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X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Projectile, 14 textures displayed in word
Projectile, Prototype map: 2 players - Each others back

I don't know where to put this question. So I put it in Design Theory.

"This box contains Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue and Purple."

But a thought occurred. What if a player is colour blind?
What colours can that player see and what not?

The colours are only there to be put on a stack of other cards. To indicate to who it belongs too.
By searching this forum, there aren't much topics about this.
I could put the words on the cards as well.
But are there better solutions?

This questions also applies to my pictures of the units. Can green and brown go together and still be seen separately? Or do they become 1 blur to the colour blind?

donut2099's picture
Joined: 01/09/2014
There are different kinds of

There are different kinds of colorblindness (or colourblindness if you like ;) ). The most common type i believe is red-green colorblindness, resulting in the inability to easily distinguish between red and green. I guess the solution depends on the problem. If the game depends on a player's ability to discern colors, is it not possible for the player to ask other players 'is that red or green?'

RGaffney's picture
Joined: 09/26/2011
Something like 10 percent of

Something like 10 percent of men are colorblind. If it is in any way possible you should use patterns in addition to colors

SLiV's picture
Joined: 10/21/2011
donut2099 wrote:If the game

donut2099 wrote:
If the game depends on a player's ability to discern colors, is it not possible for the player to ask other players 'is that red or green?'

No, not at all. Not if it's a game that in any way involves strategy, hidden traitor mechanics, worker placement, hidden information mechanics or dexterity / reaction time.

To be honest, you should never have to rely solely on colours to discern differences between objects. Even as a non-colourblind person, the difference between green and blue in a poorly lit room can be hard to tell. Usually, there's no real reason not to have a small symbol on each type of card.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Searching results in...

A good thing that I have kept symbols for the different statistics. Than just colored chips.

The main issue in my game is the colors added to each squad. But with army symbols, this should work just fine.
There are tons of examples. All I need to do is think of 9 designs. And add 1 of the colors to each.

First tier has Red/Yellow/Blue
But I am planning on adding Orange/Green/Purple including some mercenary rules.
Eventually the second tier will become full fledged armies.
The third tier would add White/Black/Brown

That was plan A. Now for plan B:

It is indeed the color Green that catches my attention. After all, one of my buddies doesn't see Green. So for him, Red, Brown and Orange will become blurry too. And thus he suddenly starts complaining. Good that he does.

In a matter of fact, pink(purple) etc. disappear too if you go from normal to colorblind. Only people who have been colorblind for a long time or from birth, will be able to recognize more colors individually. Where Pink will be one of the first.

Here you can compare normal with colorblind:
Making dog games? If anyone is interested:

So we normally have 3 different cones in our eye's, which make up all the colors. Women have often better quality or quantity and see a bit more differences.
Colorblind people are missing 1 of these cones. The minimum of cones for people seems to remain 2. So there are only 3 common color blindness for humans.

There are not much options left for me if I really want to use colors.
The combination Red/Yellow/Blue still seems to do well.
Black and White are default additions.
But any other color, and one of the color blind people will have troubles.

So 5 "colors" with plan B.
I think I too stick with plan A.

pelle's picture
Joined: 08/11/2008
Gimp has a built-in filter

Gimp has a built-in filter you can enable for viewing s picture as seen by different types of colorblind while you work. Inkscape can do it as well (might require third-party plugin). Would be surprised if not the other common tools do it as well.

Hunter's picture
Joined: 11/18/2013
I would tend to agree with

I would tend to agree with RGaffney - I think adding distinguishable patterns in the colored areas is the best solution. It comes down to finding a non-hue/saturation related cue that fits with the rest of your design visually.

For example, you could use different types of camouflage patterns in addition to the different colors. That way you're keeping with the game's themes, keeping your color scheme for the fully-visioned, and adding another visual cue to help all players distinguish cards.

Just my 2 cents!

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Well, I am taking actions

Well, I am taking actions regarding this. But it is kinda hard doing so. I have to throw around symbols everywhere to make sure.

Is there a way to determine what kind of color blindness someone has?
Since my friend had less troubles with the maps that I am making.
My friend can see a difference between green and yellow with ease.
But has troubles seeing orange and purple compared to brown. It just so happens that those 2 colors where regions with a number on it. Yet he guessed the purple since it is in the middle of a large yellow of green field. He can't see the orange number on the purple region. So no difference between orange and purple either.

Tested him with the test strips.

Wow, that is rare. But he is lucky I guess. He still can see a lot. No wonder he says, he thinks yellow is white. Ok, So that means no white as default either. -.-

ReneWiersma's picture
Joined: 08/08/2008
Since I am myself color-blind

Since I am myself color-blind I thought I'd comment.

