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Less need for statistic cards

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X3M
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I was thinking about incorporating statistics into the designs of the pieces.
With this, players don't have to look into statistic cards to remember what an unit or structure can do.
And I am trying to gather as much idea's as possible.
But the statistic cards remain as a reference, just in case, they are more or less as a collectors item.

***

I have cut down to 10 statistics for the pieces:
- Maximum allowed
- Costs per piece
- Weapon costs of a piece
- Speed
- Health
- Durability
- Range
- Multiplier
- Damage
- Accuracy

Some have multiple meanings in the game.
Especially cost per piece is used in multiple times.

***

Maximum allowed
The maximum allowed is linked with the costs per piece. There can be 24, 12, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2 or 1 of a certain design. I think that this is to be placed only on the statistics card.
And players will purchase this amount per bag.
eg. That means that one purchased bag will contain 6 infantry or 3 tanks.
The high numbers are rare, but the pieces are small and simple in other regards.

Costs per piece
Seeing as how much this is being used. It is very important to get the number somewhere on the piece.
It is used to build the piece in the game.
As size for movement and placement.
And for the bonus rules on range and damage.
There can be 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12 or 24.
I was thinking of engraving this number on the bottom of each piece.

Weapon costs of a piece
This too, is a number.
It is used for the bonus rules.
It will be engraved right next to the costs per piece.
eg. Infantry might have 4/2. Where 4 is the Costs per piece and 2 is the Weapon costs of a piece.

Speed
This is the fun part in design.
I was thinking of different types of propulsion to show the speed.
The number of items would mean a heavier thus slower unit. 4 wheels is slower then 3 wheels. etc.
A clown on a one wheel would be the fastest unit in the game. But it is a war game, so dirt bikes are the fastest here.
So far, there is only going to be ground units.

I can think of a list for types of propulsions. But the effect of the number of propulsions is left out.
Maybe someone else has idea's.

- On foot, 3 possibilities (back pack, notching on the back, jet pack)
- Wheeled, 7 possibilities (one design would have 5 wheels, where it is driving on 4, but has a reserve wheel visible on the back)
- Tracked, 5 possibilities (starts with 6 "wheels" and goes up with pairs to 10. After that, we have 2 tracks per side that goes up to 8)
- Half tracks. I don't know if I should add them. They have proven to be useless in general.
- Mechs. Are legged tanks. Right under the design or on the sides is a huge difference.

While different propulsions seems like a good idea at first. The design possibilities show that players need to remember what propulsion provides what speed. Each propulsion type also starts at different numbers, but also has different subtractions with more.
Wheeled goes like this: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. With speeds 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
Players either remember the speed linked to the unit. Or linked to the propulsion design. It is almost the same.

Health
I already had a topic about this:
Holes in the design - Health
0 - 1
1 - 2
2 - 4
3 - 8
A hole can have pins with 1/3 damage counters.
Seeing as how difficult these are in 3d printing. I am already looking into other possibilities.
Perhaps simple coloured cubes on a rail.

Durability
I have no idea with this one, yet.

Range
Seeing as how barrels, rockets and other projectiles are shown. I think that I could add "stripes" on the barrels. 1 stripe already means a range of 2. Flamethrowers and grenade throwers have a range of 1. Provided that they show ammunition on the design.
A grenade launcher can have multiple stripes and doesn't need ammunition.

Swords and tracked are both melee weaponry, with a range of 0. These weapons are not thrown in any way.
Also placement of C4 is clearly if the soldier holds it in his hands on breast height. If the soldier shows the throwing gesture, it will have range 1.

For warcraft 2 fans: This would mean that an axethrower needs to carry multiple axes. While an axethrower without ammunitions, will be a melee unit with an axe.

The artillery could look like this:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/generalsrotr/images/5/51/Nuke_Cannon...
With 6 stripes, it would mean a range of 7. :)

Multiplier
1 barrel, 1 projectile.
2 barrels, 2 projectiles.
etc?

But what about flamethrowers that have multiple projectiles? Several pins in the front?
I have no idea with this one, yet.

Damage
I have no idea with this one, yet.

