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Designing a wargame story for 2 players

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X3M
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I have done this in the past. But I noticed how hard it can be for the player controlling an AI that is strict to a script...
So, I need a true opponent. And thus the "single player" campaign allows for 2 players. Where the player controlling the AI can choose instead. The true AI would simply be a dice roll and choose. There are many more differences. Let's just say, 2 players make the game more interesting.

The rules regarding the whole story would be:

- Both players take turns in being the main "player". I call this now the attacker.
- The other player is often forced to follow a script to a degree. This will be the defender.
- The players switch sides in the next chapter of the story. When the attacking player wins.
- The winner of the round decides on the technology development for the next round. Either a research path or/and an unit/defence/structure etc.
- The loser of the round decides on the technology development for the defender.
- Map expansion and possible next mission are chosen by both players. Each pick one expansion of choice. If both pick the same, this is it. If not, a die roll decides.

Players track their victories.
Winning as attacker is 2 points.
Winning as defender is 3 points.

questccg
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Maybe Dr. Lew can help?!

Dr. Lewis Pulsipher has a background in History I believe (he is educated as a Historian...) You could maybe ask him what a good story for a wargame could be. It doesn't need to be factual (completely), it can be inspired from an actual war or less-known conflict and you could "fill-in the details"...

Or maybe see if he knows of anyone else who is good at war-time story-telling. That's another option.

Note #1: I may have been "confused" with the title and then the contents... But perhaps you were looking for several answers!? You mentioned "wargame story" and your thread was about AI. So I'm not at all sure which this topic is more about (if not BOTH - maybe)!

Note #2: Again because I'm not sure... When it comes to "stories" for a wargame... I think most wars talk about "smaller" battles and/or victories. Like the Battle of Normandy in WWII where the allies stormed the beach... So maybe you can focus on scenarios where it's all about "a battle". Like "Storming the Eagle's Nest" (fictitious) where it's a battle against an AI "defender". Maybe there are like 2 Snipers which are blocking the mercenaries from entering the palace... IDK I'm just hypothesizing... And those snipers cannot be "killed" you need to use vehicles to block infantry to the entryway.

And maybe your Battle Card explains the field setup to players... Again just some general ideas for you to think about...

Note #3: Picture something like "Starcraft" where you need to storm an enemy camp (for example). The AI aggressor doesn't come to you ... You MUST go to it. And then it's a matter of working through their defenses ... Such that you can "capture the camp" (another example). But yeah... I draw some inspiration from "Starcraft" or "Warcraft" ... Both a scenario driven and there are different challenges.

Note #4: Another such of story could be a "rescue mission" where you need to escort a diplomat from beyond the enemy lines.. And so there is a bit of stealth involved, a different type of challenge. Smaller party... Try to avoid enemy contact as much as possible...

Note #5: This is a "technical idea" ... And what I mean it has to do with the FORMAT of HOW you have the information for a "mission". You could use TGC's FOLIOS like this:

There are a total of 8 cards that can be used for Mission Layout, Enemy troop setup, some mission information (short storyline), etc... You can do a LOT with 8 cards! For sure...

Note #6: ONE SIDE could be the entire "battlefield" (4 cards worth of AI units that battle your player...) Maybe... IDK just another idea! But it means like 1 page to describe in maybe a table of sorts the TYPE of AI units. Like "1" = Infantry Gunmen (3 unit groups) as the first entry in the table and on the opposite side in the "battlefield" you'll see "1" at different locations... Same for the other units...

Note #7: "Our drones have scoped-out the layout of the land and this is the 'battlefield' we are expected to traverse..." So it can be like an aerial map of the mission... And if you have CARDS to represent your units (like the "Infantry Gunmen") that can be a card for each type of unit for the mission ... You can BUNDLE that + the Folio (or map...) into a 18 card booster (maybe 8 allied units for the player and 8 enemy units for the AI and then add the folio which is like 2 cards).

Or you could have OTHER cards too... IDK what your wargame is comprised of (Units, Equipment?, Missiles?, Nukes?) But the idea would be to make each BOOSTER for one mission... Something cool like that! Maximum 18 cards too a BOOSTER...

And here's why I like this idea: you can VARY the Allied and Enemy troops to make some missions HARDER than others! That's freaken cool AND strategic... Amazing replayability!

Note #8: The map idea (4 cards tiled together in a folio) remind me of an older Military Game called "Airborne Ranger". At the start of the mission, you FLY over the territory and you can get a feel for the terrain and plot out your mission a bit.

Here's a screenshot of what the aerial view looked like (of course you could use hexes ... That's not a constraint):

BTW you can click on the image to get a bit bigger size. You see there are SMALL and LARGE BUNKERS, WALLS, HILLS, TRENCHES, MINES, TREES, etc. Sort of like this but with the troop information (1 to 8 maybe???)

You could probably ignore the content of this Screenshot and focus on how YOU want to present your own data on the map (and it can be different for each mission/scenario). Sometimes there are bunkers, sometimes not... Just to vary things a bit... Sometime you battle in a shambles of a city so there are demolished buildings and walls around, etc. Just see what you can come up with... I'm sure you'll be able to think up a lot!

terzamossa
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Hello X3M, from my point of

Hello X3M,
from my point of view if it is another player choosing what the AI does, that is not AI, it is a competitive 2 player game :)
(even in the case one of the players can only choose between a few option given by cards that you could indeed call AI)
You should check the game Solomon Kane, I think it is fairly similar to the idea you are discussing. The game can be plaid solo, with AI cards, but you can play it competitively with one player drawing 2 AI cards and choosing which one to play (which as you say, makes it much harder for the player).

If it was script like, I guess your AI would have "if" conditions to decide among options?

X3M
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terzamossa wrote:Hello

terzamossa wrote:
Hello X3M,
from my point of view if it is another player choosing what the AI does, that is not AI, it is a competitive 2 player game :)
(even in the case one of the players can only choose between a few option given by cards that you could indeed call AI)
You should check the game Solomon Kane, I think it is fairly similar to the idea you are discussing. The game can be plaid solo, with AI cards, but you can play it competitively with one player drawing 2 AI cards and choosing which one to play (which as you say, makes it much harder for the player).

