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Everything boring about boring games

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The Magician
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Some months ago I played the game "Clue" with my girl friend and mom. It had been many many years since I had touched that game. I found it was just as boring as it always was. You can find out information very quickly without asking anybody, just by paying attention to other players questions and behavior. I won the game each time. I hardly even had to leave one room to find out all I needed to know. Why are crapy games like this so popular when there are so many better ones on the market today? And way are most of the classic games on the mass-market have blahhhh de blas frikin blah "themes". I have one educated guess: the mass-majority are empty.

Anybody want to compile what not to do in board game design here in this topic?

The Magician
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Magician, I think the answer

Magician,
I think the answer you are looking for is that american culture is like that: "empty" and "sameness".

The Magician
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The Magician

The Magician wrote:
Magician,
I think the answer you are looking for is that american culture is like that: "empty" and "sameness".

Oh, yes I see that too.

jpneok
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Ouch. I always had a hard

Ouch. I always had a hard time with Clue, keeping track of all the other players information as well as mine, but I never claimed to be a genius. But I agree Clue and a lot of games (board, card, etc) still have a boringness to them, especially when you get into a rhythm or play them enough times in a row in a short time.

In spite of the idea that sameness is boring, paradoxically, I feel that too much variety or randomness (such as attacking in RISK) can make a game boring, as well, but not enough can DEFINITELY do that as well - I'm sure as with all other game design considerations, it's not a matter of whether you have a certain element but how much of it, ie, whether you are able to cipher out just the right amount, the harmonious balance of too much and too little.

The Magician
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Well, first offf, in clue if

Well, first offf, in clue if you happen to be dealt a lot of rooms. Lets say there are only three rooms you don't know about. Say one of those is the "Hall" and you go there, there is a good chance that it is the mystery room. And in fact when you go to the hall, question about it first because you are close to figuring out the rooms anyway. And if you figure the rooms out early on it saves you haveing to move around the board. So you go to the hall and every player sais "No, I don't have it". If no one has it, then it's the hall and you can now check off the rest of the rooms. Now you get to do the rest of your work in one spot, while the rest of the players progress is delayed by them having to move around the board. However you may not have so much weapons and people checked off, you don't have to move anywhere. Plus, there are ways to tell by paying attention to other players that are dead giveaways. If you don't have the wrench, and everyone else is asking about the wrench, guess what?! I never liked that aspect of the game. Once you discover these things, than forever the game is too easy. It always feels stale.

Daniel Yokomizo
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The Magician wrote:Anybody

The Magician wrote:
Anybody want to compile what not to do in board game design here in this topic?

We had one of those some time ago.

brisingre
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My List

The Magician wrote:
Magician,
I think the answer you are looking for is that american culture is like that: "empty" and "sameness".

Well, yes. Also stupidity. Most Americans can't play chess, much less a complex boardgame.

As far as Clue goes, I've thought for a while that, of popular children's games, it was one of the better. Life is probably the worst offender (no strategy at all) followed by Monopoly (very little strategy, and takes a bloody year, which I don't mind in a fun game, but it isn't.) Clue gets more interesting if you play it with smart people, because people start bluffing. People don't appreciate that you can ask questions involving cards you have to throw people off the scent.

As for what not to do?

(This is a miss of genuine design flaws and pet peeves)

