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Miniatures health tracking?

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Tue, 10/04/2022 - 18:49
X3M
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It seems I can't find the topic regarding this...

So I made a new one.

I am planning to 3D print my stuff. Or at least make tge 3D models.

My goal is to do some sort of healtg tracking.

1 health doesn't need to be tracked.
And it looks like 16 health (heroes) is going to be the absolute maximum for the game.
However, some structures will have a bit more health. I have seen 40.

***

Idea 1

I make the 3D models like such. There are spots for pins.
A pin can be 1, 2, 4, 8 or even 16 damage.
But I prefer only 3 different pins.
After all, a big unit would be riddled with holes.

Idea 2

The same pins are used. But are designed in such a way, that they can be stacked upon another.

Idea 3

Instead of pins. The player has some sort of wheel under the miniature. But I need to keep in mind that multiple pieces will be in 1 region. It has to be able to fit. A wheel is often much bigger than the initial miniature.

Other ideas are welcome.

***

Then there is the idea of having modular bodies.
But due to design limits. Some bodies can't receive certain weapons.

For example A rifleman is a normal infantry body, worth 1. And a weapon of 1, 2, 3, etc can be added.

But a lower infantry body should be worth 0.8. Weapons of 0.2, 1.2, 2.2, 3.2 etc are the only options now.

So, I am not sure if I should allow modular bodies.
Maybe not allow certain bodies?
This way, less options for the bodies. But also less creation material in order for players to design their faction.

Having modular miniatures also creates a risk of assembling difficulties. Things might break faster.
Costs will be higher too?

Should I allow modular miniatures??

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 03:55
#1
Stormyknight1976
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How about these suggestions

Pebbles or glass gems.
In my Dymino Monsters game I use 10 pebbles for tracking health. 1 pebble equals 10 health points. 10 pebbles equals 100 health points.

In Lone Wolf and Cub game from Mayfair Games in 1989, the game uses Black and White plastic pegs in a card board track system. There are 3 black pegs and 3 white pegs. The track system has 3 tracks:

Honor/Reputation 0-14 start position 6 / goal 9
Vengeance 0-14 start position 6 / goal position 9
Self 0-14 start position 9 / goal position 6

In the Revolution game by Steve Jackson Games the board has a lane tracking system around the main board from 1-100 that uses card board tokens.

Just something to think about.
Jesse

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 11:03
#2
X3M
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My game looks more like a risk game

So, a lot of pieces.

I do can say however, that after each battle. 1 piece will be damaged.

So, for example, if 3x1, 2x2 and 1x4 are hits. And the enemy pieces are 4 health each. 2 are removed and 1 will receive the 3 damage.

On the other hand. A situation might arise where 2 armies face each other with a lot of armor yet crappy weapons. A survivor will take cover behind a healthier ally.
Then it is possible that like 6 pieces all 6 have like 7 damage each on them. In that case, a 1+2+4 damage should be applied somehow.

I don't want to make these pieces to expensive. They are only durable in particular situations.

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 11:54
#3
X3M
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Slices? Dices? Pins? Signs?

An option would be coloured slices.

This way I don't have to take into account, pegs. For the shapes of pieces.

Although, if I was going to have multiple players. Then slices would have been the answer for "colouring" the pieces.

***

Another option would be dices.

Here a mini die would represent the damage. However, this doesn't play well if the units are constantly on the move.
Perhaps a place on the piece for the die to be placed.

Tier 1, health 1, 0 dice
Tier 2/3/4, health 2/4/6, 1 die
Tier 5/6, health 8/12, 2 dice
Tier 7, health 16, 3 dice

Another thing to notice is that the 2 health, needs only to count 1 damage. A miniature die for this doesn't work. So a faceless die would be better...but only for that particular one. And the 8 health has the same going on. A faceless + 6 faced die would be 7 damage.

***

I will keep this one in the list as option.
All units that can take damage. Have a place for 1 pin.
The pins themselves can be stacked.

I am reluctant to have the infantry have a place for this as well.

***

A little sign or flag that can be placed like a pin. The sign or flag has the damage written on it. Not sure if it works though. It is like the dice. But then the flag is carried around.

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 11:55
#4
X3M
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No modular bodies

I scrapped this idea. The pieces would be too small for this.
Even though, Mechs are going to be allowed.

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 17:33
#5
gamesomuch
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Four-bit binary pins

How about having 4 pin holes representing a 4-bit binary number 0-15? Then the same pins can be used everywhere but it's the different holes which determine the value.

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 17:41
#6
X3M
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Oh, I like that idea!!

