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Approaches to game design

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clearclaw
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Things without scoring are not games

In practice there are many games without scoring systems, without a method of determining victory. However in the practice of table top gaming I do not consider them games. Instead, they are activities. Games specifically contain the concept of (competitive) victory determination and other things don't. This is a recursive definition. Games are those things with scoring systems. Scoring systems define those things which are games. That recursion is unfortunately unavoidable and perhaps even axiomatic.

Fun, while desirable, has no function in the definition of what is and isn't a game. Sure, things are better when they're fun (for whatever your local definition of "fun" is), but there's nothing in the logical definition of what is and is not a game which requires considering "fun".

Scoring can be anything. Who crosses this line first? Who gets the largest number of X, smallest number of Y? Who is not eliminated? Who gets the Frobbox? Whatever the method, it determines victory. Most money, checkmate, first over the line, last one standing, most points, player with the Snitch, least points -- they're all scoring methods as they set the criteria for victory and thus the entire focus and goal of the game.

There's a built in assumption there, that games are played for victory. But like the differentiation of games versus activities, it isn't so automatic. Many players don't play to win. They have various other reasons and motivations: they want to see what happens, they're along for the ride, something to fiddle with while socialising, make sure that John doesn't win, whatever. In some cases with such player's there's even a counter-morality that trying to win (too hard) is wrong or at least socially unwelcome. However in line with the above differentiation between games and activities as goal-centric activities (ie scoring), such players are not actually playing the game. They have not accepted the definitional cornerstone of the game definition, that victory per XYZ is the purpose of the game (for whatever XYZ scoring method that game has). They're engaged in an activity which masquerades as a game. Presumably at some point the system will pop up and annoints a "winner" in order to end the shared social activity, but the players never accepted that scoring goal for themselves and thus are not striving for victory per that goal. To that extent they are not playing a game, they're involved in a social activity, just one with game-like trappings.

The Magician
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InvisibleJon wrote:Hopping

InvisibleJon wrote:
Hopping back to the original question for a moment...
The Magician wrote:
In an interview, Reiner Knizia, states that he feels scoring is the most important thing because it leads to winning and you want to win. Is this only relevant if elegance is the designers priority, or is it a general important approach no mater what aesthetic goal the designer has in mind? Or are there many important aproaches to different designers? What are your thoughts?
Q: Is scoring only relevant if elegance is your priority?
A: No. Scoring is relevant, even in inelegant games. There are many games that are not elegant that still need scoring systems. In fact, there are many games that are not elegant that I would not bother playing if they did not have a scoring system. Contrariwise, there are some very elegant (or just outright fun) games that I'd be willing to play, even if they didn't have a scoring system.

Q: Is scoring generally important, regardless of your aesthetic goal as a game designer?
A: Hmmmnnn... That's a tough question. A lot of this depends on what counts as a scoring system. Two of my favorite Invisible City games are Fact Party ( http://www.invisible-city.com/play/55/fact-party ) and Jam Doodle ( http://www.invisible-city.com/play/92/jam-doodle ). Fact Party explicitly states that there are no winners or losers. Jam Doodle's win/loss conditions are deliberately vague. A co-operative game of mine that's been licensed for publication (probably late '09!) doesn't have a "score" per se, but has very clear win/loss conditions. Does every game with a win/loss condition have a scoring system by definition?

I think that we, and the game-playing masses, are used to games that have definite end-points and have a clear winner. I think that people in general are used to the story structure of beginning-middle-end, and media (books, movies, games) that doesn't follow that format violates an implicit social contract; it's harder for people to understand, relate to, and accept. In that respect, I think a scoring system is important for a game to have.

Is it essential? Can we make games that don't have a scoring system? Will they be fun to play? I think that the answer to all three is a resounding, "Yes!"

Class is starting... Have to go now!


I love your answer. Thanks! THe way you restate my question is a little different than the question asked. You quote "Is scoring generally important, regardless of your aesthetic goal as a game designer?" I meant: Is scoring the most important aspect in game design in general, or is it only the most important thing in elegant design? I think your answer is sufficiant anyway so it doesn't really matter. But I did want to clearify.

clearclaw
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An abstract view

Abstractly a game can be defined as any system with goals, barriers to accomplishing those goals, and abilities to use to accomplish those goals. At an even simpler level for tabletop gaming, a game can be defined as anything with a scoring system, as the scoring system both sets the goal and describes (at least somewhat) the barriers and player-abilities regarding that goal.

InvisibleJon
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Communication without verbal cues, like inflection, is tricky.