-Too many chance elements.
-"Fixed" for one player
-Kingmaker Effect (My favorite game, Twilight Imperium, has a very bad one, but there is enough strategy elsewhere in the game that it doesn't kill the game, and my group has gotten better at avoiding it)
-Totally Unbalanced (Forgivable under the right circumstances)
-Big Components you don't use (Pirates Cove is guilty of this. That board could be about a quarter of that size. Of course, it's pretty and helps the theme a tone, so it can be fully forgiven. If that board were ugly, it would be a real problem)
-"Mop-up Ending" In Risk, for instance, after you effectively win, it takes about half an hour to claim victory.
-Linear Tracks (Monopoly, Life, Sorry, and just about every other children's game)
-Many players without the ability to form effective alliances. This doesn't happen much (I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, actually) but it makes me angry whenever it happens.
-Pieces that fall over (DAMN YOU NAZGUL!)
-Regions too small to accommodate the units that will go in them (Again, War of the Ring does this.)
-Very long setup time (If your game has one, there's nothing you can do about it. However, it's always a pain when I see it. At least include multiple copies of the starting unit placements so all the players can see them at once.)
-Bad Art (Or art in a style that doesn't fit the theme. Never a gamebreaker, but still, please don't.)

larienna
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Payday

I played pay day recently, it's almost a 0 strategy game (you can decide to buy or not). Some say that for kids it's OK, but still I rather have a simple game which allow you to take decisions rather than a game that gives you no decisions.

I think the original objective was to plan where you money was going which again might help the kids plan their budget. The problem is that there is no such feeling in that game. You cannot plan ahead because everything is random. SO you just pay the bills you have to pay and that's it.

ReneWiersma
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I actually like Clue. It's

I actually like Clue. It's one of the better mass-market games, one I'd actually like to play every now and then. It's way better than Monopoly and Risk, mostly because it's much shorter and less random than either game. The movement mechanic could have been better. It sucks if you can't move to another room because you roll to low, but even this is something you can plan around.

I don't agree that strategy in Clue is as easy as you describe, at least not against thinking opponents. It's pretty tricky asking questions that extract the most information from your opponents while giving away as little as possible about your own set of cards.

rtwombly
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ReneWiersma wrote:I actually

ReneWiersma wrote:
I actually like Clue. It's one of the better mass-market games, one I'd actually like to play every now and then. It's way better than Monopoly and Risk, mostly because it's much shorter and less random than either game. The movement mechanic could have been better. It sucks if you can't move to another room because you roll to low, but even this is something you can plan around.

I don't agree that strategy in Clue is as easy as you describe, at least not against thinking opponents. It's pretty tricky asking questions that extract the most information from your opponents while giving away as little as possible about your own set of cards.


There are also multiple editions of Clue that expand on the strategic options.

But to get back to the original question, relatively simple, "boring" games are popular because

a) not everybody thinks they are boring
b) people play games to have fun

Your mileage may vary, but most people are quite content with playing a game to which they don't really have to pay that much attention. Most of their enjoyment comes from socializing with their fellow players, who can be anyone, not limited to people who are good at games. Games with lots of random elements appeal to people who have to go to work in the morning. Clue is a step up from the roll-and-move games, so appeals to a crossover crowd, who want a bit more of an intellectual challenge, but not a University-level Exam.

The lesson for designers is, if you can't fit your rules on the inside of a 12"x24" box cover, you're probably not going to appeal to the masses. That's okay so long as you're not taking out a second mortgage to finance your latest self-publishing effort.

kungfugeek
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thanks for bridging the gap

brisingre wrote:
The Magician wrote:
Magician,
I think the answer you are looking for is that american culture is like that: "empty" and "sameness".

Well, yes. Also stupidity. Most Americans can't play chess, much less a complex boardgame.

You'll never believe this, but some Americans can actually read, and some of them read bgdf on a regular basis. Amazing, I know, but true.

brisingre
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This is true

I'm one of them. I just have a fairly low opinion of the general public in this country (maybe the world, I don't know that much about other places.) I'm not slamming all Americans, I'm saying that most of us are pretty dimwitted and can only handle games like Monopoly.

kungfugeek
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brisingre wrote:I'm one of

brisingre wrote:
I'm one of them. I just have a fairly low opinion of the general public in this country (maybe the world, I don't know that much about other places.) I'm not slamming all Americans, I'm saying that most of us are pretty dimwitted and can only handle games like Monopoly.