Accuracy
I have no idea with this one, yet.

pelle
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Wow. That would be a lot even

Wow. That would be a lot even to put on a cardboard counter. I would not want to have the miniature as the primary source of all that info, lookig for subtle things like stripes on a barrel an trying to remember what those mean etc. Would definitely look at the card first. But having also everything encoded on the mini sounds great for quic reminders and learning all values to eventually not have to consult the card so much

Jay103
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Do I understand correctly

Do I understand correctly that you have Damage and Accuracy as stats on your pieces, but you don’t know what they’re going to do in game?

If that’s correct, I’d ask why the stat is leading the game, and not the game determining the need for the stat...

X3M
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pelle wrote:Wow. That would

pelle wrote:
Wow. That would be a lot even to put on a cardboard counter. I would not want to have the miniature as the primary source of all that info, lookig for subtle things like stripes on a barrel an trying to remember what those mean etc. Would definitely look at the card first. But having also everything encoded on the mini sounds great for quic reminders and learning all values to eventually not have to consult the card so much

Yes, I agree. It is to much at the moment.
I am still cutting in the game.
Perhaps I need to reduce the stats, but I am still working on that.

If certain stats are removed from those cards, either by cutting them out of the game or inserting them in the piece designs. Then things go quicker.

I am pondering about changing or removing the following stats. Durability and Accuracy.
Both are double edged in removing from the game.
But it would go from 10 to 8 important numbers.

Jay103 wrote:
Do I understand correctly that you have Damage and Accuracy as stats on your pieces, but you don’t know what they’re going to do in game?

If that’s correct, I’d ask why the stat is leading the game, and not the game determining the need for the stat...


You misunderstood.
I know exactly what those statistics will do.
With "I have no idea with this one, yet." I meant that I don't know yet how to "display" the numbers in terms of 3D design of the pieces.

I still don't know yet of a way to easily put them into the picture or 3D design of the pieces.

The goal of this topic is to see if value's can be displayed in the 2d/3d design of that piece.

So that they don't have to look up numbers in tables.
A quick glance at the pieces and they are done.

Eg. In 2D terms, all value's could be printed on the back. Except for speed and range. Which could be on top.

Jay103
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Oh good :) I don’t think you

Oh good :)

I don’t think you can put everything into the 3D piece. Convey a couple of key attributes that have clear ways to be differentiated and then use a card...

Otherwise you’re mostly making a 3D card, AND your piece design will end up being almost completely determined by the stats, rather than by the art you really want.

X3M
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Cutting complexity means complexity?

Jay103 wrote:
Oh good :)

I don’t think you can put everything into the 3D piece. Convey a couple of key attributes that have clear ways to be differentiated and then use a card...

Otherwise you’re mostly making a 3D card, AND your piece design will end up being almost completely determined by the stats, rather than by the art you really want.


That is sound advice!

So far, the damage inflicted tracking was already of influence on certain shapes. I didn't think that far as the pieces being completely fixed. So, perhaps it is better to keep away from this implementation.

Key attributes that are linked to the board and important comparisons, are:
- Costs per piece
- Weapon costs of a piece
- Speed
- Health
- Range
- Multiplier

Ok. The health is an obvious one for everyone.

The first 2 are used a lot, really a lot. So, it would be handy to have them on the bottom of the pieces for quicker comparison. But this demands better connection between damage counters and the pieces themselves.

While speed and range are linked to the board. They don't need to be displayed, really. Besides, these 2 statistics are used really a lot in any game, not just this game. So players remember them first.

Multiplier, well, would not fit this list. But it is visible to most by the number of barrels. But maybe I said before, units like flamethrowers have a 1 barrelled weapon, yet rolling multiple dice. So, I got another idea in reducing the list per card.

eg rifle infantry
6 - Maximum allowed
4 - Costs per piece
2 - Weapon costs of a piece
1 - Speed
1 - Health
3 - Durability
1 - Range
1 - Multiplier
1 - Damage
6 - Accuracy

How much can be cut from this example?
Some stats are 1 and are considered to be defaults in the game.
In fact, I could cut any default stats from the card.
Then we are left with this:

eg2 rifle infantry
6 - Maximum allowed
4 - Costs per piece
2 - Weapon costs of a piece

