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Never-ending Game

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Tue, 12/04/2012 - 03:23
drunknmunky
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I am having a problem. I have a game design that plays great except for one problem.
If both players play perfectly (correct move every turn) then the game will never end. I expect someone to always make a mistake eventually but getting to that point is where the issue is.
So I pose a question:
Is the possibility of a never-ending game acceptable in any chance? If so, how small of a chance is acceptable? When do you call a game that is stalemating?

I plan on actually posting the game for play-testing and review later this week, but for now just curious if I have a fatal flaw in the design.

Thanks in advance

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Tue, 12/04/2012 - 07:43
#1
suf
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Some won't want to play forever

I'm pretty sure at least some gamers won't want to play a game forever. You can try:
- rules for a draw;
- adding some uncertainty;
- allow players to pass and then count points.

I'm sure there are other ways but it really depends on the game.

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Tue, 12/04/2012 - 09:24
#2
Izraphael
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genre

What kind of game is it?
I suppose is completely luck-free, am I right?
By the way, a common way to end stalls is the double-pass. When both player pass (1 time, or more times) the game ends.
Another way to "push" players to the end could be a rule saying that you can't step back to your previous move. One of my favourite anyway still remains the inelegant but always working turn counter (not necessarily for the whole game, maybe simply that after X moves without the event Y - a catch, a point scored - the game ends).

Usually, games have something that push toward the endgame: the earnable points end (you reach a limit or you end some resource\points\stuff), a fixed number of turns, and so on.
When I design a game, I usually determine early during the development the endgame condition, along with victory conditions.

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Tue, 12/04/2012 - 14:23
#3
drunknmunky
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Thanks guys. I'll post up

Thanks guys. I'll post up the game tonight after work I think. Keep an eye out for it. I can't figure out a way to force a draw and I've already put in a rule that you can't move the same piece two turns in a row meaning that something will constantly have to change, but I still can't seem to force a win or draw. I'll wait to see what you all have to say tonight

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Wed, 12/05/2012 - 00:45
#4
drunknmunky
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here's the game I'm having

here's the game I'm having the problem with

http://www.bgdf.com/node/7493

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Wed, 12/05/2012 - 05:50
#5
Maaartin
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With everything reversible it's hard...

drunknmunky wrote:
Thanks guys. I'll post up the game tonight after work I think. Keep an eye out for it. I can't figure out a way to force a draw and I've already put in a rule that you can't move the same piece two turns in a row...

I'm afraid that the best move would be to undo the last opponent's move, if it was allowed. When this is forbidden, the best move is probably to undo the second most recent opponent's move. Forbid it too, and the problem shifts one step further.

drunknmunky wrote:
... meaning that something will constantly have to change...

Yes, but there's nothing from preventing changes forth and back. I don't know how to solve it, but maybe a comparison to checkers could help: As long as there are men only, the game must progress as neither movement nor capture can be undone. Now imagine men could move back at will...

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Thu, 12/06/2012 - 05:12
#6
yungaro
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An Idea

(sorry for my english) Ok, as i undestand the main idea, your game create circles, i mean like a math formula, there are many ways to calculate the answer but there´s inly one answer at the end, maybe you must change the point of view, as if your game was made of variables that you can analize separately, there will be independent variables wich cannot change in time or by force (those wich make you never end the game) and are other, dependent variables wich can be changed according to come specific effects or actions taken.
So far both players make their moves with fixed variable values, if you add a value that chages over time (like arcade games) or is forced by a random choice (like poker), or somehow both player has to do something simultaneously like rock, paper scissor, then you are adding a dependant variable, and its value or effect is complety up to each player in a determined momento of the game without redundancy, just like choosing betwen 2 different brands, both are the same on its formula but there is something that makes you prefer one over the another... thats your dependent varible, the choice or at least the felling of having a choice (as magic tricks)

i hope i could help, and i hope that you could understand because my english is not so good...

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Thu, 12/06/2012 - 22:48
#7
Tob
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End

From your other post: Object of the game: first player with one marble (planet) on each of their 7 rings (orbits).

You said the game won't end if both players play perfectly. Then why is there a victory condition?

Wouldn't perfect play cause the first player to win once his last marble is placed in his 7th orbit?

If you have a flaw in the game and the victory condition can't be met, you either have to change the game OR the victory condition.

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Thu, 12/06/2012 - 23:35
#8
drunknmunky
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Tob wrote:From your other

Tob wrote:
From your other post: Object of the game: first player with one marble (planet) on each of their 7 rings (orbits).

You said the game won't end if both players play perfectly. Then why is there a victory condition?

Wouldn't perfect play cause the first player to win once his last marble is placed in his 7th orbit?

If you have a flaw in the game and the victory condition can't be met, you either have to change the game OR the victory condition.

yes, a player wins if the marble is on all 7 of their orbits, but each player is moving the same marbles so getting close to the end each player can move seperate marbles to cancel each other out leading to neither player winning without making a mistake.

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Fri, 12/14/2012 - 14:04
#9
ender7
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What you have so far is

What you have so far is Chinese Checkers where everyone is using the same pieces. This isn't a game because it can't ever end, assuming rational play. It is impossible to win this game assuming competent play - like tic tac toe

I would suggest adding some restrictions that keep with the theme.
For example, have each player start with some amount of energy. If you move a planet along our own orbit, it costs no energy. If you move towards your own sun it costs no energy. But if you move towards the opponent's sun, it costs you one energy. When the last player runs out of energy, the game is over, and whomever has the most planets in orbit wins.

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