A double count system.
Where a hole represents 1x, 2x or 3x (or x4).

A pin could simply move to the next hole.
But if the 3x is filled. We got 3x more to go.
Not only that. But if a pin is in a 2x, it can be replaced by a higher pin for the 1x.

Now the big Q would be, what is the most optimal to do?

I got 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 and 16 as health value's.
But some are multiples of x2, x5 or even x10.
And I might even allow squads in the future.

I need to think about this for a while of what the most optimal way might be.
Starting at 1 damage I guess.
The only down side is, that we are still using holes in the miniatures.

But an up side is, that I could do this with flags as well. I just need to figure out what is best.

Still, I wonder if there is a game out there that has stacked pins as an option. So far, I didn't discover it yet.

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 21:29
#7
X3M
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Hmmmm, the list that I came up with.

Damage: pin value x hole value

2 armor
Only 1 hole of 1
1: 1x1

4 armor
A hole of 1 and 2
2: 1x2
3: 1x1 + 1x2

6 armor
A hole of 1 and 2
4: 2x2
5: 1x1 + 2x2

8 armor
A hole of 1 and 2
6: 2x1 + 2x2
7: 3x1 + 2x2

12 armor
A hole of 1, 2 and 3
8: 1x2 + 2x3 or 3x2 + 2x1, just to give you an idea of the freedom.
9: 1x1 + 1x2 + 2x3
10: 2x1 + 1x2 + 2x3
11: 3x1 + 1x2 + 2x3

16 armor
A hole of 1, 2 and 3
12: 3x2 + 2x3
13: 1x1 + 3x2 + 2x3
14: 2x1 + 3x2 + 2x3
15: 3x1 + 3x2 + 2x3

Ok, so multiple holes are still needed. Up to 3. Even if I do this in binary for the pins. 3 holes will remain needed. And it is better to have the value's being lineair.
The maximum damage would be 3x1 + 3x2 + 3x3 = 18
Then I need another hole, which adds 12 more damage.
And a 5th hole would add 15 more damage.

The maximum damages possible:
3 with 1 hole.
9 with 2 holes.
18 with 3 holes. Most pieces are done here.
30 with 4 holes. Squads might end up here.
45 with 5 holes. Squads might end up here.

This one is going into my possibility list.

***

Binairy holes seems to have a bit more room for damage. As long as the pins are lineair.

Binairy pins instead?

1: 1x1
2: 2x1
3: 1x1 + 1x2
4: 2x1 + 1x2
5: 1x1 + 2x2
6: 2x1 + 2x2
7: I need 3 holes here...

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 21:37
#8
X3M
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Trying to picture this idea in exact....what he typed.

gamesomuch wrote:
How about having 4 pin holes representing a 4-bit binary number 0-15? Then the same pins can be used everywhere but it's the different holes which determine the value.

The 4 pins could be in a 2x2 configuration then?

Would smaller units have a 1x1 or 2x1/1x2 configuration?
Maybe 3 holes tops for certain armor values.

0000; 1 Armor; 0 holes
0001; 2 Armor; 1 hole
0010; 4 Armor; 2 holes
0011; 4 Armor; 2 holes
0100; 6 Armor; 3 holes
0101; 6 Armor; 3 holes
0110; 8 Armor; 3 holes
0111; 8 Armor; 3 holes
1000;12 Armor; 4 holes
1001;12 Armor; 4 holes
1010;12 Armor; 4 holes
1011;12 Armor; 4 holes
1100;16 Armor; 4 holes
1101;16 Armor; 4 holes
1110;16 Armor; 4 holes
1111;16 Armor; 4 holes

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Wed, 10/05/2022 - 22:19
#9
jweaves
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Binary

And if you have a way to notate where the 0 is.. for every damage you take, shift a damage pin towards the bottom (toward the 0). If you can't, remove the bottom pin.

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Thu, 10/06/2022 - 10:02
#10
X3M
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Binairy holes + Linear pins

Somehow I think this combination works well. Don't you agree?

After all, the last hole that has the highest notation for that unit, can be multiple's.

Still.... holes.

***

In regards to slices or wheels. Are there slices or wheels out there that have a tracking of health like a twisting disk?

Because I could use coloured disks.
Red = 1
Orange = 2
Yellow = 4
Then a grey disk that is used for the 8, 12 and 16 armors.
The disk could be one of 10. Then the heroes need 2. Since a full disk of 10 with a red disk would mean 11 damage. Which is the maximum for 12 armor.