Players need to know that these value's are default value's:
1 - Speed
1 - Health
3 - Durability
1 - Range
1 - Multiplier
1 - Damage
6 - Accuracy

Another basic unit might have more on the card then.

eg3 combat tank
3 - Maximum allowed
8 - Costs per piece
4 - Weapon costs of a piece
1 - Speed
4 - Health
3 - Durability
1 - Range
1 - Multiplier
4 - Damage
6 - Accuracy

eg4 combat tank
3 - Maximum allowed
8 - Costs per piece
4 - Weapon costs of a piece
4 - Health
4 - Damage

The question is, do players understand that the following is still default?
1 - Speed
3 - Durability
1 - Range
1 - Multiplier
6 - Accuracy

As you can see, durability and accuracy are still in the default list.
Speed, range and multiplier will have, so far I know, more variables in the game.

Maximum allowed can be removed from all the cards if you think about it. It is 24 divided by how much they cost. So, it is in fact just 9 figures to remember.

I have cut down to 9 statistics for the pieces:
- Costs per piece
- Weapon costs of a piece
- Speed
- Health
- Durability
- Range
- Multiplier
- Damage
- Accuracy

I could fit them in a 3x3 box on the card?

careful conclusion
Health has influence on the body of the piece.
1, 2 or 3 holes when needed.

The costs are numbers on the bottom or basis for quick reference.

All other statistics are on the cards, including the 3 that are fixed on the pieces.

Jay103
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Color?

These can be colored? Simplest way to add clear info for people who aren’t color blind. Color of base, color of weapon..

X3M
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The 3D printer that we have

The 3D printer that we have is a single colour at the moment.

2D pictures are easy with colour. But let's say my artwork equals that of kindergarten quality. :)

Also, I was thinking about different colours for players.

Fri
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Counter cubes on the base

For each stat you want to track on the piece on the base you could have a spots to put up to three cubes. Let say that gold, silver and bronze cubes. Say that gold=5, silver=3, bronze=1. By appropriate cube in the slot spot you can track values 0-11. If you add a 10 value cube you can track 0-16.

Are health and damage redundant? If they are can you eliminate one of them? (I am probably missing some subtly in game play here)

X3M
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Fri wrote:For each stat you

Fri wrote:
For each stat you want to track on the piece on the base you could have a spots to put up to three cubes. Let say that gold, silver and bronze cubes. Say that gold=5, silver=3, bronze=1. By appropriate cube in the slot spot you can track values 0-11. If you add a 10 value cube you can track 0-16.

Are health and damage redundant? If they are can you eliminate one of them? (I am probably missing some subtly in game play here)

For the health tracking. I had a previous topic. It was resolved.
And the cubes are going to be 1 and 3.
The damage that is tracked is 1 to 7.
2 health units have 1 spot.
4 health units have 2 spots.
8 health units have 3 spots.

All other stats are a given and will not change.
If an unit has attacked or moved, it will be exhausted.

My current objective is simplifying the game by removing the durability roll. It is the most complex roll and asks the most down time. But I have not yet find the time to test this.

X3M
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Changes in opposite directions leads to...

I am reconsidering the health's weights at the moment.
The health and weight factor at the moment are:
1, 2
2, 3
4, 4
8, 6

But I might remove one and change it into:
1, 3
4, 6
8, 9 (should be 9 health, but 2x4 is better)

***

With this:
+ Better linear progress in the tiers.
+ 1/3ths are better to add and remove from the default=1. (It's math)
= The total points per region goes from 24 to 36.
+ Scrapping durability will not cause design problems.
- The sharpening of RPS is now confusing. I need to reconsider this too.

***

Then, there where 8:
- Costs per piece
- Weapon costs of a piece
- Speed
- Health
- Range
- Multiplier
- Damage
- Accuracy

***

The hardening of RPS needs a change:
I had chosen ≤4, ≤3 and ≤2 as extra rolls when the wrong weapon was chosen.
But one type is removed from the game. What remains is something confusing.
There is no clear progress in tier with health. And thus the weapons will have some weird value's.

