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Balance - where to start?

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Sat, 09/14/2013 - 07:26
MayuPolo
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Joined: 11/12/2012

Hi everyone,

I am hoping to employ your collective minds to help me out with a problem. I am a newbie game designer. I have an idea for a card game I want to actually develop a prototype for. Now the problem I have is where to start with balancing the cards.

Cards will have an attack value and a health value. Pretty standard stuff, but now that I am actually writing down specific cards, I am wondering what my starting points should be since I have no real reference. Of course I can say, ok a Dragon is supposed to be stronger than a goblin for example. But how much stronger? Also, do I use small number like Magic or large number like Yugioh (or maybe it doesn't matter).

When you are designing a game that involves stats, where do you start in terms of balancing? Or should I just take a "best guess" approach and then tweak it once we start playtesting?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Mayu

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Sat, 09/14/2013 - 08:29
#1
Veldriss
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Joined: 07/26/2008
You can use many systems to

You can use many systems to balance, the simplest is to give the same amount of points and distribute them in the various characteristics ... characteristics could be ATTACK, DEFENSE, HEALTH, MOV, TRANSPORT CAPACITY, FLY, etc. ... the total points to be distributed could be 10.

A creature might have 10 points spent as follows:
ATTACK: 1
DEFENSE: 2
HEALTH: 3
MOVEMENT: 3
TRANSPORT CAPACITY: 1
FLYING: 0 (no)

Another creature might have 10 points spent as follows:
ATTACK: 3
DEFENSE: 1
HEALTH: 3
MOVEMENT: 2
TRANSPORT CAPACITY: 0
FLYING: 1 (yes)

and so on ... or you may consider CAPACITY TRANSPORT most important and then having to spend double points; FLY maybe even more important than the other and then having to spend triple points:

A creature might have 10 points spent as follows:
ATTACK: 1
DEFENSE: 2
HEALTH: 2
MOVEMENT: 3
TRANSPORT CAPACITY: 2
FLYING: 0 (no)

The creature could have spent 10 points as follows:
ATTACK: 1
DEFENSE: 1
HEALTH: 3
MOVEMENT: 2
TRANSPORT CAPACITY: 0
FLYING: 3 (yes)

If you increase the spendable points, will also increase the combinations, you would create a basic breeds that have the minimum or maximum values ​​for some features, while other features may be very powerful, or not have them at all.

Così ci sarà la razza dove tutti sanno volare e un'altra razza dove nessuno sa volare... ovviamente sarai costretto ad inserire un'abilità che consenta a chi non sa volare di attaccare chi vola.

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Sat, 09/14/2013 - 10:23
#2
Parthon
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Joined: 07/08/2013
It depends.

It depends on what the stats are and how they factor into the game. Do you have just one attack stat or are there several? Does damage persist like in Pokemon, or does it heal at the end of the round like in Magic? Are there other values like speed/movement? How do special powers factor into the game?

Generally, you can invent some kind of function and then tweak it later. Taking Magic as an example: A 1 mana creature normally has 1 attack and 1 health, plus a minor ability like haste or flying. A 2 mana creature will have roughly 4 total attack and health with a minor ability. A 3 mana creature will often have a combination of 6 total attack, health and minor abilities.

Most balance is mathematical, but first you have to figure out how the maths play out. Even then, some cards that might be balanced mathematically, turn out to be overpowered in actual play.

The best way to figure out a good level is to try out a core set of about 10 cards that you can balance the game around, then extend that to all the other cards you have planned. The goblin and dragon cards are a good start, one is an early cheap card and the other is a large expensive card.

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Sat, 09/14/2013 - 10:42
#3
zmobie
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Joined: 11/19/2008
As others here have

As others here have suggested, start with a basic cost/benefit curve... Something like, for every resource you spend on the card, you get +1 to some stat. Just something to get you started so you can make some cards. (or just steal liberally from magic. They know what they're doing).

Now, that said... This is as much as you need to worry about balance until you can actually play the game. Don't spend time balancing a game whose core mechanics are in flux. You'll end up wasting a lot of time and energy. You just need the scaffolding of some kind of balance curve to hang your game on until you get everything else where you want it.

After you've got a solid game, and sort of have an idea for how the system works, I recommend this course for getting everything balanced...

http://gamebalanceconcepts.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/level-1-intro-to-gam...

This site is also good in that it provides you a cost breakdown of MTG, so you might just be able to use their cost curve to start.

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Sat, 09/14/2013 - 11:41
#4
Parthon
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Joined: 07/08/2013
Wow, that's a great series!

Wow, that's a great series!

I'm going to attempt to read the whole thing now. :P

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Sat, 09/14/2013 - 13:13
#5
Corsaire
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Joined: 06/27/2013
As to scale of numbers, I

As to scale of numbers, I think there are two basic elements. Big numbers like in Yugioh appeal to younger players and big numbers feel a little more scifi-ish

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Sat, 09/14/2013 - 13:26
#6
McTeddy
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Joined: 11/19/2012
There are two methods that

There are two methods that I've found to work fairly well.

The first is the "Baseline" method. Create an "Average" monster that which will give you a reference point for your new cards. When you create a new card ask yourself, "How does this monster compare to the average one?" and set his stats accordingly.

The other is the "best guess" where you just take an educated guess. It can help to use other games as a reference point... for example: "This card is weak... so lets give it a 1 Attack and 1 Defense like weak cards in magic"

- - -
Two other pierce of advice...

First, START SMALL! Don't create 200 cards and try to balance them all together. This is a frustratingly difficult task and should be avoided. Instead, make 10 cards and balance them.... make another 10 and balance them... then balance the two sets of 10 together.
Working in manageable chunks will make everything much easier.

Second, the less data you have on the cards... the easier it will be to balance. Cards with only an "Attack Power" stat can be balanced easily.... but ones that have "Cost", "Attack", "Defend", and "Health" are much more difficult.
Just keep this in mind during the early stages of development. Don't be afraid to cut some stats.

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Sat, 09/14/2013 - 18:21
#7
questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
My method is similar

Strangely enough this thread appeared just as I was considering doing the same thing: balance Hero cards.

Like some of the suggestions, I was going to decide the strength of cards and then use an allotted amount of points for each Hero.

For example: Hero #1 is a WEAK Hero. So I would give only 5 points to distribute amongst 3 stats...

Something like that... Once done, I will probably check during playtesting to see if the balance is good.

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Sun, 09/15/2013 - 01:35
#8
MayuPolo
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Joined: 11/12/2012
Very useful advice so thank

Very useful advice so thank you already for that!

My game is actually not a TCG like Magic but I think the advice was very applicable nonetheless.

In my game there are Hero style cards and monsters. Players try to use their heroes to defeat or capture these monsters (think Pokemon but with a more adult fantasy theme).

This means I have to balance the Heroes against each other, the heroes against the monsters and also to some degree the monsters against each other since capturing monsters will give victory points.

I also have to decide how long I want an average fight with a monster to take. That should help me decide the damage am average hero does and the health am average monster has. Right now I want a fight with a monster to feel epic so it should take a least a few rounds to defeat one monster. So it a Hero can do 3 damage a turn for example. Maybe an average monster would have 7 to 10 health.

Agains, thanks very much for all the feedback. I am impressed how willing to help out this community is. :)

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