If it was script like, I guess your AI would have "if" conditions to decide among options?


Ah yes.
Let me first say. I didn't get to the second part yet.
Was too busy and needed to do stuff suddenly. :)
My second part will be more skelleton structure before the actual story would take place.

Nonetheless. Let me answer you first.

I agree with that it is actually a 2 player game now.
I must edit my first post to make it clearer.

In regards to the AI. Obviously, if there is no second player present. I need to make a good AI. I guess this should be added in later. Since "programming" an AI can be tedious. My oldest work was based on a deck of cards and a die roll and then the actionSSS the AI would take. Meaning that from the deck, 6 cards in total are drawn. The die roll would choose a card. And then the AI keeps rolling until it rolls a used card. That was one way of how we did it. Another way was a true script to follow. With IF's and Then's and While's. Very complicated indeed.
But seeing as how tactical moves are super important in this game nowadays. The need for a second player was born.

I have heared about Solomon Kane before. I shall research this at a pleasentry time.

So, I must make a choice. Should I go completely single player? Or make it a 2 player campaign?
Co-op, if mentioned.... Is kinda a single player campaign with AI. But more complicated... Still a lot of fun though and can easy be added to the true single player campaign.

X3M
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questccg wrote:Dr. Lewis

questccg wrote:
Dr. Lewis Pulsipher has a background in History I believe (he is educated as a Historian...) You could maybe ask him what a good story for a wargame could be. It doesn't need to be factual (completely), it can be inspired from an actual war or less-known conflict and you could "fill-in the details"...
Mine is more of a sci-fi game. That is kinda like C&C or KKnD or Warcraft 123 etc.

questccg wrote:

Or maybe see if he knows of anyone else who is good at war-time story-telling. That's another option.
Most important part would be that the parts of the map will tell the story. Players would evolve the armies. 2 Factions are going to be created by 2 players. It might become very balanced since both players want to get the highest points. Which can be achieved by the defending player winning. The defending player will start with some disadvantages and advantages like the AI in several RTS games.

questccg wrote:

Note #1: I may have been "confused" with the title and then the contents... But perhaps you were looking for several answers!? You mentioned "wargame story" and your thread was about AI. So I'm not at all sure which this topic is more about (if not BOTH - maybe)!
Let's scrap the AI part for now.

questccg wrote:

Note #2: Again because I'm not sure... When it comes to "stories" for a wargame... I think most wars talk about "smaller" battles and/or victories. Like the Battle of Normandy in WWII where the allies stormed the beach... So maybe you can focus on scenarios where it's all about "a battle". Like "Storming the Eagle's Nest" (fictitious) where it's a battle against an AI "defender". Maybe there are like 2 Snipers which are blocking the mercenaries from entering the palace... IDK I'm just hypothesizing... And those snipers cannot be "killed" you need to use vehicles to block infantry to the entryway.

And maybe your Battle Card explains the field setup to players... Again just some general ideas for you to think about...

Battle's take part in new portions of the map. The missions are based on these. The attacking players base will remain. Resources go with the player. So there can't be sabotage. Obviously, there are some hidden strategies here. My primairy goal would be that the missions themselves would take like an hour or 2 at most. But the whole campaign might be like weeks. :) We are just that kind of players.

I certainly want to add a mission with support units, artillery, avia, ships, specialists etc. as the main point of the mission. 1 technology should be added every mission. Which would be part of the second part of the story skelleton.

questccg wrote:
Note #3: Picture something like "Starcraft" where you need to storm an enemy camp (for example). The AI aggressor doesn't come to you ... You MUST go to it. And then it's a matter of working through their defenses ... Such that you can "capture the camp" (another example). But yeah... I draw some inspiration from "Starcraft" or "Warcraft" ... Both a scenario driven and there are different challenges.
Starcraft is indeed a good example. I too made scripts in Starcraft 1. The triggers where "forged" :)

questccg wrote:
Note #4: Another such of story could be a "rescue mission" where you need to escort a diplomat from beyond the enemy lines.. And so there is a bit of stealth involved, a different type of challenge. Smaller party... Try to avoid enemy contact as much as possible...
The canyon mission again. Lol. I certainly need to get it in. Snipers are key here. They need to hunt the other side which is running.

questccg wrote:
Note #5: This is a "technical idea" ... And what I mean it has to do with the FORMAT of HOW you have the information for a "mission". You could use TGC's FOLIOS like this:

There are a total of 8 cards that can be used for Mission Layout, Enemy troop setup, some mission information (short storyline), etc... You can do a LOT with 8 cards! For sure...

We want the map to grow. So the missions are linked to the parts added.

questccg wrote:
Note #6: ONE SIDE could be the entire "battlefield" (4 cards worth of AI units that battle your player...) Maybe... IDK just another idea! But it means like 1 page to describe in maybe a table of sorts the TYPE of AI units. Like "1" = Infantry Gunmen (3 unit groups) as the first entry in the table and on the opposite side in the "battlefield" you'll see "1" at different locations... Same for the other units...

The units and structures are going to get a number. The map is displayed in the mission. The numbers on the map show which units/structures start where. This is entirely separate of what kind of units and structures are going to get that number. Of course, a bit of randomness can be applied. If the defender wants to have more of a certain unit or structure. Then 2 or 3 set-ups can be chosen from. Or rolled for.

