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"Historical" CDGs and timescale

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stevebarkeruk
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Right now I am trying to develop a concept wherein players experience a particular stretch of history, and to integrate the theme I want to use card driven game (CDG) style event cards.

I was looking at about a 20 year period and was taking the unimaginative route of structuring it as 20 turns but, as it's a multi player game rather than 2 player, 20 turns is an awful lot of actions to be taken and I want it to be closer to a 2 hour game than a 6 hour monster like Virgin Queen. So what I'm now trying to get my head around is the abstraction of time in other CDGs.

What I mean is, in Twilight Struggle for example, each turn is described as representing "4 or 5 years" as the game runs 10 turns and represents about 45 years of history. "4 or 5 years" is pretty vague and then when you consider that the only attempt to put events in anything like an historical order is to divide the deck into "early", "mid" and "late" war decks, time becomes even more distorted.

It's difficult for me to detach myself from a strict interpretation of history and a rigid scale for representing time but obviously Twilight Struggle and its ilk are excellent games with enthusiastic fans so I feel my hang ups on these issues should be irrelevant.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to ask here, except does anybody else have this sort of problem in forcing themselves to accept abstraction from theme or even outright inaccuracy because it makes for a better game? Any tips on how to get past such a mental block?

MarkKreitler
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Joined: 11/12/2008
You're not alone

Hey Steve,

You are not alone in wrestling with abstraction versus simulation. I often find myself adding rules to flesh out "simulation" at the cost of the design's simplicity and effectiveness. I have yet to find a case where stripping these rules hurt the design.

For what it's worth, when I read your design summary, my first thought was, "Why not let each event card have a 'time cost' that tells you how far the timeline advances when the event is played?" While I imagine this is too simplified, it does give an intuitive way to scale time and envision the timeline, without forcing turns into lock step.

A system like this might have some interesting variations. For example, imagine if different kinds of events could take place simultaneously? Maybe economic events differ from political events, which in turn differ from military events. Think of them as "green," "blue," and "red." Each color advances its own timeline, with the overall timeline being the one furthest along, but all timelines must be within 2 units of each other. This would prevent players from advancing, say, a purely military agenda because economic and political events would have to "catch up" if the military timeline got too far ahead.

Here's another variation: players have "action points" they can spend in response to events. The number of "action points" depends on the length of the event (longer events generally award more action points -- but not necessarily in direct proportion to the length). Dunno...could be interesting.

Anyway, the main point here is: don't be too tied to the simulation. When I get too bogged down that way, I try to reduce the design to a single core mechanic that captures the feel of the system I'm modeling, then see how fun I can make that lone mechanic.

Good luck!

stevebarkeruk
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The idea of the different

The idea of the different kinds of events is not really applicable to what I'm doing but is fascinating in itself! I could see that being used in something like a cooperative game to mix up the sequence and combination of problems the team faces so that the game can't just be "solved" by experienced players, or at least not as easily.

As for my design I am trying to make myself go with the Twilight Struggle model of vaguely splitting events into early/mid/late brackets and see how it actually plays. I think it's because I have a historical era in mind that it's hard to divorce myself from that but we'll see.

Thanks for commenting :)

camboard
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Cards

The problem is that if you make the timeline *too* strict, you run the risk of causing the game to be forced--and players are simply either following a script or reacting to events in a known manner. Either way you end up with a game that ends up not really being a game.

(Personally, I feel these games *should* be an approximation of how things *could* have been, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I know historians like to parse textbook events into detail, but in the grand scheme of things I think "events" are granted too much weight; it's all of the accumulated forces of society, government, religion, etc. that cause/react to events, not the events themselves. But I digress.)

You can approach this in a number of ways:

1) Depending on the time frame, you can break it down in however many "turns" you want. You could have Turn 1 events, Turn 2, events, etc. This necessitates a set number of turns, of course, but there's no reason you can't. You lose a lot of flexibility this way, however.
2) Use conditions in your events: Event A can't be played until Event B happens, or until a player controls province C (or whatever). Twilight Struggle does this to a minor extent, but you can make this as extensive as you want. However, you'll have to come up with a mechanism that allows players to burn off events that can't be played, and you don't want to do it too much or you'll have players who can't play the majority of their hand.
3) Use triggers for the different eras. Instead of having a set turn in which the "Middle Game" or the "Late Game" starts, do it when some overall condition is met: when a player controls X number of supply centers or converts Y cities to your side, or some other sort of condition.

