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Dice Balance, Min/Max - Ensure Player can succeed

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Sun, 07/10/2022 - 15:57
jbmoyer
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I'm working on a concept for Quick War Combat 9 card game. Player will control a squad of soliders. That squad has a decreasing Attack value based on surviving soliders. ex: 3 soliders 12 -> 10 -> 8. 12 is their attack value if all are alive, 10 if two and 8 if one.

to resolve combat with an encounter, you roll 2d6, add attack value, compare to the Encounter value, >= is hit on encounter.

The challenge I have is how do you balance the attack values so the player wont ever be in a situation where they cant roll to hit? ex: encounter is 21, so 2d6+8 assuming roll of 12 the total would be 20. a 20 CANT hit the 21 encounter

with dice odds a 12 is rare, but really applies to other results as well. How do you ensure your players are not stuck? What kind of outs can you add to the game?

I have a good game concept (I think) but the number/dice odds are killing me :)

thanks

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Sun, 07/10/2022 - 17:16
#1
X3M
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Hello

Interesting challenge you got there.

Not sure how you get to that 21.

Have a clear goal of the lowest chance
Check out anydice.com
It offers a lot, once you know how to work with it.

This is what you tested:
https://anydice.com/program/113c2

If you work with thresholds, then you need to use the tab "at least".
Getting 12+8 gives a chance of only 2.8%. This is very low. But maybe still workable for you.

By knowing the chances. And if you want the players to have a chance of for example 1/6th for the worst situation. You observe the table. And if you look at 18, which is 10+8, you see a chance of 16,7%. Knowing this, you have an upper bound of 17 for the targets.

But this is just an example.

***

Now... I am assuming that the opponent has rolled that 21 prior. And it is up to the player to beat this 21.
If not, ignore this part.

In a sense, you always want the second roll to have a chance in beating whatever the result of the first roll is?

Not sure if you are willing to add dice. But you could give the player an option to reduce the addition, while adding more dice.
In many games, you take higher risks for better results.

Let's say, the die can add 1 to 6.
The cost could be that the +8 is now +6.
The highest result can be 18+6=24
Simply don't allow the first player roll more than 2 dice. So the highest score is always beatable.

If the first player rolled 12+12=24. Also have the rule that equal ammounts result in the second player winning.

Cheers, X3M

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Sun, 07/10/2022 - 18:34
#2
questccg
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Let me explain how I think you CAN FIX this problem.

jbmoyer wrote:
I'm working on a concept for Quick War Combat 9 card game. Player will control a squad of soliders. That squad has a decreasing Attack value based on surviving soliders. ex: 3 soliders 12 -> 10 -> 8. 12 is their attack value if all are alive, 10 if two and 8 if one.

to resolve combat with an encounter, you roll 2d6, add attack value, compare to the Encounter value, >= is hit on encounter.

12 and you need to roll a 12 with 2d6s ... Is not very probable.

jbmoyer wrote:
The challenge I have is how do you balance the attack values so the player wont ever be in a situation where they cant roll to hit? ex: encounter is 21, so 2d6+8 assuming roll of 12 the total would be 20. a 20 CANT hit the 21 encounter

with dice odds a 12 is rare, but really applies to other results as well. How do you ensure your players are not stuck? What kind of outs can you add to the game?

Again 21 with an 2d6 + 8 is impossible. But instead of all of this frustration and agony, keep it simple.

For every Value, there is a corresponding Bonus.

Like take your fist example: 12 -> 10 -> 8. 12 is three soldiers and each soldier has a +2 Bonus value. So it's 12 + 6 -> 10 + 4 -> 8 + 2. Rolling with 2d6 + Bonus => 18 (12), 14 (10), 10 (8).
=
So you can have a RULE "Soldier" have a +2 Bonus Attack. SIMPLE.

Now let's examine your second example: 2d6+8 < 21. This is correct. But let's for argument say this is a Grenadier. For each Grenadier you have a +4 Bonus value. So then we would have 12 + 12 -> 10 + 8 -> 8 + 4. Rolling then is 2d6 + Bonus => 24, 18, 12.

You can continue to apply this same method by TWEAKING the units and bonuses. Obviously you can also think about introducing a THIRD (3rd) dice into the mix as you add more units. 12 + 12 = 24 is a bit of a PEAK for 2 dice TBH.

Anyhow feel free to use, adapt or ignore this methodology! I'm just showing how you can advance the method to make for stronger units with higher attack values. Best!

