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Stop, hammertime!

6 replies [Last post]
Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:17
Mansemat
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This is a question about "when is enough, enough" or "how do you ensure that you're not putting too much into your game."

I'm not necessarily talking about rules but more about content. When do you stop adding stuff, building it out and when do you decide "this is for a possible expansion?"

I'm fleshing out my Evil Genius idea where you ofcourse play a Bond-like Villain. As we're talking now I have 11 player characters to choose from and 20 henchmen and heroes (minions don't have a card on itself-. There are 111 unique missions, 18 buildings (which have an "elite" version on the back) and 11 bases.

Stuff like the different bases and villains is merely there so players can choose (i also prefer to keep everything as open as possible; example: there's no "steal the eifel tower" since I prefer players being able to choose whatever monument they're stealing and where) and the missions I think are there for replay value and completeness.

But have I gone to far (do i ever not go to far I often think)? And how do you lot decide that "enough is enough" and when does "this is expansion material" coming up? How do the real game manufacturers decide this... Can't all be playtesting right?

Anyhoo, would love to hear about your thoughts and maybe I can be pushed towards a certain route

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Mon, 03/03/2014 - 09:45
#1
schattentanz
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Go for it!

I created a skirmish game where you can create your fighter select from 225 skills.
Right from the start.
I'd say, this decision is just a question of taste: Some players are slain by lots of info right from the beginning, others dig them.

I'd say, it is not so much the quantity of Information that matters.
In my game, I explained how skills work in general. This explanation qualifies for each and every skill. So I could add thousands more, without making the game any more complicated.

The same is true for your characters / henchmen / and so on: as long as the "items" of each "class" work in a similar fashion, everything is fine.

Kind regards,
Kai

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Fri, 03/21/2014 - 10:55
#2
Zag24
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Based on replayability

I'm going to differ with the previous responder, a little. If you overwhelm with choices early, I think it becomes frustrating. I don't like it when, in my first play of a game, I feel like I have to make key decisions that are going to affect the entire game, and there are too many choices to have any hope of understanding the ramifications.

If its a game that takes only 15-20 minutes, I don't care so much. I'll just pick one and go. If your game is more like 90 minutes or more, then I'll want fewer options for that initial choice, at least for new players. So there are two good options, IMO.
1. Have the player characters assigned randomly, with an advanced rule that players can choose. (In our group, for this sort of thing we often play random assignment, but everyone has one 'reject' available. If they aren't happy with what they got, they can get a random choice from all the ones that are left; but then they have to keep it.)
2. Suggest a smaller set of characters for new players to choose from, explaining that these are just as powerful, but easier to get started with.

With 111 missions, I'm guessing that they are not especially re-playable? If, in game #2, I were to get the same mission that I saw my friend get in game #1, and that wouldn't bother me, then 111 is too many. (It also depends on how many missions each person typically performs in a game. I'm assuming in the neighborhood of 8-12.) If some missions are more interesting than others, then you should go through them and put them in 3 piles: really interesting, average, less interesting. Now throw out everything in that last pile.

I don't think that there is any problem with already thinking about an expansion. This is especially true if you have some mechanic that you're undecided on, and there are only some characters and missions that rely on it. That's a perfect candidate for an expansion, simplifying your primary game but giving new options in the expansion.

The other thing you might want to do with some of the missions and characters is to reserve them for advanced kickstarter supporters. For instance, $30 pledge gets you the game, but $45 gets you the game plus the extra mission pack and 2 additional characters with their minions.

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Fri, 03/21/2014 - 15:50
#3
X3M
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Joined: 10/28/2013
If you look at MtG, you

If you look at MtG, you notice how new players first can start with a starters deck. Which mainly only contains simple creatures and other spells. After that, they can expand almost infinitely. And there is plenty of choice of combinations of cards once a player has gathered enough.

For several war based games, you get a basic board, and can buy expands later on. Those expands contain new terrain and often new upgrades or other stuff. A good example in this is Axis n Allies.

