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How to make spreadsheet games fun and accessible

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larienna
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In the years to come, I am going to work more on game that are often called spreadsheet games. Which are basically games built around a database. In general, there is something negative about those games as they are viewed as complex and only attract a limited amount of players. Still, I am trying to understand what can make those kind of games fun and accessible for everybody.

One of the thing that most spreadsheet games have in common is to have 2 games in one. You have the spreadsheet game consisting of resource management that prepares the 2nd game which is most of the time a tactical game. For example, Romance of the 3 kingdoms, XCOM video game, master of orion have a resource management and development game which fuel your tactical battle. So in some way, the tactical game is the reward for playing the spreadsheet game. You can see everything you have worked for at that point.

The spreadsheet part seems to do many things similar to board games, like resource management, performing actions, etc. But I was wondering if it could actually be possible to have a spreadsheet game without it's tactical game counter part. Could you have a game where the battles are resolved automacially, or with very few decisions (like endless space's play 3 cards rock-paper-scisor style). Board games has that kind of simplified conflict resolution, but the player is actually working by doing the dice rolls and computation, so it might feel a bit more engaging that simply having a computer do all the work telling you only "you win/lost the battle" after clicking the "attack" button.

Maybe it's not a matter of decision but rather feedback. If for example, the conflict resolution was decision less and automated, but each step of the combat resolution was detailed and shown to the user, he will still feel like he got his reward, even if there was no decision implied in the resolution. Do you think it could be enough? Else there could be the minimal decision option like in endless space and Ogre battle Combat resoltion.

What do you think?

From another point of view, you could determine what is not fun in spreadsheet games and at least avoid the worst. Common problems I know includes

- information overflow: Too much information to analyze
- management overflow: Too much things to do, feels like work
- Slow Feedback loop: Send a lot of time and actions before getting results and progress.

Any other ideas?

Fhizban
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hey larienna, yes those games

hey larienna,
yes those games are interesting and yes, they have limited accessibility in regards of players

basically all my own game designs start out as a database, in fact i think all games can be reduced to a clump of data.

what can be done to make them easier to understand manage?

- counter information overflow: use cards like in a CCG/TCG and break down the amount of information put one one card. this allows you feed the information in tiny bits to the player and you can build the game in a object orientated fashion by using cards, families of cards, classes of cards. whatever.

- counter management overflow: keep the amount of book-keeping low by reducing the degree of detail of the game. stats can be tracked using tokens, cards and dice instead of pen-and-paper and not every attribute in the game must be represented by a four to five digit number. keep the numbers small and the amount of numbers low.

just two super quick thoughts from my side!

cheers
-Fhiz

let-off studios
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Player Feedback

larienna wrote:
Maybe it's not a matter of decision but rather feedback. If for example, the conflict resolution was decision less and automated, but each step of the combat resolution was detailed and shown to the user, he will still feel like he got his reward, even if there was no decision implied in the resolution. Do you think it could be enough?
I think feedback of some sort is highly effective in these kinds of situations. For example, if you've invested your resources into certain upgrades for military units, it can be helpful for future investment to see where your units are lacking.

Are they suffering too much damage to effectively fight back? Then invest in better armour. Are their weapons completely shredding a currently-prioritized enemy? Then at least for the time being it's safe to re-allocate weapons technology resources into other areas that appear to be lacking: movement, defense, scanning, etc.

This provides some measurements to the overall rating of "success" or "failure" that allow a player to make [more] informed decisions about what to do, or where to invest, next.

larienna
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On BGG, a user suggested that

On BGG, a user suggested that it created some sort of feedback loop. Where you get feedback to make adjustments in your spreadsheet game, to get new feedback and see how things have evolved.

So in summary, it seems that detailed feedback is very important, while decision during the resolution is not mandatory.

X3M
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I don't know if I should join

I don't know if I should join this discussion.
Do games like O-game fall in this category?

Fhizban
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sorry my fault. you mean

sorry my fault.

you mean these ugly things played in a excel spreadsheet.

urgh...really no idea how to make this hardcore nerd stuff a bit more appealing ;-)

larienna
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Check this thread, I have

Check this thread, I have some pictures as examples.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/22016311

X3M
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larienna wrote:Check this

larienna wrote:
Check this thread, I have some pictures as examples.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/22016311

Trouble posting them here, I assume. :)

That X-com. I know someone posting video's right now on Youtube. Will check it out there.
But it is different than what most people think. When one mention a database game.
That is also why I asked if O-game falls in that category. But judging by the other pictures it does in certain aspects.

***

To make them fun? A lot of flavour text??
No.

But what players like in a game is still the combat resolution.
Each player needs to be able to look at the points other players have. And somehow feel superior in one or more aspects. If you can do this without the combat resolution taking place, you got a game of fun for all.

Something along the lines of:
I got more infantry relatively to his tanks. And to top it of, my rockets do 10+14 damage already.
If we battle, I will win and have about 3/4th remaining troops.

The other player has to have a back up plan ready. This requires some blind databases? But if one plays weak, that player too might feel superior. But then in a defensive way. A player has to attack first before the hidden database is of use.

In short:
All players need to feel that they are on top with their numbers. In other words. All players need to think that if a battle occurs, they will win. So they have a constant reward in that matter.

The only thing that I am not sure about is the blind database. I don't know how to keep that fair.

larienna
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Quote:That X-com. I know

Quote:
That X-com. I know someone posting video's right now on Youtube. Will check it out there.

You don't know XCOM? It's really lacking to your culture. XCOM 2 is getting released soon. Not sure if the XCOM 1 demo is still out there, the game is available on all platforms from PC to console. It's an awesome game even from a design perspective because they managed to streamline and simplify the original game to make it more accessible. Lot of thing to learn from this game.

Quote:
The only thing that I am not sure about is the blind database. I don't know how to keep that fair.

Sure database video games allow having a double blind game (which can be pretty useful). Most of the time, there is a certain amount of information you are allowed to access from your opponents. You cannot see everything, sometimes it could require a spy to get access to more information.

Quote:
To make them fun? A lot of flavour text??

I have been thinking about this, if well placed it could make it more fun to play. First because you reinforce the theme, second because you give something different to handle than number crunching.

Flavor text could be integrated with rule text so that players have a reason to read the text. For example, in Master of Orion 2 and XCOM, technology description does that, they explain the thematic concept behind the technology and give you the rule benefits afterwards.

Corsaire
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Hammurabi, the ancient

Hammurabi, the ancient computer game, functioned that way. All you did was manage your small spreadsheet. There have been others.

If the intent is specifically to manage the economic engine for a group in conflict, then you have quotas.

"Intelligence reports that the enemy has 12 power in navy, 6 power in land forces; we anticipate an invasion opportunity in n two months."

So, you decide on a response and allocations and timelines to meet these objectives. You have random outcomes, but could spend more on intelligence to reduce that variance.

Once you abstract quotas, you can choose the level of detail you want your game to operate against. Maybe you are building tanks, or maybe you are just budgeting money for steel mills.

If you look at the computer game Civilization; it gives military and economic paths. You can pursue economic goals flipping between cities with very little board engagement. Then there is the Avalon Hill Civilization board game that manages conflicts with one for one attrition.

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