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Sun, 07/10/2022 - 19:33
#3
let-off studios
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Possible Options

Here are a couple methods you may be interested in exploring.

  • A "natural 12" allows a bonus to their combat value. Might be an automatic hit. Might allow a player to roll again and add that to their value.
  • Mitigators. An old-skool game that wanted to allow players to have a chance against the luck of the dice roll is Zombies!!! They addressed this by having one-use Bullet Tokens. Discard a Bullet Token to increase your current die result by 1. There were ways to gain more Bullet Tokens through exploring the game map. You might allow gaining more Tokens like this each time the player's units enter a new area, whenever their die roll results in doubles, or some other method. You might want to explore the idea that the squad enters combat with a certain number of these Tokens, and once they're used, they're gone until the end of the match/scenario.
  • Opposing Results. Dice are thrown for all opposing sides in combat, and the side with the highest roll is the winner. They might have the least losses, their opponent might suffer damage equal to the difference between the die results for each side, and so on.

Personally speaking, I'd prefer a game that allowed something like Bullet Tokens that were periodically regenerated through player actions. But I don't know much about the rest of your game, so maybe they won't help much.

Hopefully some of this is useful. :)

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Sun, 07/10/2022 - 19:38
#4
questccg
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Also ...

There is another alternative which is SIMILAR to what I proposed but would require more dice.

For example: Soldiers: 12 (3d6 + 9), 10 (2d6 + 6), 8 (1d6 + 3).

I realize that I'm basing it on YOUR values... For the Soldiers. Which shows that 9 > 8 but only winning roll is a 5 or 6. Tough rolling.

You've got to work with you numbers... I'm not the Game's Designer. But you should be able to work out reasonable numbers and add to them Bonuses to make the rolls more probable (in terms of probability).

I've tried to do the best that I can. It's just I'm working with YOUR example figures ... May need a bit of work, but you get the idea.

Cheers.

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Sun, 07/10/2022 - 20:05
#5
jbmoyer
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thank you, let me give more

X3M, thank you, let me give more background. The 21 comes from an "encounter" think solo game, you flip a card, its a tank with a 21. You have to beat it (21) to progress.

I like you add dice for benefit, but have a negative as well....

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Sun, 07/10/2022 - 20:06
#6
jbmoyer
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let-off studios wrote:Here

let-off studios wrote:
Here are a couple methods you may be interested in exploring.

  • A "natural 12" allows a bonus to their combat value. Might be an automatic hit. Might allow a player to roll again and add that to their value.
  • Mitigators. An old-skool game that wanted to allow players to have a chance against the luck of the dice roll is Zombies!!! They addressed this by having one-use Bullet Tokens. Discard a Bullet Token to increase your current die result by 1. There were ways to gain more Bullet Tokens through exploring the game map. You might allow gaining more Tokens like this each time the player's units enter a new area, whenever their die roll results in doubles, or some other method. You might want to explore the idea that the squad enters combat with a certain number of these Tokens, and once they're used, they're gone until the end of the match/scenario.
  • Opposing Results. Dice are thrown for all opposing sides in combat, and the side with the highest roll is the winner. They might have the least losses, their opponent might suffer damage equal to the difference between the die results for each side, and so on.

Personally speaking, I'd prefer a game that allowed something like Bullet Tokens that were periodically regenerated through player actions. But I don't know much about the rest of your game, so maybe they won't help much.

Hopefully some of this is useful. :)

ahh yes, interesting options. thank you. a nat 6 or a special number per solider is interesting. I dont have both sides rolling to minimize rolling, but may need to add it.

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Sun, 07/10/2022 - 20:09
#7
jbmoyer
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questccg wrote:There is

questccg wrote:
There is another alternative which is SIMILAR to what I proposed but would require more dice.

For example: Soldiers: 12 (3d6 + 9), 10 (2d6 + 6), 8 (1d6 + 3).

I realize that I'm basing it on YOUR values... For the Soldiers. Which shows that 9 > 8 but only winning roll is a 5 or 6. Tough rolling.

You've got to work with you numbers... I'm not the Game's Designer. But you should be able to work out reasonable numbers and add to them Bonuses to make the rolls more probable (in terms of probability).

I've tried to do the best that I can. It's just I'm working with YOUR example figures ... May need a bit of work, but you get the idea.

Cheers.

your right the odds are super low that is what I was trying to figure out how to balance. Adding more dice could help. thank you

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Mon, 07/11/2022 - 07:02
#8
X3M
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What are your other maximums?