Replace "can" with "are willing to" and I might agree with you. But every American Monopoly-head I've introduced to designer games has come to love them, once introduced. I think the issue is with exposure and marketing, not intelligence.

Taavet
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Casual Gamer vs BoardGameGeek

kungfugeek wrote:

Replace "can" with "are willing to" and I might agree with you. But every American Monopoly-head I've introduced to designer games has come to love them, once introduced. I think the issue is with exposure and marketing, not intelligence.

I think this is the real key.

IS WILLING TO, and I'll add play seriously.

Being nothing close to a board game mass marketing expert my best educated guess is that the majority of the target market look for: Simple Rules, Cheap (Monopoly, Sorry, Clue, Life ect can all usually be picked up for $10ish), and 'easy' to play.

When I say easy to play I mean doesn't take a lot of involvement. Something you can pull out to occupy your time but still talk, eat, whatever. So I think the real difference is Casual Gamer vs. someone who frequents these types of sites and actually owns some 'designer' games. Designer games require more thought and involvement which is why we get irritated playing with casual games because we always have to remind them to take their turn or pay attention in general.

As far as what's boring and what isn't that all depends on personal opinion but I'll add a few of mine:

Boring is:
All luck (because you have no control, the game plays you)
No Replayability (once learned it becomes mundane)
Takes little to no skill, doesn't challenge me (kinda like all luck, but different)
A game with boring people (a good group can make almost any game fun)

brisingre
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I'm not certain....

kungfugeek wrote:

Replace "can" with "are willing to" and I might agree with you. But every American Monopoly-head I've introduced to designer games has come to love them, once introduced. I think the issue is with exposure and marketing, not intelligence.

I've confused some people pretty thoroughly in my time, although in most cases you may be right. However, the two statements are functionally the same. Whether the average American cannot or is not willing to grasp 'designer' games, the outcome is the same. They don't.

I'll also agree that one of the things that bothers me the most playing games with a non-hardcore crowd is that they don't take it seriously (need to be reminded that it's their turn, don't play to win) or take it too seriously (spend forever on each decision, take things personally, or worse yet make things personal.) Actually, the second thing can happen to hardcore people too, but it seems to me to be less frequent. (There's also the fact that, when I end up playing a non-designer game that isn't Chess, it's usually with a crowd of people I can't wait to get away from, (extended family, etc.))

The Magician
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brisingre wrote:kungfugeek

brisingre wrote:
kungfugeek wrote:

Replace "can" with "are willing to" and I might agree with you. But every American Monopoly-head I've introduced to designer games has come to love them, once introduced. I think the issue is with exposure and marketing, not intelligence.

I've confused some people pretty thoroughly in my time, although in most cases you may be right. However, the two statements are functionally the same. Whether the average American cannot or is not willing to grasp 'designer' games, the outcome is the same. They don't.

I'll also agree that one of the things that bothers me the most playing games with a non-hardcore crowd is that they don't take it seriously (need to be reminded that it's their turn, don't play to win) or take it too seriously (spend forever on each decision, take things personally, or worse yet make things personal.) Actually, the second thing can happen to hardcore people too, but it seems to me to be less frequent. (There's also the fact that, when I end up playing a non-designer game that isn't Chess, it's usually with a crowd of people I can't wait to get away from, (extended family, etc.))


Good point! I also hate playing with people who hardly enjoy it. Unfortunately I don't know any gamers to play with. Hopefully I can still get value out of playing solo in order to learn something that I want to learn from a game. My girlfriend somewhat is interested in playing a new game I bring home. She didn't seem to enjoy Carccasone too much. I like it a lot.

brisingre
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Finding gamers

Drift around gaming stores. Go to conventions. There's probably something near you. You have some chance of turning up people at a Ren Faire, if that's your style. If you're on a campus (I have no idea where you are) there very well might be a few gaming groups kicking around there already. I'm lucky in that I have a ton of gamer friends, and never have trouble filling up six for a game. However, it shouldn't be all that hard to find people.