Either way, no cards with missions. If there are cards, they would contain the actions instead. But that is entirely for the AI. I am going to focus for now on 2 players.

questccg wrote:

And here's why I like this idea: you can VARY the Allied and Enemy troops to make some missions HARDER than others! That's freaken cool AND strategic... Amazing replayability!
Not to mention. Each round a completely new unit or structure or both may be added. By the players design. In fact, USC's (Unit Statistics Card) will return for this set up. Where players know their technology limits. And they choose from their avaiable USC. The pieces are momentarily generic black/white anyway.

questccg wrote:
Note #8: The map idea (4 cards tiled together in a folio) remind me of an older Military Game called "Airborne Ranger". At the start of the mission, you FLY over the territory and you can get a feel for the terrain and plot out your mission a bit.

Here's a screenshot of what the aerial view looked like (of course you could use hexes ... That's not a constraint):

BTW you can click on the image to get a bit bigger size. You see there are SMALL and LARGE BUNKERS, WALLS, HILLS, TRENCHES, MINES, TREES, etc. Sort of like this but with the troop information (1 to 8 maybe???)

For the map? I certainly have some idea's now.

questccg wrote:
You could probably ignore the content of this Screenshot and focus on how YOU want to present your own data on the map (and it can be different for each mission/scenario). Sometimes there are bunkers, sometimes not... Just to vary things a bit... Sometime you battle in a shambles of a city so there are demolished buildings and walls around, etc. Just see what you can come up with... I'm sure you'll be able to think up a lot!

I got plenty of RTS to get my inspiration from.
Warzone2100 is the main drive force here for the unit/structure designs that players will do.
Starcraft for the complexity of missions.
C&C for the sci-fi idea and story I guess.
KKnD for resource managment, I certainly need to have limited resources for the players. IF I do a base for the attacking player.
I do not want to copy Warfare Incoporated.

questccg
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Another alternative

X3M wrote:
...I got plenty of RTS to get my inspiration from.

Have you seen MechCommander series too? A different source of inspiration. You can capture enemy mechs, repair your forces in Repair Bays (as the mission progresses), it's like divided into separate obstacles with all kinds of cool combat:

Enjoy researching that series too... It is more COMBAT-focused than resource gathering Video Games like the Warcraft and Starcraft series! MechCommander is based on FASA's Mech Warrior series so there are familiar mechs too! (And weapons like PPCs -- Gotta love those Particle Cannons)

X3M
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Resource managment

A long time ago. I had written something about different ways of resource managment.

The ones which are best for board games are those that are fixed. Meaning that if a certain situation is met. The resources come in.

https://www.bgdf.com/forum/game-creation/mechanics/lot-economic-choices-...

Management that work great as default or as mission material:
- Fixed money
- Domination
- Resource nodes
- Independable harvesters
- Scaveging

Typical RTS resource managment. That is just awefull for board games:
- Refinery with moving harvesters
- Refinery with lined up harvesters
Yes, the one with lined up harvesters is awefull as well. Because it can easily be broken and it requires a lot of work to be fixed. Even the moving harvester works better these days. Because we still use the drop off range. It is simply very high for the best harvesters out there. Also making the lining up better. These 2 managments will be at one of the end stages when the map has grown big.

***

I also noticed that around that time, I was adressing the same subjects like USC and even the old missions started back then.
Nowadays, I will simply go for a story line approach. There is no need to catalog the missions in a mathematical way. Trying to get something of everything doesn't work, I learned that much.

Still, I need to have good rules regarding the design choices of the armies. This is going to be for the players. So every game can have complete different factions.

Then again. Perhaps I should not design the missions as a campaign. I did that before in Starcraft, I got up to 9. But combining a story and new units is pretty damn hard, I tell you that. So perhaps I should make the missions individual? And simply have complete different maps every time? That would make more sense. Because then the players can randomize more at the beginning for fun.

So.... No Story then?
Which would kill of this topic.

X3M
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1 mission stories?

Or maybe expanding over 2 or 3 missions. IDK....

Either way. The original idea with the whole campaign was.
The players add new units and structures by choice to the faction over the missions. This is completely random. But once chosen, it cannot be changed.

The mission entitles the players to add something new.
The technology sets the bar.

It is at this point that I realized that balance can be an issue. We don't want a snowball happening. Thus one player being the attacker all the time. It is better to have a back and forth, like in any RTS game. The faction should stick with one player. Meaning that you can't sabotage the opponents faction. And last: the factions need to be guarded in balance. If one of the players decides to pick something bad to add. Then it is their own fault (or smart move). Instead of sabotaging your opponent, the losing player could get a bit more technology development instead.

The following statistics are linked:
- Armor tier A and Damage tier B
- Armor tier B and Damage tier A.

If one player has a higher tier of damage, the other player automatically follows with a higher tier of armor.
Example: If player A has a lot of tanks with anti infantry weapons. Then player B has a lot of infantry with anti tank weapons.

Start
Both players start with the following limits:
- Armor and Damage tier 1
- Range and Speed 2
- Damage multiplier 2 for tier 1
- Health is fixed at 5x Armor

Other statistics:
- Accuracy can be anywhere between 1 and 6.
- All other weapon adjustments are not allowed (yet). These are mission based. For example, player B can get the artillery ability in mission 5.

Everything is to be tracked on a technology card.

Development
- The losing player decides if the next tier of armor or damage is opened. The winning player will follow with the linked statistic. This does not mean that the players are forced to choose something with the new tier. This especially happens when tier 3 or 4 is reached and skipped by one of the players. They might get more fodder instead, etc. (RPS effects, what can I say :) )
Sometimes 2 tiers are added, to one or both statistics.
- The winning player decides first on applying a point to either range or speed. If 2 points where added it could be to its range and speed. R2S4, R3S3 or R2S4 are then 3 possible outcomes. Each mission will have a maximum on the development though. And it can be that only 1 or even no points are allowed.
The player who lost will take note and picks after for its own faction.
- The winning player picks on of the damage types it owns and adds 1 multiplier to it. Once again, it doesn't have to be chosen. A player could prepare for something very strong, it would feel as real research. Flamebased weapons are such examples. After the winning player, the losing player can pick its own multiplier. But, it can now be stored instead, for a future tier.
- Health has now an offset of -1/+1. So either 4x or 6x the armor is allowed.