You mentioned that a tank might have 21 as target value.
But what is the maximum value you plan to have in your game?
And also, what is the minimum value that you plan?

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Mon, 07/11/2022 - 08:57
#9
jbmoyer
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X3M wrote:You mentioned that

X3M wrote:
You mentioned that a tank might have 21 as target value.
But what is the maximum value you plan to have in your game?
And also, what is the minimum value that you plan?

exactly, I think you hit the nail on the head. I need to look at dice, modifiers and determine the min/max, right? that would be the only way to ensure the player doesnt come against an unbeatable, right?

I like the mitigation options people provided, for sure helps think through additional options.

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Mon, 07/11/2022 - 12:02
#10
X3M
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2 ways

Well, the answer to the question can go 2 ways.

Either decided on the value's of the cards first.
Then think of the combat dice.

Or decide on the combat dice first.
Then simply see what the limits of the cards has to be.

A simple choice. But it can have tremendous concequences to how a game might develop.
Seeing how you stated your question first. I assumed you already decided on the cards first.

And one has to be careful not to end up in a vicious cycle. Where you want something on both sides, the cards AND the dice.
moreso, if one thinks about future expansions or such. This happens on the cards themselves sooner than the dice.

Every option that you deem valid. I suggest testing them. And take notes of the results. Also, keep in mind if the downtime isn't too long. And that the replay factor is high, in other words, the fun of the game.

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Mon, 07/11/2022 - 12:44
#11
questccg
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I agree with Ramon 100%

@X3M says it true: either you make provisions for the dice (count and type -- like polyhedral and such) or you ensure that the dice stay the same and then it's the cards that vary and give the game its balance.

But @X3M is correct is saying "playtesting" will help you iron out the balance. There is no better way that to TEST and figure out where you need to make corrections and where the game is sound.

It's not like we invent this stuff... We (all of us) go through the SAME process and are forced to fix things that we thought we're good (in theory) but sometimes don't work in practice.

Cheers!

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Mon, 07/11/2022 - 12:55
#12
X3M
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questccg wrote:It's not like

questccg wrote:
It's not like we invent this stuff... We (all of us) go through the SAME process and are forced to fix things that we thought we're good (in theory) but sometimes don't work in practice.
Cheers!

Like my HnR issue. :)
I am doing a massive playtest. The same game, over and over atm.

All I can do, is also advice to make a good plan before you start.
Who knows, you might stumble on something good during your testing.

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Mon, 07/11/2022 - 20:03
#13
jbmoyer
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questccg wrote:It's not like

questccg wrote:
It's not like we invent this stuff... We (all of us) go through the SAME process and are forced to fix things that we thought we're good (in theory) but sometimes don't work in practice.

Cheers!

I'm thankful for your advice, dont get me wrong. I came up with the concept, then grabbed a few index cards to slap out a prototype. Right away it hit me, the numbers dont work, need a plan

Here is a pic of my first draft, actually slightly modified based on the original "21" comment. The idea is that the EV is fixed on the Encounter cards, you have to roll >= to hit. The problem is two fold, if there is one Solider left (8) it would have been impossible to roll 2d6 and get to 21. The second issue is if all soliders are alive, but they are facing the Machine Gun Nest, then the soliders auto-hit (9). so its a balance for min and max. I guess there is no formula, I need to tinker, playtest to figure it out.

you both got me thinking of other options, 4+ hits a tank, 3+ hits a solider etc, similar to games like Memoir 44 where Dice Face Types hit, not addition. also thinking of doing combos, 2, 3s hit a solider, 3, 5's etc...

thank you for the advice!

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Mon, 07/11/2022 - 23:15
#14
let-off studios
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Dice Sets = Use With Caution

jbmoyer wrote:
[...]also thinking of doing combos, 2, 3s hit a solider, 3, 5's etc...
If you want to experiment with this kind of system, I suggest you have a look at an old dice/tile game called When Darkness Comes. Personally, I felt the dice system a bit cumbersome and while I enjoyed the theme and some of the content, the game mechanics fell flat for me and I didn't stick with the game long.

I felt coming up with the different Poker hands of dice to be off-putting, for whatever reason. I can't articulate it very well beyond that, just that I was hoping for a simpler dice system with - for example - target numbers instead of patterns to gauge success. Things felt more complex than they needed to be.

