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Symmetry vs Asymmetry

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silasmolino
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Joined: 02/01/2013

I am currently working on a sci fi wargame that is symmetrical, but have been asked why it's not asymmetrical? My answer is because it was never planned to be asymmetrical. But because the question has been posed, I start to question the design theory behind this genre of gaming: the war game.

The game is designed for two players and is to be played in under 1 hour. As war games go, these rules are not complex. I am worried about complicating the rules.

With that said my question to the group is this:

Is symmetry a factor when purchasing a game?

Is asymmetry naturally better than symmetry?

What examples (other than chess/checkers) of games illustrate the wonderful world of symetrical baord gaming?

What examples illustrate a game that would have benefitted from asymmetry instead of symmetry?

Does symmetry naturally limit replayability?

Any comments outside of these questions is appreciated.

As a note, I probably should just invest additional time into creating an asymmetrical game; ie new attack/defense/movement. Right now the game is fun, but could signifigantly benefit from more time.

Dralius
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Balance is an issue for me

Balance is an issue for me not symmetry. You can have abilities or forces that are balanced but different.

Symmetry is not a factor in my decision to purchase a game so it’s probably not surprising that I don’t think one is better than the other.

Other than factors like variable setups replayability comes from emergent complexity. How the combination of moves creates a wide variety of possible strategies or ways to pursue them.

larienna
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It is more interesting to

It is more interesting to have asymmetric forces, but it's way more complicated to balance. So this is why many games only gives 1 special power to each faction instead of having complete asymmetrical empires.

Asymmetry would be easier to implement in a more chaotic game where balance is not much of an issue. But for heavy strategy deterministic games, it is very hard.

JustActCasual
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Variety

I would say it's almost impossible to make a purely symmetrical game: as soon as one player takes initiative it creates new and different choices carrying forward. What we're really talking about when we talk about the replay value that asymmetry provides is a variety of play experience, and there are many different ways to provide that.

On the far end of the scale are games where the two players are essentially playing different games: I'm building skyscrapers while you're trying to knock them down with Godzilla. Of course the play experience will be different if we switch roles! The less extreme version of this that we usually see is in special player powers or in varying setups (especially in wargames). The upside of this method of creating variety of play is that it is relatively easy to introduce: the downside is that it is largely arbitrary, and the variety of play experiences is limited to the number of different options you design.

Chance elements are a very common way of offering variety of play, are relatively easy to introduce, and provide a large number of possible play experiences relative to effort.

The hardest way to introduce variety of play is through depth, but it rewards with a nearly infinite variety of play experiences: games like Chess or Go may be 'symmetrical', but every time a player plays them they come away with a different experience depending on the gameplay itself but also their understanding and skill. Forcing arbitrary asymmetry on deep games could actually reduce their playability, as you shoehorn players into shallower strategies.

Is a variety of play a factor in whether I buy a game? Absolutely. Both the variety of the gameplay within the market (very few people want to shell out money for a clone), and variety of gameplay withing the game (I want to take it off the shelf more than once).

(Postscript) It's also worthwhile to think about using arbitrary asymmetry to seed the game: if it takes 2 hours for enemy forces to engage and start interacting, jumping players forward with an asymmetric setup can do a lot of good for your pacing. Essentially arbitrary asymmetry is making choices for the players: if they were boring choices, you might as well do that work for them. Likewise, choosing a character force that's designed for a certain strategy at the start is a lot more fun than grinding your symmetric force to be capable of the strategy that intrigues you. For me, anyways.

lewpuls
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Greater variety and

Greater variety and replayability in asymmetry.

Symmetric is easier to design/balance.

You might want to read:
http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/14850/looking-at-game-design-as-ways-o...

silasmolino
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Joined: 02/01/2013
Great find Lewpuls

I read through it and it really clarifies great mechanics in asymmetry.

I suppose that asymmetry does not define fun for a game, but it sounds like it helps.

MarkKreitler
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Chocolate vs Peanut Butter

I agree with Dralius, but have something to add. Symmetry vs asymmetry isn't always a straightforward question -- especially in games where topology matters.

Consider "Axis and Allies." Unit abilities are symmetric, but starting positions are not. I'm not a huge fan of the game, but I've played enough to know that America doesn't play the same as Britain, or Germany the same as Russia. War games -- especially those not bent on historical simulation -- often introduce "partial asymmetry" of this sort. Your game sounds like it might fall into this category.

Good luck!

larienna
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Anybody has some quick idea

Anybody has some quick idea on how to balance effectively asymmetric forces besides playtesting intensively?

I need to design 3 unique faction with each 9 unique units and I don't know much where to start besides intuition.

JustActCasual
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Well, there's no replacement

Well, there's no replacement for playtesting.

A good place to start from would be to give every faction a primary and secondary strategic focus.
If you then work so each strategy has counters to each other strategy you can set up a nice RPS dynamic: to keep it more interesting make it go one way better than another (A beats B beats C beats A usually, but each still has SOME counters to each). In terms of unit breakdown it might be something like:

1 Counter unit to primary Predator strategy
2 Counter units to primary and secondary Prey strategies
4 Units centred around own primary strategy
2 Units centred around secondary strategy

Obviously the units should also fill basic curve and utility roles at the same time, but if you use this framework you should have at least 3 strategies available to each faction (counter, primary, secondary) and no faction should become overly dominant with the inclusion of the counter units as a pressure valve.

larienna
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I somewhat like the idea of

I somewhat like the idea of primary and secondary strategy. For example, there are special power up cards that I want to be unique for each of the 6 factions.

I made an inventory possible power up cards, now the problem is how to distribute them among the faction. I thought of making groups card and assigning groups to various faction.

But the fact that seeing a group as a strategy and trying to make relations with other faction's strategy could give me a different point of view than just distributing groups.

Also to allow variety, I could have 3 level of strategy where the firsts levels has more cards than the last levels. So if a faction as a certain strategy as a primary strategy, it will have more cards in their deck about it. Why the faction that has it as a third level strategy will have much less cards.

But this way, it prevents the bug that each faction is focused on one thing and nobody else have access to those abilities.

Procylon
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Joined: 06/27/2012
Pasting this from the other

Pasting this from the other conversation in Larienna's thread.

I think symmetry is key at least in some areas for a few reasons. Balance is the obvious reason. Another is that humans are drawn to symmetry, since most of the world(especially biological) is symmetrical in some way or another. Another is that symmetry can simplify some of the more complicated mechanics that you don't necessarily want players to either focus on, or spend too much brain power or game time thinking about. For instance, all characters use life points. If you mess with that symmetry be prepared for players to be asking all kinds of questions. If you planned for that, that can be good asymmetry, but if not then you may be over complicating your game.

I believe asymmetry is best used on the aspects of your game that you want to be most appealing and take up most of your player's time. The Melee/Healer/Ranged trinity is a classic example of asymmetric design at work. 3 unique concepts that can be hard to balance but are designed to draw and/or keep the player's interest. There is a lot of symmetry underlying that Trinity of course. Skill points, Life Points, Damage Types, etc. Mana, unless the designers want to introduce asymmetry by giving the classes different types of energy.

In order to keep the complexity of the game in check, you may make one system symmetrical just so you can make another asymmetrical, if that is where you want to draw the attention.

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