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Jewel-collecting Twist on Victory Point Game -- Good or Bad?

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Tue, 06/13/2017 - 17:22
Actionartist
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I'm designing a 2-4 player game called Privateer, targeting the 10+ audience with a game simple enough to learn with being intimidated, yet strategic enough to draw a larger demographic. I'd really like some feedback on the basic end goal of the game. While the actual experience of the game has always been firm--battling and plundering enemy ships on the seas as a commissioned privateer--the endgame has always been an issue for me. It's always either too easy to win or too time-consuming, and I need to find a balance!

Right now, you start out with three jewels (all vulnerable to being stolen) stored in your home port on your side of the board, with the object of getting six jewels total to win the game. The only supplies of jewels are other players' jewels and the four jewels in the center of the board belonging to the corsairs. So by plundering the corsairs' stash, plundering your opponents' ports, and/or capturing jewels from your opponents' ships, you hope to return your ships safely home to unload the jewels--all while protecting your own stash.

Sounds great, right?

The only problem I'm encountering through playtesting is this: the endgame tends to come down to who can grab the most jewels the fastest and dash home without being attacked. There's still a good amount of conflict in the middle stage of the game, with plenty of attacking and plundering and the whole privateering experience, but the end game comes with a sudden bang as one player makes it home with two or three jewels and ends it all.

So is my victory point system flawed? Should I change the whole system of stealing other players' jewels to something else? Should I just raise the bar and require more jewels to win, or should the captured jewels just magically appear in your home port without having to transport them home? What am I missing? If anyone needs more information before they can give an opinion, I'd be happy to fill you in!

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Tue, 06/13/2017 - 22:02
#1
ssm
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Maybe you can only transport

Maybe you can only transport 1 jewel at a time?
Maybe add more corsairs so it is more of a random as to which ones have a jewel?

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Tue, 06/13/2017 - 22:07
#2
let-off studios
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Possible Solutions

Off the top of my head, here are two possible considerations to attempt in future playtests:

- Each gemstone may look identical, but they are worth different amounts of points. Each player's hoard starts as an identical point value, but an invader has no way of knowing the value of the gem they steal until they've snatched it.
- Gemstones stolen from a particular hoard are worth more if they're the first gemstone stolen. For example: at the lair of the corsairs, someone who steals the first gemstone earns 8 points. The player who steals the next earns 6, then 4, and the last gemstone stolen earns that player 2 points. Same thing would go for other players' hoards.
- Go the Catan route and permit a random roll that allows a robber to return gemstones stolen from the corsairs back to their hoard. Players may influence this based on the number of corsair gemstones they've stolen: the fewer, the better.

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 09:08
#3
Actionartist
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Different gemstone values …

The differing-valued gemstones idea intrigues me. I'm having a difficult time visualizing how to keep track of all those varying amounts of victory points, though. Right now, each jewel is worth the same amount, which makes it super-simple to count VPs, but perhaps too simple …

Any ideas of a good system to keep track of VPs with varying gemstone values? Keeping in mind I have to keep this game straightforward enough for the average ten-year-old gamer to handle? Maybe a deck of cards that explain the gemstone values, or a chart that shows which color stone is worth what amount of VPs, or …?

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 09:20
#4
Actionartist
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I probably ought to start

I probably ought to start another thread on the corsairs, because they're a whole mechanic in themselves. But I do have a system where each corsair, if not attacked beforehand, slowly travels to each player's hoard, wiping out everything in their path as they do, and steals one gemstone, instantly returning the gem to their stash. But this is a pretty slow process, because each corsair doesn't move unless its number gets rolled at the start of every turn. Your method of the players being more likely to steal fewer corsair gemstones is good though, I like that.

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 09:58
#5
let-off studios
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Different Values

Actionartist wrote:
Any ideas of a good system to keep track of VPs with varying gemstone values? Keeping in mind I have to keep this game straightforward enough for the average ten-year-old gamer to handle?
Have a token to represent a gemstone, with one side illustrated with the jewel and the other listing its value. It could be something as simple as a poker chip-style token a la Splendor, or something more elaborate and jewel-like. I think these would be interesting...

http://www.customeeple.com/product/gem-token/

Pick a shape and stick with it, having several different values for identical-looking gems on the opposite side of the token.

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 10:06
#6
let-off studios
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Varying Point Values

Actionartist wrote:
Any ideas of a good system to keep track of VPs with varying gemstone values? Keeping in mind I have to keep this game straightforward enough for the average ten-year-old gamer to handle?
Ah! My apologies. You mean with the example I gave of the first stone being taken being worth 8, the next worth 6, etc. here's one option to try.