Later missions and/or alternatives

- Not sure about health development. Going down should go linear with the number of missions. Having that 1 health bastard in the last mission is funny. When the 3 health units appear, the concussive attacks should be introduced. Seeing as how these are more effective against the lowest healths.

- Air and sub. These types are introduced by the players choice. Somewhere halfway the campaign would be best.
If both are to be introduced, then on the thirds of the campaign. One type will simply be more frequent.

- A certain mission will allow the players to choose an terrain ignoring weapon. They choose from: Spread/Arc/Flow/Seekers. Not sure with how many missions I can come up with that these weapons would be great. But everytime when the terrain requires them, a new one could be added.

- Ballistic weapons (Artillery) and X-ray. These 2 are the big brothers of the terrain ignoring weapons. Maybe I put them in the same category. But they ignore 3D effects as well. Thus they are more advanced. Again, mission based.

-
Velocity altered weapons
Turn altered weapons
Specific weapons
Explosive weapons
Chain reaction weapons
Cooldown and Charging
All these get a turn in being applied at a certain point. But seeing as how these are advanced mechanics. Players will not meet them in the first campaign.
Except for Cooldown, this one is simple to grasp. And one unit or defence structure will gain this ability.

- Minimum range
Will be added somewhere at the end. Seeing as how only then the longest ranges will be applied. And this is not a technology development. But simply part of the USC. So it could happen for almost every unit and defence structure.

questccg
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TL;DR - But I will read it over the weekend...

I am promising to read over the last two (2) responses from @X3M. I'm not really in the mood today and I have other commitments tomorrow (Family B-day Party). So maybe on Saturday or Sunday afternoon. I promise that I will read through it... I started and then I was just "not in the right head-space"... Over the weekend for sure! Cheers.

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questccg wrote:I am promising

questccg wrote:
I am promising to read over the last two (2) responses from @X3M. I'm not really in the mood today and I have other commitments tomorrow (Family B-day Party). So maybe on Saturday or Sunday afternoon. I promise that I will read through it... I started and then I was just "not in the right head-space"... Over the weekend for sure! Cheers.

Take your time. We all do :D

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Mission 1; tldr

Getting familiar with the game.
The players start in a barren map.

The story (I am a very bad story teller):

The invaders (put faction name A here) have landed on a new world. In search of wannaobtainium. A resource that is precious in all the corners of the galaxy. In ancient past, humanity had sended a scout force to see if there was any wannaobtainium on this god forsaken world. Contact was lost with the scout force. A crew of over 1000 people...lost!
And now, 200 years later. Urth has sended a new force to see whatever happened to the scout force.
Once landed, they met humans. But they weren't all to friendly. Their culture seems to be driven on hate for Urth. They call themselves (B)

As commander of (A), it is your job to put (B) back under Urth's control. Your landing ship has deployed itself to a construction yard. It is now possible for you to create any structure that you need for your upcomming mission. As a protection force. We have included several infantry that are designed to your specifications. You can use the computer for further developments of anything you need in order to bring peace to these, by hate driven, (B).

Secure the perimeter. Then set out in order to secure any wannaobtainium that you find.

***

Obviously I will describe the following differently in the manual. With pictures and all. I am now roughly giving you an idea of the game set up.

Each player holds a USC of their first infantry unit.

The first mission starts with only 1 map part.
The construction yard of A is placed in the middle.
A resource location is only 2 hex away from this construction yard.
Right on the opposite of the construction yard will be 1 squad of infantry of A. Maximum worth of 1200.
There are infantry of B here and there on the map.
Maximum worth of 1800 in 6 squads spread over the map in every corner. The biggest squads are the closest to the squad of A.

A will have it easy with 1200. This because the most expensive infantry unit that the players can choose is worth 170. Chances are high that it is only 160. Excess resources are saved for the next mission. In case of 160, this is 80 for A.

B has to put the infantry into exactly 6 squads. If for example, these guys cost only 90. You have 3x 90 per squad. And 2 squads will have 4x 90.

Goal of A is to kill all of B and secure the wannaobtainium.
Goal of B is to kill all of A. The construction yard cannot be harmed.

When A wins, the remaining infantry remain.
When B wins, the remaining infantry remain, but will be in another spot the next mission.

I need to redesign the maps though. Seeing as how I got rid of ridges. And have ramps showing where you can go up instead.

larienna
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I read the thread in

I read the thread in diagonal. If you want to force a certain story into each scenario, you can use many techniques used in historical war games.

1. Give different objectives to both players within a specific time line.
2. Have a fixed production line up to force the players to deal with what they have.
3. Add certain restrictions/bonus to specific units.

The more restraints you have, the more story based it will be. But, the game will be less flexible, feels more scripted and more testing might be required for each specific scenario.

X3M
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larienna wrote:I read the

larienna wrote:
I read the thread in diagonal. If you want to force a certain story into each scenario, you can use many techniques used in historical war games.

1. Give different objectives to both players within a specific time line.
2. Have a fixed production line up to force the players to deal with what they have.
3. Add certain restrictions/bonus to specific units.

The more restraints you have, the more story based it will be. But, the game will be less flexible, feels more scripted and more testing might be required for each specific scenario.

I would like to have a nice balance.

Would itbe better if I offer the players a range of options instead of a technology development?

Meaning, each mission allows for a specific range of statistics. Instead of increasing the limits...
Lets say. The artillery mission doesn't trigger a big jump for any weapon range. But a minimum and maximum of what this range could be?

It does sound like a better idea. And it will help with the story line. There is more freedom in what happens next in the story line. By limiting aspects for the player choice.

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One small comment

I think if you can make a mission EASIER with the "right equipment" that could go a long way for replayability. Like the FIRST time you do a mission the odds are you are going to FAIL because you have no prior knowledge in HOW the mission plays out. Even with one (1) replay, you may improve the odds of success ... But you may need a third (3rd) or fourth (4th) replay which is great because you LEARN how to BEAT the mission.