I can sometimes have trouble distinguishing red and green and green and brown. This is the most common form of color-blindness. In daylight it is easier for me to distinguish between colors than with artificial lighting. The hue and brightness also matters a lot. I can distinguish between bright green and dark-brown, but more pastel tinted greens and browns become problematic.

When using colors: use bright red, yellow and blue. Then add black. Then add white. Then add grass-green or a light pink. After this it becomes problematic. Try to avoid brown as much as you can.

You can't possibly cater to every color deficiency there is when using more than three colors. Try to use icons and imagery in addition to colors whenever possible.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
A new prototype map

I have uploaded a very recent prototype map. It was a quick-y, just for a testing. (True size is almost 1 meter)
My friend claims to see all differences now. I removed orange and purple for him, they where both red in his eye's.
That is enough for the first prototypes with my friends. I checked and double checked with my buddy.

Now I understand why hexographer has icons. Therefor, if I want to put maps here. I should not put maps like this one here. But versions with hexographer. Are there any rules to that on this forum?

larienna's picture
Joined: 07/28/2008
Quote:"This box contains Red,

"This box contains Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue and Purple."

OK, that is bad, because I only see 5 colors:

Light Green
Dark Green

I imagine brown is either red, orange or purple to you. Normally, I don't have problems seeing colors, but rather distinguishing them when there are many or if they are very close to each other.

Yes, Using a simple pattern can do wonders. Not sure if I have some examples, because I did this for one of my game too. Unfortunately, I don't have it with me.

Even my hand drawn map, I tried to have some sort of pattern with the crayon strokes:

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Updates and forum limits

That map is an update on decisions that I made. It is now friend friendly sort of speak.

For the "even better" quality prototypes, once I am done testing map sizes with my friends. I will be using something like this for maps:
But then pictures that completely fit my taste.

For the 9 armies I will use 9 army symbols. More like these:

Of course my own design for both. Although I am bad at arts.
Symbols will be the easiest to do. We are still content with the old unit pieces.
So army symbols first.
Then map symbols.

larienna's picture
Joined: 07/28/2008
You don't have to have

You don't have to have complex graphics like that. It might be even more confusing this way.

For example, in the map I designed which I had no sample to show you, forest was draw using green hollow circles. Deserts were drawn with small yellow crosses. Mountains with brown inverted "V".

So the pattern does not have to be artwork, but rather a recognisable pattern.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Good advice

I am taking that advice Larienna.
Although I will be putting just a bit a slightly more detail in my texture. Using WC2 as inspiration. Since I want the texture look like the terrain.

Once all are finished. I will post them on this forum as well.
Although, they will look like notching to real artists. I think they will cause a good laugh.

- Practically:
I don't know yet if I should go with individual hexagons placed on an empty map. Which requires one time editing only in paint. Yet a lot of effort by cutting and pasting paper. Once done, any map can be made. Unless I want smaller/bigger sized hexagons.

- In paint:
Or try to find a way to edit the new textures into the big maps.
Since the textures are triangular or hexagon. It is difficult to place them without damaging neighbouring hexagons.
However, in the Paint case, there will be a moment where any combination has been placed once. All I need to do is copy/paste that part. And it will be easy. The map prints can also be any size as well. All I have to do is print with a different size.

Textures until now are considered to be good, according to my friends.
Grass, tree's and dead tree's.

Personal notes:
Textures that I still need to think of; dessert, water, mountain/Rocks
If mountain is mixed with grass, both symbols need to be visible.
If mountain is mixed with dessert, both symbols need to be visible.
If mountain is mixed with water, both symbols need to be visible.
There for, the grass symbol needs to be in the same place as the dessert and water symbol.
The rock symbol needs to be placed in a different place. And mountains will only contain rock symbols.
Tree's cover up 2 grass/dessert/water symbols. But 2 more are always visible. The rocks will be somewhere in between the tree and other symbols.

And yes, there will be a tree with rocks in the water. :)

Rocks will probably be small circles (with brown within). As you suggested.
Water will be a wave.
Dessert a vertical wave? I don't know. Advice on Dessert?

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
I have added 14 textures to

I have added 14 textures to my manual.
As how they are displayed in the manual.

The real ones for the map are sharper though.
I asked my cousin if he can come up with an editor to use these. (he is a programmer)

When the prototype is fun enough and becomes real work, I will search for a proper artist. But for now, it is up to my play testers to tell me if the game is fun enough.

My friend understands each symbol.
And I can tell them apart as well when it is just black/white.

But any thoughts on these (fast prototype textures)?

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