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Thu, 10/06/2022 - 12:07
#11
X3M
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When the pieces are still flat

Squared slices can have a colour and one corner missing.

The missing corner can be in 4 places of the flat piece.
Top left is 0 damage.
Then it can go to 1, 2 and 3.
An orange can go to 2, 4 and 6.
A yellow can go to 4, 8 and 12.
The maximum damage would be 21...
But we can add more slices anyway.

With a bit of proper 3d design.
The slices could be stackable and hold the piece on top.

This method cannot be used for the miniatures though.
And a accidental 40 health wall would need 3 yellow plus a red one. Then again. I could remove the orange one, since it can be a quartair system this way. The third slice could be 16.
1 2 3 10 11 12 13 20 21 22 23 30 31 32 33 100

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Thu, 10/06/2022 - 14:51
#12
X3M
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Number of miniatures...?

I am designing at the moment for 12 riflemen on 1 location.

With this design proces in mind and a set balance.
What 1 location also could hold are:
8 basic troopers with 2 health each.
6 basic vehicles with 4 health each.
4 basic tanks with 8 health each.
3 basic heroes with 16 health each.

It is an option to cut this in half.
Then we have 6 riflemen or 4 basic troopers or 3 basic vehicles or 2 basic tanks. With 1 basic hero accompied with some other units.

Maybe I should make this step. And thus create more room for health tracking.

While thinking about a miniature being on a holder of some sorts. This same holder could hold the pins instead. Then it is from the front of the unit, to the back, in a binairy system. Same holder could have the players colours. And the plateau that the unit is pasted on, would nicely fit in the holder.

This way, the pieces can be greyscaled (or a paint job for the hobbiest) And then the holder would be in the players colour. If I want to make it really good...
I should have the holder to be open on 2 sides. So that the unit piece can be placed upon. But can also be placed upon another holder with more possible pins. Then again. This would all become a bit too complicated. But I have to allow at least that 2 pieces that are smaller, can fit in a holder for squads.
And any unit should have this option...

Or not? I don't know. One unit on a holder is sufficient.
I guess, simply have the holders in the player colour. And all the same size, thus fitting any unit, despite their size.

I can make the size of a piece uniform. And simply have to make sure that 6 of these can fit in a region.

That said. If multiple pieces can fit on one holder, that would be good too. But if infantry decide to split up. An extra holder should be added. This does mean however, that players KNOW that you are splitting up your forces.

So, the biggest clutch at the moment would be the "troopers" of which 4 basis ones are in the map.
If I design in such a way that 4 holders fit in 1 region. It would be ok. But the "troopers" only have 2 health. So, perhaps have 2 per holder. While 1 damage means, 1 of them is damaged. 2 damage simply would remove one of the troopers from the holder.

***

I think you might not be able to picture a holder. Or what I even mean.

Think of it like a box with a bottom. And the side has an elevated part of which can hold pins.

Now, the biggest issue is, how many can fit in a hexagon?

7 fit in a 232 formation.
But if the side of a hexagon is X, then the side on a square is X/2. And there isn't much room for pins.

If I do a triangle holder. The units should be shaped that way as well.
Then I can have 6 on a hexagon. The 3 corners of the triangle could have holes for the pins. Thus making smaller hexagons for the unit to stand in. I like this idea.
The maximum health will be 8 this way. And perhaps I can design in such a way, that an object needing more than 8 health, will get 2 holders.
A parralellogram with 6 holes will be plenty to keep track of health. Even for a hero, which has 16 health.

The walls will be problematic.
Tier 1 wall costs 3, player can have 4, has 5 health, 1 triangle is enough.
Tier 2 wall costs 9, player can have 1, has 20 health, 3 triangles? It is a wall anyway.
Tier 3 wall costs 6, player can have 2, has 20 health, 2x3 triangles fills the spot, but the spot is already filler by the wall itself in regards of the value.
Tier 4 wall costs 3, player can have 4, has 12 health, now I have run into a problem...

12 health requires 2 triangles. I can have 3 of these on the region. However, tier 4 walls allow for 4.
Let's see what else might pop up.

Tier 5 wall costs 9, player can have 1, has 40 health, here we need 5 triangles...

Ok, I guess I go back to the drawing board.

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Fri, 10/07/2022 - 15:11
#13
X3M
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3D printed slice of a slide puzzle?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/15-puzzle-02.j...

The numbers are hidden. And the player slides till the next damage. It can be 2x2, 3x3 or 4x4. But what matters here is that it is placed under the miniature.
The same can be done for the flat pieces that I might use. And if walls are used. They too can have the same size.

