ones they are!) Finding the right set of playtesters is an example of this.

I don't think I have ever considered "marketability" during the early steps of any of my games. But it does follow relatively quickly as you begin to get a handle on what sort of game you have - I know I sometimes categorise designs as my alea game, my Hans im Gluck game, my Cheapass game etc, which does help when trying to decide in which direction I want to take it.

As for the "gateway games" debate: I genuinely think that the likelihood of creating one from out of nowhere is smaller than the chance of being hit by an asteroid.... wait? what's that I see heading towards m

Ska_baron
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Ah... good points Scurra!

Well, what if we divorced "gateway game" from "ridiculously popular/lucrative" here? Then I guess we just have a lighter game that's accessable to a large audience (however, I think this is of course fundamental to most of the "gateway games" out there - the ability for a hardcore gamer to sit down and play this game with parents/significant others/nongaming friends and both enjoy it for the tough decisions, fun and togetherness). Maybe that's what I mean.

Maybe ;)

johant
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

The trick seems to be not so much in finding the right game, as in finding the people who understand what needs to be done to make it great!

Couldnt agree more!

jwarrend
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Quote:
Then I guess we just have a lighter game that's accessable to a large audience

I think that the market is completely awash with "games that can be explained in 5 minutes, are playable in <60 minutes, and have a modicum of strategy", so certainly designing such a game won't hurt your publication chances. But relatively few of these games have risen to the mantle of "gateway games". In my estimation, there are three games that are the "main" gateway games -- Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, and Apples to Apples. If you want to design a gateway game, the best bet might be to look at what these games have in common.

In my experience of playing games with non-gamer friends and family, the absolute number one requirement is a very simple turn structure. What players do on a turn should be extremely limited in scope, and should be very scripted. Carc: flip a tile, and put a guy on it, or not. TtR: draw a card or play track (or get tickets, occasionally). A2A: Pick a card that goes with the adjective. Looking at other characteristics of these games may help to identify what separates a "gateway" game from a "lightweight" game.

In terms of whether it's worth pursuing designing such a game, a not insignificant question is what your playtesters will tolerate. If you have a group that loves your big-box Twilight Imperium-esque game, than giving them a piece of fluff to playtest may or may not appeal to them. And of course, if you tell them that you think going in this direction has a better chance to make you a lot of money, they may not find that to be a compelling reason to invest their time in playtesting.

-Jeff

filwi
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

Nando wrote:
Scurra wrote:
Edison's comment about genius being 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration is as applicable in this field as in any other.
Tesla didn't agree with this and neither do I. Not wholeheartedly, at least.

Can't both be true? If you do something long enough it goes from being prespiration to being inspiration. For example, when I first started writing I worked a lot on it, revising, revising and revising even more. But over time I gained skill. The brief flashes of inspiration followed by the grueling stretches of prespiration have turned into short lengths of inspiration which are coupled with prespiration - I feel that I'm creating while I'm writing. The ideas keep flowing and I don't have the same feeling of struggling with the presentation. So it's still 1 % inspiration and 99 % prespiration but now it feels like 10 % genius and only 90 % work. Perhaps at some time I can do as Heinlein: only rewrite upon editorial request :D

Ska_baron: I'm not published so I can't talk about the business aspects of game design but ask yourself this: If all your games would have the same chance of getting published and becoming a hit, which game would you like to design? Once you know that - go for it!

Flandry
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Long thoughts on designing the next great gateway game.

I have to say Xaqery’s advice resonates the most with me – do the game you want to do first and concern yourself with marketing it second. Isn’t making your dream game a reality the reason why you decided to get into game design in the first place?

I created a game with a friend that’s a total marketing no-no. It’s single player with numerous tables. Sure, it’s a game in the popular sci-fi genre. But it’s about tramp freighter shipping and it just doesn't play the "right" way. There are no upgrades for the ship. No better engines. No weapons of any sort. Not even any pirates. To make matter worse, we published it ourselves on a popular PDF game site that focuses on RPGs - not board games. But we made the game we wanted to make.

So are we getting wealthy off the sales? Of course not. But the game has sold many more copies than we ever thought possible and while it has slipped down in the rankings from time to time, it has persistently been the site’s number one ranked board game for over a year. Who knew? We certainly didn’t. And if you concern yourself first with compromising your designs in the hopes of making them more marketable, you may never know how they could’ve really done either.

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