For example, what units to choose or focus on building, what technology is beneficial, and generally the things that make PLAYING the mission EASIER!

That's cool because it adds a lot of REPLAY value in each mission if say you have to play like 4 or 5 times before you comprehend the optimal configuration and the right game play strategy. Like area traps where you get pinned down by higher firepower or trenches where grenadiers are bombing away... etc.

So I would prioritize making missions with a REAL "strategy" (way to win). And it becomes realizing through experience what is the best way to PLAY in order to BEAT the mission.

You see this is a LOT of Video Games. Not only RTS but 2D shooters too. It's all about playing and then dying, rinse & repeat! In 2D shooters it's also about LEARNING the Level where are the traps and when are there shooting frenzies, etc. So yeah, having something that can make YOUR game about PLAYING and repeated tries (obviously some missions can be harder than others) I think would ADD tremendous REPLAYABILITY.

(And yeah I will read over the other comments tomorrow). Cheers!

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Only two (2) Resources required

X3M wrote:
Typical RTS resource management. That is just awful for board games...

Okay so I have ONE (1) idea that came to mind when thinking about "Resource Management". Have TWO (2) Resources ONLY.

1. Oil extracted at a RIG (land or sea)
2. Credits produced at the REFINERY (the SALE of Refined Oil)

So no "harvesting"... Just "extracting" at some kind of RATE PER TURN. Like maybe 20 Oil Units would be a medium-sized production. Then you get to DECIDE what do you do with these 20 Oil Units. Do you use it to POWER and MAKE Vehicles or larger units... OR do you REFINE some of the Oil to earn CREDITS. Like 10 Oil Units produce like 50 Credits.

And the CREDITS allow you to RECRUIT Soldiers/Mercenaries meanwhile bigger Units require BOTH "Credits" to Build and "Oil" to Operate. But it's a one-time deal:

A. If I want to build a JEEP, I need 25 Credits and 10 Oil.

As an example, once you spend the Credits and Oil... That unit is to be produced on your NEXT turn (summoning sickness)...

Something SIMPLE like that would WORK for a "Board Game". Having TWO (2) LINKED "Resources" which requires the Player to figure out what he wants to do with his resources ... IMHO would be COOL!

That's where I am AT so far (reading)... Will continue and see what else I may figure out... Cheers.

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1 resource

No matter how it is gathered.
Only one resource is the easiest to balance.
It doesn't force players into a path.
Or the second resource isn't obsolete.

In wc2, ships cost oil. And this can be a true secondairy resource on itself.
In SC, I consider gas to be obsolete or simply a time factor.

Either way. No matter how fast we get resources. We need to have a maximum per mission if we also take remains to the next mission.
If a mission is complete, remaining resources are carried on to the next mission as being harvested.

Warzone 2100 is based on a time limit. A player could push till the end and gather the resources.

Maybe it is better to have a limit on resources per kission. And a player should simply admit losing a mission so that the opponent doesn't get more.

Also, each mission, both players should have licked their wounds if possible. By default.

questccg
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1 Resource vs. 2 LINKED Resources

X3M wrote:
No matter how it is gathered.
Only one resource is the easiest to balance.
It doesn't force players into a path.
Or the second resource isn't obsolete.

In wc2, ships cost oil. And this can be a true secondary resource on itself.
In SC, I consider gas to be obsolete or simply a time factor.

True ... but a LINKED "resource" allows for more flexibility in defining the rules to follow when it comes to selecting UNITs. I "personally" feel that two (2) Linked resources is not that hard to balance and offers up some kind of CHOICE in the selection process.

Otherwise if you ONLY want one (1) resource, it has to be CREDITS.

Nothing else will work. Why? Because Soldiers and Vehicles need to be both "obtainable" from that "resource". As such a Tank or a Grenadier all need to cost CREDITS to recruit and/or produce.

But like I said, if you have a choice to have two (2) resources, this opens up the game a bit and adds more variability and extra replay value. The Tech tree may be a bit more complex... But the only other alternative for you is PURE "credits" (the way I see it).

BTW Oil and Credits (refined oil) is NOT like SC or SC2 Vespene gas. Why because it's a SIMPLIFICATION. It's a CONVERSION from one resource to the Secondary one. Like gas, it's a question of pacing the game... With a logical influence.

What you only want to have 10 credits for a Soldier, 50 for a Tank, etc. And then you want to "perfect" the ratio from 1 Soldier compare to a Tank ... How many Soldiers can you recruit to match (think balance) with the firepower of a Tank... That's the kind of resource you are talking about???

Well then BECAUSE Oil and Credits ARE LINKED... You can always come back to 1 Resource ... But it appears like 2.

Take my example of the JEEP: 25 Credits and 10 Oil.

10 Oil = 10 Oil (primary resource)
25 Credits = +5 Oil (5x factor to refining)

And therefore the JEEP in reality COSTS 15 Oil...

Do you see what I did there??? Isn't it cool. You have 2 resources but in the end it's really 1 resource. So you are going to say, WHY have 2???

TBH to make the game SEEM more complicate and offering more choice than a mere 1 resource game. Because the 2 resources are LINKED... You have the possibility of STARTING with 1 resource (to balance) and then figure out the secondary cost (again another balance) Oil + Credits.

Like soldiers and mercenaries only cost Credits to recruit. But vehicles require both. I PERSONALLY think it looks cooler to have 2 resources even if at the SOURCE (technically) there is ONLY one resource that is used to BALANCE the game and then "converted" to make the game seem a bit more COMPLEX...

It's also a TIMING issue too... It can take LONGER to REFINE some Oil to get "Credits". Which means that you can throttle the game a bit to determine what is the BEST possible PACE of the game. Anyhow that's how I see it... Cheers!

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Furthermore...

If you have "Oil Tanks" you can "stockpile" a specific amount of "Oil". But the problem is that your "Oil Tanks" (like other building) can be attacked and destroyed. Whereas if you REFINE your Oil and produce "Credits" ... Those are ONLY numbers in your Bank... They cannot be "stolen" or destroyed...