For my board game, I have included a list of units for beginners (No damage modifications, agility and accuracy). After that, small groups are added that keep the game complete but complexify the game play.

Risk allows players to choose if they use mission cards or not.
Risk also allows players to choose if they are allowed to conquer the entire world in one turn, or just 1 territory in one turn. This last one goes slowly and I have noticed, I am the only one playing with that rule. But I can say, the difficulty rises for a player to think and make decisions.

1 game can contain several levels of difficulty of game play. It is up to the designer to make a clear line between these difficulties.

If you have a game where there is a techtree. Than this techtree could be slow enough for players to have less choices at the start of a game than later on. Especially if the techtree is fixed and does not allow players to choice in what direction they research first.

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Fri, 03/21/2014 - 16:15
#4
Mansemat
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Missions won't be elaborate,

Missions won't be elaborate, it's merely a means to an end. A quick count of "minions" vs a requirement and certain bonusses really. I think it all would take less than 10 seconds to perform a mission.

The missions will be "open" so they won't say "you steal the mona lisa". I like the idea of letting players fill in what they steal rather then force it upon them and thus restricting it. I'm, painfully, aware however that many people might not have the "creativity" to do that but hey... They can learn.

Mission will come out at a rate of three at teh beginning but players can use minions to get more if so desired. The first player then can, if he or she so chooses, to pick one first. Players following will do the same but won't have as much choice.
There are 5 types of missions ranging from easy to very hard.

As for the Kickstarter... I wouldn't know where to start with one even though I'm very willing to do one. It would still be difficult i think to decide what is a base game and what is an expansion maybe... Maybe playtesting would solve this though??

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Sat, 03/22/2014 - 00:14
#5
questccg
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Different opinion

I have another *consideration* when designing my games:

  • Limit the amount of content such that the game is inexpensive to produce.

If you need to know anything about the BUSINESS of tabletop games, you need to know the PRICE STRUCTURE of retail games. I have to credit this information to other designers who got me to think about how much it will COST to produce my game and the various players in traditional distribution and sales.

So I'll recap that information in a short form:

  1. Consumer pays 100% for the game.
  2. The retailer (Store owner) pays 50% for the game.
  3. The distributor pays 40% for the game.
  4. The publisher earns 20% profit for selling the game.
  5. The manufacturer earns 20% for producing the game.

Now if you take your game and give it a MSRP of $30.00 (which is not unreasonable) you get the following:

  1. Consumer pays $30.00.
  2. Retailer pays $15.00.
  3. Distributor pays $12.00.
  4. Publisher earns $6.00 of profit.
  5. Manufacturing costs $6.00.

So you should work backwards from your MSRP and see if you can get your game made for the Manufacturing costs. Believe it or not it is possible - but not for an individual. Publishers can get very competitive pricing but some US dealers can offer pretty decent quotes (close but not exactly).

I think when you figure out how much you think your game should SELL for, that will give you the exact cost it should be to make it. If you CANNOT produce your game for that cost, well you are going to have problems because there is a whole CHAIN of distribution and retailing that follows.

Therefore when considering when ENOUGH is ENOUGH, you should try to figure out if your game has sufficient components (pawns, dice, cards, rulebook, etc.) that make the game a WHOLE and trim any and all EXTRAs that can maybe be used at a later time for game expansions or other game editions.

Personally I like to break up my themes by editions and have the possibility to creating new perspectives (such as a new race or new scenarios) in the game's universe. I don't do very much world-building but I try to imagine the game being more than just a single effort.

Best of luck with your game!

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Sat, 03/22/2014 - 09:02
#6
lewpuls
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When to stop? As I have said

When to stop? As I have said before, "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Another form, about Japanese gardening actually, is "Your garden is not complete until there is nothing else that you can remove."

"The multiplier" is how much you multiply manufacturing cost (including shipping to distributors) by to get MSRP. 6 used to be the standard, I see 5 now quite often (as in above example), have heard as high as 8.

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