1 damage, will have ≤3 on 4 health and ≤2 on 8 health
4 damage, will have ≤3 on 1 health and ≤4 on 8 health
8 damage, will have ≤2 on 1 health and ≤4 on 8 health

As you can see, confusing as hell. And on second thought, it was already complex to begin with.

What I can do now, is providing a simple solution and also something that I considered before.

Quote:
A wrong target?
Roll a ≤3.

Please keep in mind. This is target related. Not accuracy related. This roll is not "brainless".

***

What else to scrap?

Maaaaybe, accuracy after all? We'll see next time.

X3M
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This decision, I give it a couple of days

I decided to have the wrong weapon choice to be rolling 3 or less for all weapons: No table to remember.

I have 2 options now to remove durability.

---

ONE

Rolls:
-It starts with a basic roll of ≤3.
-Then an accuracy roll of the weapons ≤X
-To conclude, structures as target will add another roll of ≤4.
-And the wrong weapon will be ≤3.

Health:
1, 2, 4 and 8 are possible. Their weight is:
2, 3, 4 and 6.

To keep balance in speed * health options. The following speeds are possible with round numbers:
0, 1, 4, 7 and 10

There are a total of 20 body designs.
Score to count is 24; basic infantry costs 4.

Con:
More speed * health options exist; speed 2, 3, 5, 6, 8 and 9 are possible with to produce round numbers with only 2 and 8 health (which is 3 and 6 as weight).
That means that these health value's, when designed with those speeds, are less designed with the "basic" speeds.
I don't like that fact.

---

TWO

Rolls:
-It starts with a basic roll of ≤3.
-Then an accuracy roll of the weapons ≤X
-And the wrong weapon will be ≤3.

Health:
1, 4 and 8 are possible. Their weight is:
3, 6 and 9.

To keep balance in speed * health options. The following speeds are possible with round numbers:
All speeds; 0 to 10.

There are a total of 33 body designs.
Score to count is 36; basic infantry costs 6.

Con:
That gap between 1 and 4 health.
That gap between no damage tracking and suddenly 2 boxes.
I can add the 2 health. But it would only fill in speeds 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 etc+2.

***

What would you choose;
Given only the information in this post?

Either way, only 8 stats remain.

***

2 days later. And I am heading towards the second choice more and more. But there is one important issue that might help me. For that, I make a new topic.

X3M
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I have chosen the second option.

Included is the one with weight 4.5

Don't worry guys, 4.5 is not visible in the game.
I can design around it and keep balance either way.

The second body tier (4.5), will only have even speeds; 0, 2, 4, 6 etc+2.
The second weapon tier, can have all ranges, but I need to work with accuracy. This variable will not be removed.

Right now, the list looks like this:

8 statistics for the pieces:
- Costs per piece
- Weapon costs of a piece
- Speed
- Health
- Range
- Multiplier
- Damage
- Accuracy

Now then, I need to separate these in clusters of statistics on the cards. And keep them as small as possible. So a simple symbol and how much space I might need for the numbers.

Costs;
- Costs per piece; 2 digits are common
- Weapon costs of a piece; 2 digits are uncommon

$## W##

Some pieces will have 2 or 3 weapons. For now, I think that the complete set will be treated as one weapon to upgrade. Despite having the several weapons being used separately in the game.

Body;
- Speed; I decided to have 10 (X) as a maximum speed. Do players accept X as a 10??
- Health; 1 digit only, there will be no future plans for a health of 16 or more.

S# H#

Weapon;
- Range; Same as speed, a maximum of 10.
- Multiplier; Single digit, period.
- Damage; Again no future plans for more, so a single digit.
- Accuracy; dice roll, single digit. But... this symbol will be added as well; ≤ .

R# M# D# ≤#

I think, weapon can be simplified for most pieces.
Multiplier is often 1.
Accuracy is often 6.
Only adding them when needed, doesn't really save space.
But would it add confusion for players??

Some pieces will have 2 weapons (And some even 3). I might expand the box for the weapon and add them. But this will make the card look different. I will get a little bit of free space that will remain unused I think. So I need to ponder on this one for now.

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