The Magician wrote:
The way you restate my question is a little different than the question asked. You quote "Is scoring generally important, regardless of your aesthetic goal as a game designer?" I meant: Is scoring the most important aspect in game design in general, or is it only the most important thing in elegant design?
Yeah. I wasn't exactly sure I was interpreting your question correctly, so I figured that restating the question that I was answering would help prevent misunderstandings. (Communicating on the Internet is so much more difficult than face-to-face!) It seems that it worked, even if I didn't exactly address your question.

JB
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I'll say scoring is important

I think the scoring system is very important for supporting the theme and feeling of your game. Even in games that don't have a win condition there is usual some sort of points system. In the latest version of Paranoia, an extreemly fun role-playing game where everyone is a loser, there is a Perversity points system. You can earn these chits for two things- entertaining the gamemaster, and disposing of your teammates in a particularly twisted or ironic way. This supports the paranoia of Paranoia and the feeling of bootlicking when the world is run by a totalitarian computer.

In my own game, I have a political theme. So rather than the standard ticking down, like Magic, which supports a feeling of combat, OR ticking up, like Setters, which supports a feeling of accoplishment, I have something very differnt. I have five Totems the whole game that you can take from other and can be taken from you. This feels a lot like a set number of votes and keeps things feeling constantly uncertian. I also employ a tension with Tools. They are very powerful, but once they are all invented you can be out of the game if you have no totems. So it feels to players who are behind like a ticking timebomb, but agian a player who is ahead can be behind a turn later. So it becomes about timing- which agian is reminisent of politics.

Jackhalfaprayer
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"Fun, while desirable, has no

"Fun, while desirable, has no function in the definition of what is and isn't a game. Sure, things are better when they're fun (for whatever your local definition of "fun" is), but there's nothing in the logical definition of what is and is not a game which requires considering "fun"."

I'm afraid this approach is going to make some rather cold and un-interesting games. But this is all beside the point. The goal wasn't to define what is and what is not a game. Though I think this is a valuable discussion (perhaps I'll start another thread for that one...). The point of this thread was to discuss approaches to game design.

The approach that defining what victory conditions are (does this work as a slightly broader definition of scoring?) is a valid one. But I think there must be more to the equation that simply that. "I have no words and I must design" defines a game as "the management of resources, and the making of decisions, in pursuit of a goal." I tend to work from this definition. Thus, when designing a game I tend to attempt to construct goals (scoring systems) and resources (mechanics or tools that allow players to achieve the goals). I tend to believe that by giving the player fresh goals and interesting resources to manage them, exciting decisions will arise. Ignoring the role that interesting resources play in game design, or always determining victory via who has the most points, I fear, will lead to designing many games that end up feeling the same.

Now this far from a perfect system, but it seems to work for me. I think that building a game around a player-interaction paradigm (I have my doubts that the designers of Battlestar Galactica started their design with victory conditions) is a viable system. Or starting from a theme (I know this is what often sparks an idea for me) There must be an infinite number of approaches to game design.

what's yours and why do you feel it's best?

ReneWiersma
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Jackhalfaprayer wrote:what's

Jackhalfaprayer wrote:
what's yours and why do you feel it's best?

When I come up with an idea for a new game I have to answer the following two questions for myself:
1) How do players interact?
2) What is the goal of the game?

Because, sometimes I come up with a great scoring system and supporting mechanics, but the game doesn't allow players to interact. Or, sometimes, I have a great idea for an interactive mechanic, but without an overarching goal in the game yet determined it doesn't serve a purpose.

Starting with a theme makes it easier to determine the goal of the game and how players should interact. In fact, when you get stuck during the design, you can look at the theme and often you'll see the solution right there. Starting with the theme helps me to focus the design, so that's how I usually do it.

Taavet
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Game Goal

This has been a good discussion and I think in general we have pretty much answered everything.

Games are played for various reasons.

Games are designed by various methods.

Victory Conditions for games as defined above are essential.

Many other factors are more vital to different players' experiences then victory.

Most, although not all, games need themes, although themes help to tie a game together.

Personally, I approach designs from several different angles. Sometimes a theme will hit me and I think it would make a great design then I come up with matching mechanics and victory conditions. Sometimes I hear of a mechanic or idea and think that would work great implemented in this certain way and then associate it with an appropriate theme and victory conditions. And very few times do I think of a scoring method and then build a game around it.

I think the inspiration process and the actual approach differs from game to game and no designer follows a rigid set of steps to produce their design every time.

Just remember that no matter how much of the above you have done it really comes down to playtesting and feedback from blind playtesters.

larienna
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A game without a scoring

A game without a scoring method or any form of competition is not a game but rather a toy.

Not following the games objective could be fun.