Here's the BGG link to When Darkness Comes:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3801/when-darkness-comes

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Tue, 07/12/2022 - 10:27
#15
questccg
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World Gymnastics Tour (WGT)

let-off studios wrote:
...I felt coming up with the different Poker hands of dice to be off-putting, for whatever reason. I can't articulate it very well beyond that, just that I was hoping for a simpler dice system with - for example - target numbers instead of patterns to gauge success. Things felt more complex than they needed to be.

Here's the BGG link to When Darkness Comes...

Funny when you mentioned this I automatically thought of World Gymnastics Tour one of my previous designs. But instead of When Darkness Comes, where you perform Poker Hand with the dice... WGT was about using all kinds of dice for artistry all the while maintaining a Yahtzee type of dice rolling. So patterns of dice but not Poker. And there would be Custom D6s of different colors and difficulties (for the moves of the gymnast) and a special Polyhedral for some artistic "Flair".

The reason that I abandoned this project (WGT) was not because of no interest to develop the game further... I rather liked the concept. But instead it was an issue of "financing": it would cost a lot of monies to get a Photographer and the Gymnasts or models (which ever) to make a photoshoot... That was the REAL challenge... Yeah it could have been a COOL GAME for sure.

But not being (or knowing how) to take the pictures of the Athletes and such just put that entire project ON-HOLD!

In WGT the idea was a SEQUENCE of values you are trying to ROLL. You ROLL ALL the dice (including a polyhedral if present) and you LOCK dice to different steps or maneuvers in the apparatus. You then have a certain amount of rolls and each roll you try, lowers your score by a certain amount up until you complete the SEQUENCE. It was a VERY CLEVEL design... I mean you start with a perfect score, get 3 rolls to lock-in as many dice (and get a perfect store if you match all), otherwise you start losing points for each additional dice roll... Something like that...

I really LIKED that DESIGN ... But having no way to move it forward, I put it on the "Back-burner"...

Just sharing a similar concept and how I was planning to use a SEQUENCE of dice and dice rolling to PLAY such a kind of "dice game".

Cheers!

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Tue, 07/12/2022 - 10:40
#16
questccg
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Like I said I haven't worked on that design IN FOREVER!

But I wanted to explain a bit more (I was really liking this design):

A> You had a SEQUENCE like: "3" D6, "4" D4, "2" D6, "2" D6.

B> This means you roll 3D6s and 1D4.

C> Let's say you roll 3, 1, 2, 3... That means you would LOCK "3" and "2". And be left with 2 dice: "4" D4 and last "2" D6.

D> You roll 3, 2... That means you LOCK "2". And know only left with the FLAIR dice (D4).

E> You try to roll the 1D4 and get a "3" again... 3 tries and that is it... Now you let's say you rolled a "2" D4 (on your 4th Roll). You would deduct 4 - 2 = 0.2 x 2 (because it's the FLAIR die so DOUBLE and a percentile) from 10 points. So you would have 9.6 score so far.

F> Now let's say you roll the 1D4 and get a "4"... DONE you've completed the SEQUENCE and that apparatus with a score of "9.6"... Pretty decent. You had some good rolls and even though the FLAIR dice tripped you up a bit, you still manage to complete a GOOD if not GREAT routine. 9.6/10 is pretty GREAT!

Anyways that's kinda how the game was going to EVOLVE. But again the models, the photographer, etc. TOO COSTLY. Maybe some time in the future who knows!?

Note #1: This is a NEAT design... It uses "Dice Pooling" another mechanic which I have not used in any of my OTHER games... But I figured I'd design something DIFFERENT and girls gymnastics sounded like a really COOL theme. And then when I came up with the SEQUENCING ... It all sort just fit together perfectly ... Except when it came to models and photography!

Cheers!

Note #2: I also had plans to use custom dice to vary the probabilities based on the color of EACH die... That was yet another aspect of this design that had so much potential. I mean the Dice Pooling is COOL and the theme is neat for girls too (Gymnastics) and the way the scoring is handled is pretty intuitive and simple all the while being somewhat realistic.

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Tue, 07/12/2022 - 10:59
#17
X3M
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Shifting the balance

If you are worried by the chances too low. You could also try keeping the highest roll and re-roll the other dice.

If you keep the highest die for 2d6 and re-roll the lowest.
The chances look like this:
https://anydice.com/program/29d74

Having 3d6 and then re-rolling 2 dice looks like this:
https://anydice.com/program/29d75

Having 3d6, re-rolling 2 dice, then re-rolling the last die:
https://anydice.com/program/29d77

If there is any other mechanic you want help with. Let me know, this is good practise for me too.

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