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The math of it all

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Mon, 04/20/2009 - 07:00
#91
End of Time Games
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Willi B wrote:that have no

Willi B wrote:
that have no great math skills and no study of game theory that can become serious designers as well.

I would consider these people the equivalent of "primitive" - "naive" - "outsider" artists by the newest definition. People that live outside of game study that accomplish great designs without the study and formal practice of games and those mathematics that bind their design.

Many designers start this way, making up rules to go with those army men or matchbox cars we got for Christmas.... I think you can sometimes find people like that that have never heard of many modern games or game theory that have been working independently of the culture and knowledge that have created wonderful works of fantasy and imagination.

I often wonder how much more creativity is lost to those of us who embrace the conformity that knowledge brings... the world needs more Willy Wonkas.


lol this curriously sounds like me. I wouldn't throw "primitive, and naive around lightly though. I may lack experience in game design but I always find out everything I need to know. Make certain you know just what you're talking about when you are thinking about this outsider designer or steriotype.

There can be the person who is well versed in every facet of theory math technique...etc, and has no talent to do anything wonderful with the tools....mediocre. There can also be the mind that no matter what they set their mind to they create beautiful works....everything they touch turns to gold.

On the other hand, I've observed lazy designers who have some idea, not a very good one......and you never here of them again. So what! You never hear from them again.

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Mon, 04/20/2009 - 07:33
#92
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Not my terminology

I was using the terms as they have been defined recently... not as insults. These are the words people have come up with in the art industry to explain artists that come from non-studied backgrounds.

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Mon, 04/20/2009 - 13:30
#93
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Willi B wrote:I was using the

Willi B wrote:
I was using the terms as they have been defined recently... not as insults. These are the words people have come up with in the art industry to explain artists that come from non-studied backgrounds.

Willi B, please excuse me. No iffence taken. I totally misred what you were saying. It through me off because I thought we were talking about game design and game designers. I interpreted it out of context.

Yes, it's true. In the artworld there are naive artists. I am familear with the turm and also primative art. I am related to one. Some of the best examples of "Naive artists" are what me and my friends have refered to "the school of Bob Ross". Because these people, mostly old granies, take a workshop to learn the simple techniques of Bob Ross. This doesn't include any real formal training as far as I'm aware of. It's mostly how to scrub in some trees with a fan brush. And as far as I have observed these painting frequently end up in the thrift store or sometimes a dumpster, or given to family members. Paintings of this nature really don't posses any real fine art qualities or aysthetic quality classical or otherwise to be admired. I think it's interesting you bring that up actually because I've had many discussions with friends about naive art.

I don't care for primitive art, but I will not slam it's artistic value because it's a whole different thing. It's an art mainly ouside of western culture.

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Mon, 04/20/2009 - 15:26
#94
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End of Time Games wrote:In

End of Time Games wrote:
In the artworld there are naive artists. I am familear with the turm and also primative art. I am related to one. Some of the best examples of "Naive artists" are what me and my friends have refered to "the school of Bob Ross".

End of Time Games wrote:
Paintings of this nature really don't posses any real fine art qualities or aysthetic quality classical or otherwise to be admired.

That's not what the term Naive artist is normally applied to. Henri Rousseau is the classic example of what a naive artist is. And it's quite a bold statement to disqualify a whole artistic genre, even if it's out of ignorance about the real meaning of the term.

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Mon, 04/20/2009 - 16:37
#95
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seo wrote:End of Time Games

seo wrote:
End of Time Games wrote:
In the artworld there are naive artists. I am familear with the turm and also primative art. I am related to one. Some of the best examples of "Naive artists" are what me and my friends have refered to "the school of Bob Ross".

End of Time Games wrote:
Paintings of this nature really don't posses any real fine art qualities or aysthetic quality classical or otherwise to be admired.

That's not what the term Naive artist is normally applied to.
[Henri Rousseau](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Rousseau) is the classic example of what a _naive artist_ is. And it's quite a bold statement to disqualify a whole artistic genre, even if it's out of ignorance about the real meaning of the term.