So maybe what you want YOUR "Carry-over" to be between missions is the AMOUNT of REFINED Oil (or Credits) that you have at the end of a mission!

This means that your PRIMARY Resource being Oil MUST be BANKED (converted using a Refinery) and then those "credits" can be saved for the next mission...

That too is cool... Because the HARD part of REFINING the Oil ... Has been done. This can allow you to RAMP-UP FASTER in the next mission because of the "Credits" that you have Banked in the earlier mission!

Just another thought. Cheers.

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Another bit of Analysis for you...

Let's say (for the sake of argument) that you're the winner of Mission #1. And you have banked maybe 150 Credits. In theory, if there was only ONE (1) resource (ie. Credits), you could buy 10 JEEPs. That's using your version with ONLY one (1) resource.

There is a FLAW in that method of thinking and it means that EVERYTHING is available to the players at the VERY START of Mission #2...

The other way (having 2 Linked Resources) ... Means that while you can SPEED UP the production of your 6 JEEPs... BUT ONLY once you have collected 60 Oil ... Because a JEEP costs 25 Credits and 10 Oil.

So while you can recruit Soldiers and Mercenaries from the Get-Go... You still need to WAIT for more powerful units and again ... it creates a NICE "throttle" which means NOT everything is available RIGHT AWAY.

Enough said... It's 100% your game. I just think that this 2 Linked Resource system can be EASILY balanced and offers a NATURAL way of Throttling the game that is NOT like "another" resource. It's a transformation which is logical and makes sense in terms of Banked Credits too!

I personally like it because IT MAKES SENSE. You can't take all your Crude to the next mission. But whatever you refined and got paid for in "Credits" (which get Banked) you can easily carry-over because it's like a Balance Sheet.

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I once tried 2 to 4 different resources

The resources did have different value's. So players could only guess how much an unit is truly worth. But I am not sure if I should do this again. You see, if you have 2 resources. The first resource is often used as a pure choice. The second resource, in order to get it balanced, is a different value than the game would suggest.

The reason for this is that if you have an unit that costs both resources. These resources are kinda gathered twice as fast. 50 minerals and 50 gas is obtained in the same time as only 50 minerals. And there might be units costing 50 gas.
So, by pondering about this. I once discovered that gas is roughly 2 times the value of minerals. Meaning that 50 gas should be referred to as 25 minerals. The game however, treats this the other way around... which for me meant that gas was obsolete.

A siege tank costs 150 minerals and 100 gas in SC1. The total costs are 250 for players who don't understand the mechanics. The true value is supposed to be 350. Yet due to the game mechanics, I always had the feeling that the tank was only worth 200. The total costs would be 150 minerals and then 200 gas. But as said before, a secondary resource that only dictates time, is worth half.

If it is however, like you suggested, more worth yet the same resource. Then that too, is an option. I used to have Green, Blue, Yellow and Red Tiberian, story wise (when I was a little kid). But that is just silly :D

***

Either way...

The design can be done in such a way, that I could do this again. After all, the resources are limited. And thus, players have a true choice, regardless of the resource gathering speed.

Units 5 main statistics are:
- Armor
- Health
- Speed
- Damage
- Range

As secondary statistics:
- Multiplier
- Accuracy (no real influence)
- Any weapon modifier
- Any propulsion modifier

Seeing as how certain modifications are very detailed. I can only go for the 5 main statistics. After the body costs and weapon costs are calculated. Simple infantry cost 1 resource. Simple tanks have 2, but the secondary is much more important. Based on if the armor/health is higher than the first tier. A tier 5 with 1 health would still be like an infantry. :)
Same goes for the other statistics. If they reach a threshold. Suddenly a secondary resource would be added to the price.

The process would be complicated. All math. So I am not going to share it here unless someone is interested.

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questccg wrote:If you have

questccg wrote:
If you have "Oil Tanks" you can "stockpile" a specific amount of "Oil". But the problem is that your "Oil Tanks" (like other building) can be attacked and destroyed. Whereas if you REFINE your Oil and produce "Credits" ... Those are ONLY numbers in your Bank... They cannot be "stolen" or destroyed...

So maybe what you want YOUR "Carry-over" to be between missions is the AMOUNT of REFINED Oil (or Credits) that you have at the end of a mission!

This means that your PRIMARY Resource being Oil MUST be BANKED (converted using a Refinery) and then those "credits" can be saved for the next mission...

That too is cool... Because the HARD part of REFINING the Oil ... Has been done. This can allow you to RAMP-UP FASTER in the next mission because of the "Credits" that you have Banked in the earlier mission!

Just another thought. Cheers.


This is an option indeed. And I also can add silo's and such. But it would be for one of the 2 players. Story wise. Unless I change the entire set up of missions.

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questccg wrote: I personally

questccg wrote:

I personally like it because IT MAKES SENSE. You can't take all your Crude to the next mission. But whatever you refined and got paid for in "Credits" (which get Banked) you can easily carry-over because it's like a Balance Sheet.

While this is a good option.
We need players to realize this. So, a player needs to admit loss in an older mission.

Perhaps.... having rounds per mission?
So it is time based, just like in Warzone2100

Let's say, you have 6 rounds in mission 1 in order to complete your mission. If you succeed at round 3. You get the resources immediately for the other 3 rounds.

If the enemy is running away. While you get resources each round. The effect would be the same. You get the resources.

If the 6th round ends. And the enemy is still alive. Then the player has at least failed the mission. But the concequences aren't that bad either. All the resources are gathered. And the only thing that remains is the enemy going to the next mission.

But now that I am thinking about this more and more. Perhaps it is better to postpone the campaign. And work on smaller missions first.

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Summary so far

- Campaign missions will take rounds. This in order to regulate resource management. But also mission rewards.