And to top it all off, they can be stacked either way. So if 1 is not enough, simply add a second or third one.

To conclude this. When having miniatures. I still need to take into account how many sliding puzzles even fit in a hexagon.
And.... how much would producing these amass cost?

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Sun, 10/09/2022 - 08:03
#14
gamesomuch
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hp and armor

X3M wrote:

The 4 pins could be in a 2x2 configuration then?

Would smaller units have a 1x1 or 2x1/1x2 configuration?
Maybe 3 holes tops for certain armor values.

0000; 1 Armor; 0 holes
0001; 2 Armor; 1 hole
0010; 4 Armor; 2 holes
0011; 4 Armor; 2 holes
0100; 6 Armor; 3 holes
0101; 6 Armor; 3 holes
0110; 8 Armor; 3 holes
0111; 8 Armor; 3 holes
1000;12 Armor; 4 holes
1001;12 Armor; 4 holes
1010;12 Armor; 4 holes
1011;12 Armor; 4 holes
1100;16 Armor; 4 holes
1101;16 Armor; 4 holes
1110;16 Armor; 4 holes
1111;16 Armor; 4 holes

0000; 0hp
0001; 1hp
0010; 2hp
0011; 3hp
0100; 4hp
0101; 5hp
0110; 6hp
0111; 7hp
1000; 8hp
.........
1111; 15hp

This is how I was imagining it, but then I don't understand your game well enough. Is armor the same as hp?
I was imagining that when a unit takes damage then they lose one or more hp and their pins are rearranged/added/subtracted to form the appropriate number (in binary).

I think it would work well on the bases, provided you can easily get two fingers around the pins to pluck them out or plug them in. Presumably units with more hp are larger with big bases?

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Sun, 10/09/2022 - 08:33
#15
X3M
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Yip

gamesomuch wrote:
Is armor the same as hp?

That is my aim with this game, yes.

gamesomuch wrote:

I was imagining that when a unit takes damage then they lose one or more hp and their pins are rearranged/added/subtracted to form the appropriate number (in binary).

My goal is to have the units take damage instead. This because the right weapon instant kills the right target.
Weaker weapons are the only ones that will deal damage to the Armor in the long run. The most extreme would be 1 damage on 16 Armor.
16 damage on 1 Armor is an overkill. And in some cases, 16 damage on 1 Armor, while the piece has health, means only 1 damage is dealt. After all, the Health are now literly HIT points. You HIT the target and remove that part.
Something like that...

gamesomuch wrote:

I think it would work well on the bases, provided you can easily get two fingers around the pins to pluck them out or plug them in. Presumably units with more hp are larger with big bases?

Yes, indeed. Bigger units are...bigger. I am constantly picturing the pins being in a line formation. A 2x2 box is hard to pluck out and put back in.

There has been a time where I wanted the damage pins to be like blood or flames. After all, the 1 damage is red. The 2 and 4 damage are orange and yellow.
The very first thoughts on the game where only 1 to 8 Armor.
And 1+2+4 would be the maximum damage. Which only occured when Riflemen where fighting Combat Tanks.
With 12 and 16 Armor in the works. I realized that pins might not be the best option...
And the Combat Tank already had 3 holes with that in mind.
So, perhaps stacking the pins, thus 1 pin fits in another pin. Was another way, 1 hole per piece (including the 1 Armor guys, just in case)

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Thu, 11/10/2022 - 18:16
#16
kpres
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You know those little 1 x 1

You know those little 1 x 1 lego blocks?

To show a health bar, I would expect to see a stack of those little 1 x 1 lego blocks, maybe green = 1 point, yellow = 5 points, and red = 25 points.

Lego is patented, but you could design something similar or just place a bulk order of the kind you need.

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Fri, 11/11/2022 - 16:02
#17
X3M
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Perhaps

Another recommendation to me was slots...
Can even be added to the base of a piece. Up right, or sideways...
Simply "click" in a coloured card that is 5 x 10 mm.
Super easy to super mass produce.

Since it is in the base. The base can consist of 2 parts that are pasted together in the production phase.

If I still want the pieces to be grey scale (they might do a paint job themselves). The bases could be separate, and in a players colour for the game.

If it is too complicated. Maybe just have the base as a little box with a 2 mm high wall. And throw in the damage counter. As long as it is easy to take out.

Yeah, I have been thinking....

***

The colours?
I want to make sure, it is colour blind friendly.

The damages would be best to be 1, 2, 4 and in a much later state, 8.
So, I need 4 colours...

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