The Magician
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brisingre wrote:Drift around

brisingre wrote:
Drift around gaming stores. Go to conventions. There's probably something near you. You have some chance of turning up people at a Ren Faire, if that's your style. If you're on a campus (I have no idea where you are) there very well might be a few gaming groups kicking around there already. I'm lucky in that I have a ton of gamer friends, and never have trouble filling up six for a game. However, it shouldn't be all that hard to find people.

This is great advise. I don't know what to say though, because I haven't really created my life that way up until I started designing some games recently. I live in the south-sound area of Washington state. I would love to sit down and have long game sessions with people sometimes. But I couldn't dedicate myself to playing games with people on a regular basis.

kodarr
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Not sure of distance but when

Not sure of distance but when I was traveling to Washington I came across a small town in northern CA called Eurika. It had a gameing store there. I didn't get to stop in but might help find ppl in the area if you are in southern Washington.

CappedNAmerica
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Boring for some...

I think it's important to remember that not all games are designed for 20-somethings. Clue is designed for ages 9 and up, if I remember correctly. It is a family game designed to entertain children as well as adults. I woudln't expect you to enjoy Candyland much either.

brisingre
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I suppose

I suppose, but think about chess. That's a very hard game, but many children can learn it and some are quite good. Children are good at games. It all depends on the game, but I think I could teach a little kid Catan, or other Eurogames. Ameritrash (I love ameritrash, actually, but it is what it is) is another story.

The Magician
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kodarr wrote:Not sure of

kodarr wrote:
Not sure of distance but when I was traveling to Washington I came across a small town in northern CA called Eurika. It had a gameing store there. I didn't get to stop in but might help find ppl in the area if you are in southern Washington.

I apreciate it kodarr. However, to clearify, Olympia and the area serounding it is considered the south sound in WA state. I live in Olympia. I won't be traveling vary far to play games.

On Clue, I am trying out the new version dicover the secrets. I will give this one a chance. My expectations aren't vary high. Of cource I will be playing two-player with my girlfriend. It's hard to say what four or five players would be like.

brisingre
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Gaming in Olympia

A two minute yellow pages search turned up a bit over a hundred hits for games. Most of those will be children's toy stores, but there are some hobby shops. Some of those may have gaming communities, and there might be a good geek games store on that list, I only read the first five or so.

There are other people in your area looking for gamers. There's even a BGG guild for eurogamers in Olympia. Here's the thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/370480

The Magician
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brisingre wrote:A two minute

brisingre wrote:
A two minute yellow pages search turned up a bit over a hundred hits for games. Most of those will be children's toy stores, but there are some hobby shops. Some of those may have gaming communities, and there might be a good geek games store on that list, I only read the first five or so.

There are other people in your area looking for gamers. There's even a BGG guild for eurogamers in Olympia. Here's the thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/370480


Well, that was incredibly helpful! I guess it's time to open a BGG account and get with the program. hahahh ahhah ahhah aha!

dannorder
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The Magician

The Magician wrote:
Magician,
I think the answer you are looking for is that american culture is like that: "empty" and "sameness".

You've had some odd posts on this board lately, but talking to yourself while insulting an entire country is about the weirdest.

Katherine
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Are you telling me this

Are you telling me this wasn't a glitch?

I have to admit I prefer odd posts over the mundane. Controversy creates reaction; hasty reaction reveals truth. I am yet to see a controversial post with a (0) response and have learnt a heck of a lot more through the reaction of offended designers than through reading the mundane.

brisingre
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There's some truth

Here here!

(I've been assuming that was a typo...)

dannorder
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shazzaz wrote:Are you telling

shazzaz wrote:
Are you telling me this wasn't a glitch?

That would be a pretty odd glitch.

The Magician
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Magician, it's a strange

Magician, it's a strange place going on internet forums. You never know were conversations may lead.

brisingre
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Ok.

Now you're just messing with us...

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