- Technology is mission based. Players choose within a window of statistics. No need for a long development in order to get ranged units like artillery. Nor overkill or regulation on the development. This way the mission design also will be easier to be regulated.

- Different resources are undecided yet. But if done, only 2 resources, based on the balance between body and weapon costs.

***

Main problem atm.
Mission design in regards to player bases.
I concluded that having one player being the invader while another is a "victim". This causes a role forced on both players for the whole campaign.

What if I design a map, where both players are in the corners. And the missions are based on heading out in order to obtain something. I started googling, for reasons to go out in the open and wage war. Either way, the best start is that both players are competing invaders this time.

Economic gain
Limited Resources on the new world.
Which would be a reason to have multiple different ones. This limits players in having certain units.
And thus they become careful about it.
Still, having only 2 resources works best.
Partly a sci-fi game; so food or iron and then something good. With more, what are the resources then?

Territorial Gain
I honestly don't see how.
Maybe to set up a good chokepoint or something.
Or gain more building space.
A faster road in order to get resources back home?
This one is rather complicated.
But a high ground in the middle of the map is certainly a good one.

Religion
Perhaps gaining an ally.
Or killing same said ally.
Based on a shared goal: So not really a religion thing.
The invaders are godlike. Let's worship the ones that are nice to us.
The player might obtain in a previous mission, some enemy units. And use these to gain thrust of the local poppulation.
This also gives room to city regions.
Occupying or protecting a city could also give the player resources and/or better technology.

Revolutionary War
Aiming to get a better new unit than the opponent.
A bigger window of choosing statistics later on if you will.
Examples: Like health is allowed to be times 2.
Range can get +2
Speed can get +3

What more is possible?
The other aspects of the list are:
- Nationalism.
- Revenge.
- Civil War.
- Defensive War.
I can't think of missions in these regards.
The players are simply enemies of each other.
Sure there will be defending, but this is then due to another reason.
The civil war, nationalism and revenge don't fit at all.

X3M
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There are 3 types of military missions

observer missions;
peacekeeping missions;
peace enforcement missions.

And that just doesn't help at all for new idea's.
So I went to wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Military_operations_by_type

I continue somewhere next week.
Reading all of those.

Meanwhile...
Feel free to comment.

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Some additional thoughts

X3M wrote:
While this is a good option. We need players to realize this. So, a player needs to admit loss in an older mission.

Perhaps.... having rounds per mission?
So it is time based, just like in Warzone2100

Let's say, you have 6 rounds in mission 1 in order to complete your mission. If you succeed at round 3. You get the resources immediately for the other 3 rounds.

I would offer this advice:

1. Players play until one of them they forfeits a mission (or duel) or a player loses.

2. When a player decides that he/she lost (forfeit), the game ends there and you BANK the amount of "Credits" in his/her bank to allow him/her to CONTINUE on to the NEXT mission with some "extra" Credits to START.

3. The Winning player gets 50% of the losing Player's Credits... I'll explain WHY(!?) next.

So the idea is that the LOSING player gets an ADVANTAGE in the NEXT mission by starting with some EXTRA "Credits" and his opponent HALF that amount. The idea is to HANDICAP the winner and give the loser a better chance to start STRONG and defeat his opponent.

Something like that... Making a COMEBACK is possible and maybe winning two (2) Missions in a row is ALSO possible! It's maybe HARDER with HALF the resources (Credits) but still possible... Something REASONABLE like that...!

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The problem with what I suggested is...

Basically if there is ONLY one (1) Resource (Credits), this means at the START of the NEXT mission, that losing player has access to the ENTIRE "catalogue" of Units. Since it's only a question of "Credits" ...

But if you had BOTH "Crude" (or Oil) and Credits... (As I explained above), you'd ONLY be able at the START of the NEXT mission to RECRUIT Soldiers and Mercenaries. No vehicles or Tanks because you don't have the "Crude" (or Oil) required to build these units.

It's a bit like TRYING to avoid the Zerg-Rush in Starcraft I. The winner of the previous Mission KNOWS he/she is at a disadvantage. So they can't simply "storm the opponent" because odds are they will fail in 50% of the time (maybe more).

However the OPPOSITE is ALSO TRUE: the losing player who has an advantage is ahead of the opponent but still HOW MUCH ... It's not known. So in a way the LOSING player can protect his base from an early attack because he/she has MORE "Credits" to recruit a small defensive force to protect his camp.

So it's an ADVANTAGE but nothing too POWERFUL to ensure a victory. It's more of a WAY to ensure no "Zerg-Rush" or a more experienced player attacking his opponent prematurely ...

If I have any additional thoughts along this line... I'll let you know! Cheers.

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Production Facilities

There is a limit on the production facilities.
And players receive new units after round 1.

Of course having different production facilities offers the players all options. But every tank can be accompanied by 6 soldiers.

***

Having the losing player start with an advantage is silly.
Perhaps designing the mission in such ways that some parts of the map will be loser friendly.
For example, the map is missing 2 parts. 1 part will have additional resources. This one will be placed closer to the losing player.

Also, winning a mission might have a reward, but will also require an "upkeep" mission.
For example, keep protecting the locals. Which is harder than obtaining other resources. Sonce there are a lot of locals. And they can easily die by artillery fire etc.

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The story in a nutshell so far

The missions have an order. But also should appear at random times. Or else a player might prepare for the next mission. And have an advantage. So, the player should be punished if the preparation was false.

Either way, both players start as far away as possible from each other.

The map is going to be needing several places of interest.
Better said, the map is going to be needing several places of POSSIBLE interest.

I decided that there are 2 players who invade a planet for resources.
And 2 different locals.

One of the locals is going to have a city and some static defences. With some civilians that can't move from their homes.

The other locals have build a fortification and guard something of great interest for the players.

If resources are a goal. What if earning one, automatically means that the other player gets more of the other resource?

***

Missions that influence each other.