Reminds me of my first twillight imperium game. The game was going pretty bad for me and it was long and boring. So I selected a player, the one with the most points, and I attacked.

All the players were like "what is he doing?". They all tought I had a secret of objective of some kind, but no it was a personal objective: capture the homeworld of another player.

So I just keep putting preasure on that player which had a "WTF" reaction. Doom stars came in later to puch the enemy. I was last in the victory points, but it was so much fun.

Unfortunately, the game did not reward a fun part of the game which is capture an opponent's home world. So this is why players does not do that because it won't lead you to victory. Instead, they prefer to reward other boring stuff.

brisingre
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Yeah

Twilight Imperium's objective system isn't great. It works out for my group, because we have the exact right sort of people and a ton of backstabbery and backroom dealing emerges from the system. Any more or less competitive than that, and it fails to reward people who do interesting things. It might be an interesting variant to play to only a few victory points, and only one player could claim each objective. I'll throw that out to my group, we try to play the game differently every time.

Jimmy
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many approaches to game design

Yes, there are many approaches to game design, but they are all just starting points: some of us starts with the theme while others with the concept of the game or with the mechanics.
but you still need to take care of every aspect of your game,for example if you starts from the mechanics it doesn't mean your game can't be fun or can't have some role-playing elements in it (or a strong theme) and vise versa, if you starts with the theme it doesn't mean your game doesn't have to be complex (with many strategies and hard decision making).
As a game designer you have to make sure your game is well thought from every aspect.

As for my approach to game design... it varies, most of the time I have some cool theme in my mind and so i starts with it, but some time I have a cool mechanic that i believe in and starts building the game from there.

The Magician
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Jackhalfaprayer wrote:"Fun,

Jackhalfaprayer wrote:
"Fun, while desirable, has no function in the definition of what is and isn't a game. Sure, things are better when they're fun (for whatever your local definition of "fun" is), but there's nothing in the logical definition of what is and is not a game which requires considering "fun"."


That true. I do a lot of physical labor jobs like landscaping and construction. Often I will play a game with myself relating to the job in my own mind. It doesn't make it fun but makes time go a little faster.

brisingre
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Mechanics or Theme

Jimmy wrote:
Yes, there are many approaches to game design, but they are all just starting points: some of us starts with the theme while others with the concept of the game or with the mechanics.
but you still need to take care of every aspect of your game,for example if you starts from the mechanics it doesn't mean your game can't be fun or can't have some role-playing elements in it (or a strong theme) and vise versa, if you starts with the theme it doesn't mean your game doesn't have to be complex (with many strategies and hard decision making).
As a game designer you have to make sure your game is well thought from every aspect.

As for my approach to game design... it varies, most of the time I have some cool theme in my mind and so i starts with it, but some time I have a cool mechanic that i believe in and starts building the game from there.

I'm the opposite. I tend to design from mechanics. That said, the game I have that is closest to done started with a theme... This'd make an interesting poll, actually. Mechanics or Theme?

Katherine
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Problem came first for me,

Problem came first for me, followed by theme and then mechanics.

clearclaw
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Problem->mechanisms->theme

The logical problem always comes first for me, then mechanisms and last or somewhere mixed into the middle, theme. I've no binding to theme; it is just a source of convenient nouns and verbs to couch the game in. However as discussed in my article Theme meme mimetics, if I isolate the problem and mechanisms with sufficient accuracy then thematic accuracy falls out as a natural by-product.

Aquinas
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My approach

I mostly start with mechanic, stick it in a theme, and then go to a scoring mechanism I can tie to that mechanic+theme. After that it's filling in the flow.

But wait, do I really do that? Actually, I've found that that's what I want to do ideally, but lately I end up starting with an atmosphere and then try to get a mechanic and/or scoring mechanism that will work with the atmosphere. Almost equally, I have found that I start with what I want the finished game to look like and what kinds of components/material it will use (such as cool wooden pieces or neat artwork).

What's wrong with me? I guess I am romantic about game design. :)

End of Time Games
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Aquinas wrote:I mostly start

Aquinas wrote:
I mostly start with mechanic, stick it in a theme, and then go to a scoring mechanism I can tie to that mechanic+theme. After that it's filling in the flow.

But wait, do I really do that? Actually, I've found that that's what I want to do ideally, but lately I end up starting with an atmosphere and then try to get a mechanic and/or scoring mechanism that will work with the atmosphere. Almost equally, I have found that I start with what I want the finished game to look like and what kinds of components/material it will use (such as cool wooden pieces or neat artwork).

What's wrong with me? I guess I am romantic about game design. :)


I'm kind of like you. I get a rough impression of what I want the overal game to be, then I fill in the detail. Whatever aproach completes a game!

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