Chances are, given your reservations, you may want to use a combination of all these, and depending on the nature of your game will determine how you go about doing it. "Minor" events that conceivably could be played at any time should be able to flow free, while creating some "anchor" events that are effectively scripted into the game. Finding that balance will be the challenge.

stevebarkeruk
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Yep, that pretty much sums up

Yep, that pretty much sums up my thinking at the moment. I think the main thing bothering me is that if the premise of the game is that it's taking players through 20 years of history then to go from that to "a turn is an indistinct period of time and events can happen in non historical order" seems really weird and jarring. Again, though, games like Twilight Struggle almost disregard that and they still work.

Regarding your specific points:
1) I think I prefer the "early, mid, late" model to breaking it down turn by turn although I will keep that in mind in case it doesn't work. By making events turn-specific it might make the game too scripted and easy to exploit by experienced players.
2) That's definitely something I should consider, thanks. There will be relatively few of these, though, as I intend players to have hands of only 2 or 3 cards at a time. What I may do is have event modifiers rather than preconditions e.g. you play event X for 3 money but if event Y has already been played it's worth 5 money; so you can play it either way but there's an incentive to delay it into the historical order.
3) When I talk about the early/mid/late game it's because there'll be a limited number of events (currently looking at 36 per game) and I want to stack the deck so the later developments become available later in play but still in an unpredictable order (the "late" events will be somewhere in the last 12 cards but a given event could be card 25, 36 or anywhere in-between), so your idea doesn't necessarily work for that but it's a good one for a game on a grander scale and again I will keep it in mind in case the current version feels wrong.

I suppose what I may really be having trouble with is having faith that players will "fill in the gaps" themselves in their experience of the game so I'm trying to lay out the detail of the theme for them so that they"get it" without having to think. As usual the answer is probably "play test, play test, play test!" to establish whether or not it's actually a problem and try not to worry about it in the meantime :)

Thanks for your input!

Orangebeard
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Joined: 10/13/2011
Unlocked

I have been working on a game that has a deck "unlocking" system you might be able to use.

In terms of your game, there would be 3 decks; Early, Middle, Late. A player would need to play X Early cards to unlock their access to Middle; Y Middle cards to unlock their access to Late and/or Z Early & Y Middle cards to unlock Late.

Each deck is shuffled so you are still adhereing to the "late developments come late and are random" requirement.

If you want to prevent situations in which one player has an amazing draw of cards and advances quickly, you could add a timing requirement. For example, the game starts at year 1. You need to play X Early cards to unlock your Middle deck, but you can never unlock the Middle prior to year 10.

Alternatively, you may allow a sliding requirement for unlocking decks. For example, In Year 1 you would need to have 10 Early cards in play (which won't happen) but in Year 12 you would only need 2 Early cards in play. Somewhere in the middle, the players will strike a balance between actively moving towards later development and letting time pass.

Good luck with your design!

stevebarkeruk
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This is a another interesting

This is a another interesting idea though I think it probably means an extra layer of complexity that I don't want to add. The event cards I'm talking about are only going to be played once each (at the moment anyway), so if there's 36 of them, there will only be 12 in each of the early/mid/late stacks.

I guess the thing I was struggling more with was how to take a concept of "This is a 20 year historical period and every card refers to an event which took place at a specific moment in time" but turn it into "You're actually playing a game of, say, 12 rounds which doesn't map to those 20 years exactly and you're playing events at moments other than when they really happened". It seems like a big disconnect in my head but that may just be me getting hung up on something that won't be a factor in play.

As I've said above, I believe I am probably over-thinking it and need to just get a play test version together to see how players react rather than trying to make it all make sense in my head.

Thanks for the suggestion, though. I would be interested to see a game with your unlocking concept so good luck with yours as well!

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