I'm familiar with Rousseau. I didn't include that example. There are lot of examples. I see it all the time. I know the turm. It's usually vary stylized and abandons expressing true realism. Like for example when figures are painted with limbs as thick as tree trunks. Henri Rousseau is probably a better example of the formal turm. But I would argue that Ross could be considered part of the genre. Bob Ross doesn't seem somehow included officially in the artworld. I am not naive about art or art history. I do have my own views on it though that most artists would not share. Infact I would shamelessly teas the artworld for all it's stupid fake personas without meaningful or greatworks....empty personas and pretences. The art world is a whore.

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Mon, 04/20/2009 - 17:24
#96
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End of Time Games wrote:seo

End of Time Games wrote:
seo wrote:
End of Time Games wrote:
In the artworld there are naive artists. I am familear with the turm and also primative art. I am related to one. Some of the best examples of "Naive artists" are what me and my friends have refered to "the school of Bob Ross".

End of Time Games wrote:
Paintings of this nature really don't posses any real fine art qualities or aysthetic quality classical or otherwise to be admired.

That's not what the term Naive artist is normally applied to.
[Henri Rousseau](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Rousseau) is the classic example of what a _naive artist_ is. And it's quite a bold statement to disqualify a whole artistic genre, even if it's out of ignorance about the real meaning of the term.


I'm familiar with Rousseau. I didn't include that example. There are lot of examples. I see it all the time. I know the turm. It's usually vary stylized and abandons expressing true realism. Like for example when figures are painted with limbs as thick as tree trunks. Henri Rousseau is probably a better example of the formal turm. But I would argue that Ross could be considered part of the genre. Bob Ross doesn't seem somehow included officially in the artworld. I am not naive about art or art history. I do have my own views on it though that most artists would not share. Infact I would shamelessly teas the artworld for all it's stupid fake personas without meaningful or greatworks....empty personas and pretences. The art world is a whore.

Actually, I think it's fair if I am to make outragious statements like the art world is a whore, I should be a little more specific. Of course in art, there is no accounting for taste. I like my art though. Much of modern art has destroyed art as a noble form of expression. So much art that is created over the last over a hundred years is emotional and expresses how scewed the artist is in the head. I resent the artist steriotype thanks to modern art. Or, tries to be shocking for no reason other than to be shocking. I feel such expressions are emty and frankly stupid.......such trash! I have my emotional moments. I have my angry moments. But, my art expresses only power. People have said walking into my studio or other places where my figurative and portraits were, that they were startled thinking that someone else was in the room staring at them behind there back. I have erotic pieces but the rest only try to express noble thoughts meaning and truth. Capturing the soul and life of an individual to me is way more meaningful than painting shapes of the emotion "hate" or capturing ....whatever. It's like, people who relate to Picasso relate to his work because he was 877%*8 in the head and so are they. It's sort of like people who twang on the guitar about there depression and heart ache vs. music that expresses absolute divine beauty and genius. One make you think about whatever emotional state your in and the other inpspirs and uplifts you. That is how I feel about the artworld to make a statement like that. "shocking" seems to advance carreres and reputation. The artworld flows a tide of ever changing trends and hype. I have been turned off to pursuing being somebody in the artworld for a vary long time. Look at me. I'm ranting. I'l stop.

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Wed, 05/13/2009 - 13:04
#97
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Mitchell Allen wrote:One

Mitchell Allen wrote:
One thing I have discovered about my design philosophy is that everything seems to boil down to simple hoarding.
Maybe it is the influence of the games that I enjoy playing: PC simulations.
Your basic resource gathering priorities determine your success in advancing the capabilities of your units, factories and ultimately, your empire.

Translating that into board games has been an eye-opener for me. I found that crude increments in probabilities were sufficient - no less than 10% increments. This makes my math simple, giving me more time to play-test and tweak.

Most of the time, I use a 10-20-30-40 ratio to delineate attributes, rates of change, and chance of encounters.
That 10% works just as well as 5%, 8% or 15%: it simply means "Not very often".

There is one aspect of math that's really important: scale. It wouldn't do to have gold trade on the open market for $6,000 USD per ounce. Yet, without careful scaling of money, troops or any other economical aspect of your game, you risk creating unrealistic worlds.


This is an interesting piece of advice Mitch. So you're saying that the mathy stuff is quite simple right?

I remembered what Mitch said here and have been thinking for some time on how or what is the best method of sorting out or balanceing cards and the information on them? How do designers handle the many cards that are in a game. I'm suspicious that it is actually a simple math.

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