The locals in the city set
- First part is to steal a special hidden technology in the form of an unit. This unit will be able to steal units from the other player. Both players can aim for this. Taking over of this unit requires to have the last hit on it (as if it is destroyed)
- Second part is to actually start stealing as much units as possible from the other player. It could be a campaign ender. This mission ends when the special unit dies for real this time.
- Third part is to use the units of the other player. And attack the locals that are in a city. Once all defences are gone with the stolen units. The locals supply this player with some extra resources every round. However, if some defences are still standing. The locals will know you tried to trick them. And they will support the other player.
- Fourth part is to protect these locals. Because shooting them personally will reduce the extra resources. This is something alongside the other missions. So not really a triggered mission on itself.

The better technology set
- At random, up to 3 times (or 6?), 1 of the 6 locations is pin pointed as the next target to get technology from. You need to have the last hit on a certain target in order to gain this reward. You will only get a bigger window of choices. A die is rolled to pin point the location. A location can be used several times, so there are 6^3 possibilities here.
Taking hold of every position is a very taxing task though.

The more resources set
- At random, up to 3 times, 1 of the same 6 locations is pin pointed as the next option to get more resources from.
However, once this location becomes a resource. A 7th location is added to the list. And this location is now scrapped from the same said list. So, the whole map should have 9 points of interest. I don't know how to randomize deciding which 3 should wait though.
Not sure if I should do more resources of 1 type. I need to create a new topic for that.

More build space
- There will be multiple plateau's that are higher than the rest of the map. The middle contains a "lost" construction yard that can be conquered. "destroying" it is a take over. After that, it can be destroyed normally by the other player. In the mean time, the player can start adding defences and production facilities to that place.
I aim to have 3 plateau's. So in total, there can be 5 bases on the entire map.

The other locals
At random, 3 points of interest. Should be protected by some fortification. The players surely need to siege these places. So, some missions are harder. The static defences always shoot every round, once.
So, the only thing that the players need to do is to see if the static defences are able to shoot on their enemy. First come, first serve.
Usage of fodder is also an option.
Not sure if this should be a mission on itself though. Maybe the other locals have a certain attribute that also can be the reward. Simply destroying the last or the main local. Ehm.... Perhaps some sort of AI that can be scrapped up for the reward??
It will be harder to get to it. But this isn't really different than other missions tbh.

***

I think, there are enough missions now, right? Now to work on the map in order to make it happen. And of course on the details of each mission.

When using dice, the points of interest have several preparations. So, I mentioned 9 in total. While players roll for 6. So how to determine the order of points of interest? They will be indicated on the map with a number token. Should I go for the bag again?

Players build up slowly.
Then they get a mission until it is finished by random.
I was thinking about cards.
The main goal is simply to annihilate the enemy completely. The missions can be done to slowly increase the leverage.

The mission cards so far:
- Locals in the City (3 times)
- Better technology (3 or 6 times)
- More resources (3 times)
- More build space on higher ground (3 times)

So, 12 (or 15) mission cards. If you get a certain mission card. A new mission cannot be drawn.
Eventually the last card can be predicted. So, perhaps a limit on how many missions the game holds?

Maybe the trilogy mission of the locals in the city cannot be completed.
Add more cards of any mission?
Limit the missions to 12. Yet there are 24 cards?

Suggestions?

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You wanted BALANCE

X3M wrote:
...Having the losing player start with an advantage is silly.
Perhaps designing the mission in such ways that some parts of the map will be loser friendly...

Well you were the one who suggested BANKING a resource for the NEXT mission. So if your Credits could be carried over from Mission #1 to Mission #2... I figure ONLY the "Loser" should get all his EXTRA "Credits" and the Victor of the previous Mission should get 50%.

Now what you can vary is 50% of his OWN BANK... or 50% of the Loser's Bank.

This may not even be a penalty because the Victor could be VERY FAR AHEAD of his opponent such that 50% penalty is about the same amount of "Credits". So this evens out the playing field in the NEXT mission.

And I don't think it's SILLY... It's a way to BALANCE the game to ensure that the Leading Player is NOT always AHEAD of his opponent. Kind of a recuperating mechanism. To give the Losing Player more of a chance in the NEXT mission.

Anyhow does this seem REAL??? No because MOST games like SC 1 & 2, don't allow you to carryover any resources (0 Credits at the start of each mission and/or level). Or you start a mission with "X" resources and it is predefined by the mission and both players get the same amount.

It's just an IDEA. If you don't like it... I'll move-on.

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questccg wrote: It's just an

questccg wrote:

It's just an IDEA. If you don't like it... I'll move-on.
Bad day?

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Discarding the whole carrying on to the next misson

The whole campaign is continues. I think this works best.
Players have a mission to complete. But stalling a mission might give the player that has an edge. Slowly but certainly a greater edge.

And the "easier" for the losing player still stands. That is, the next mission should be easier for the "losing player". But seeing as how things are chaotic. I don't know how.

I think I have thought of someting. Like conquering a resource. But it can die down and removed again. Protecting the resource costs resources too. That would be the city of locals that I mentioned.

Another balancing effect is that the player who conquered more resources. Needs to head out much farther in the map. In order to protect these. Perhaps having a position that was easy for one player and hard for the other. Simply not being chosen again?? I have this fact at least for the resources.

Also, if a resource being placed further away from a base. I could make it so that these give less resources. So the benefit of having these locations. Are exponential harder. The bonus is less and you need to send reinforcements over a greater distance.

The missions aren't being too specific. It is more of an allround campaign. Where missions only give rewards for making it easier for the player to win.

The special technology missions are certainly being in the middle line of the map. The city has to be in the exact middle. The special unit has to be somewhere in the middle as well. And one of the plateaus also has to be in the middle. Of which, one is surrounded by sea.

Eventually, the other player needs to be defeated. Regardless of the missions.
And some keypoints, once defeated. Are dead for the rest of the campaign.
I have this for the city, the special unit and the construction yards on the plateaus. Perhaps the same can be done for the resources?

In regards of specific missions. I think I need to put these in a total different "package".

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