Each player has a score track where points are awarded, or a pile of coins. Gemstones themselves would not have values printed on them. However, at the Corsair Island, there would be four central spots, each marked with the required point values. There are four other spots outside of the initial four that are blank.

When a player steals a jewel from the corsairs, they take it from the highest-value spot still occupied. Then they either place the gemstone on their score track at the points they will earn, or collect a stack of coins equal to the point value they will earn. When the player returns to their home base, either advance the score track the required number of points, or add the stack of coins to the player's total. Either way, the gemstone they held is set aside in their stash.

If a corsair steals back a gemstone, it's added to one of the blank spots on the Corsair Island, and awards 1 point each, only after all the rest of the corsair gemstones are stolen from the point-value spots.

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 10:36
#7
Actionartist
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As far as the gemstones with

As far as the gemstones with the values hidden on the back, I like that.

The "score track" has me a bit confused, though. Are you referring to some sort of point-keeping board with a grid of numbers and a token to move back and forth to mark how many VPs you have? Something along the lines of Axis & Allies' Industrial Production board? (I'm guessing this idea assumes that the gemstones don't have values on the backs?)

Either way, I think I'll playtest the gemstones with variable values on the back. You won't know how much they're worth until you capture one, and then you will store it in your port with the value facing up for everyone to see.

I need to steer clear of "King of Thieves" from this point though …

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 10:39
#8
ElKobold
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Historically privateers were

Historically privateers were serving under certain government's patents, attacking other countries merchant ships.

So, my question is - why use abstract gems if you can use historical accuracy to your advantage.

Have country-specific ships move around the board with each player aiming to sink specific ships while (possibly) protecting friendlies.

The first player to sink X ships or as soon as X ships arrive safely to their destination, the game ends. You can have those ships with different values to use as a tiebreaker and drop the necessity to drop the loot entirely.

That way you can concentrate on the fun part (sinking ships) and have a predictable end-game trigger. If you have gems that can be stolen after being scored, the game could potentially drag forever.

You can also push this thematic aspect (country allegiance) further for added depth and make it dynamic. So players might change their flag at the corresponding country's colony, depending on which merchants are available for plundering at a given moment, with players running the same flag unable to attack each other, while being in direct competition for the merchant ships they aim to destroy.

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 10:59
#9
Actionartist
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Good points

Good points, @ElKobold. I have to say I've definitely tried a few variations of sinking X amount of ships as a game-end trigger, but I found it was much more fun capturing the ships instead of sinking them. Essentially, when you defeat an enemy ship, you get a new ship added to your fleet, which basically means you have raised your flag in your defeated opponent's ship. In other words, ships aren't actually sinking, they are just being captured and upgraded throughout the game. This, I believe, is mostly historical, and the plundering of gems off of enemy ships was meant to be historical too.

You raise a fair point with the historical flaws my game has in this stage. I originally had the game set with four different privateering countries (Spain, Portugal, England and France) all competing on a world map. But I scrapped that idea when the world map became too sprawling and inconvenient for practical gameplay.

BUT …

I love the idea of being able to change your flag. Each player secretly chooses a flag at the start, and everyone shows their flag at the same time, finding out which players are "allies" and which are "enemies". Then you would have the opportunity to change your colors when convenient throughout strategic points of the game. Because you're not really anybody's true ally …

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 11:10
#10
ElKobold
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Actionartist wrote:In other

Actionartist wrote:
In other words, ships aren't actually sinking, they are just being captured and upgraded throughout the game. This, I believe, is mostly historical,

This is an interesting point where historical reality clashes with pop-culture perception.
In reality, buccaneers would use small-sized vessels for their activities. Using a captured galleon for piracy wouldn't be practical.

That being said, it would probably be better to ignore this aspect of realism, as most players would expect to command a frigate no less, I imagine :)

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Wed, 06/14/2017 - 11:18
#11
Actionartist
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ElKobold wrote:In reality,

ElKobold wrote:
In reality, buccaneers would use small-sized vessels for their activities. Using a captured galleon for piracy wouldn't be practical.

The key we're missing here (sorry, I forgot to mention it) is that the ships are all unique. There are six different types of ships per person, each with different attack, defense, cargo and movement abilities. So some of the ships are quick and small, others are large, slow and cargo-heavy … You are using some for transport, some for privateering, some for defense, etc. So you would capture a galleon for its cargo capacity, not for using as a future pirate ship. If that makes sense.

So the board is active with some ships transporting gemstones back and forth, and others zipping around attacking unguarded tradeships, and corsairs unexpectedly destroying everything in their path …

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