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Team-based gaming

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mistre
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So with the great success of the game Pandemic (and Arkham Horror and LOTR before it); I can guarantee many of the top designers out there are currently looking at designing co-op games (I believe Faduitti already has).

Looking beyond this trend, what could be next? What is going to be the next thing in boardgaming that will make it feel fresh and new? What came to mind and something that has been overlooked by designers are team-based games. In the realm of Many vs One games, there has been some recent popular titles (Shadows over Camelot, Fury of Dracula, Scotland Yard, etc.). While I think this area will see more games, it is already somewhat established. But one area that has almost been completely overlooked in a euro-style game are partnership games (2 vs 2, 3 vs 3, etc). Outside of trick-taking card games and party games, I can't think of many games that were specifically designed for team gaming.

What I am trying to figure out is this area a true undiscovered area of gaming or is it being ignored for good reason? One reason that I can see designers not wanted to design a partnership game is that it limits the game to only play with 4+ players. However, 4 players is seen by many as a sweet spot of gaming. If you designed an excellent game that only played with 4,6,8 - I guarantee it would get played. Another potential reason that partnership games have not been developed is the potential of one player in the team dominating the decisions. I can't help but think that you could design mechanics that would prevent this from happening or at least dull its effects (hidden information, player roles specific to each player, etc.).

So, unless someone proves me otherwise, I think a 2 vs 2 partnership euro game has huge potential as a new trend. All it would take is one well-known designer to have this idea and design a good game and I think it could take off (like co-op games are now).

Any other ideas? What type of game would work the best as 2 vs 2? This might make a good design requirement for a GDS and could generate a lot of innovative ideas.

MatthewF
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Team Communication

I would love to see some great team board games!

In partnership card games part of the "fun" is that the partners usually aren't supposed to talk to each other about what they have or what they want, with the exception of some of the covert signaling during bidding in Bridge and such. In a cooperative game, everyone can talk to everyone else, so that works, too.

In a team boardgame, though, communication would be the tricky part to solve, I think. If you just talk then the other team(s) knows what you're planning to do, but if you don't talk then there's less teamwork. I can imagine some mechanisms that involve covert signaling that might be fun (passing each other cards that are like "attack country B" or such), but otherwise it seems tricky. Solving that would probably be the key to a successful game.

fecundity
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Victory conditions

I don't think partnership games could really constitute a trend.

An everyone-for-themselves game requires different possible victory outcomes, one for each player. Losing just means someone else getting the victory. A cooperative game has to be fundamentally different, because everybody wins together. So losing has to be redefined.

Partnership games are more like everyone-for-themselves games. There has to be a distinct victory outcome for each partnership. Losing usually just means some other partnership winning. This means that you can change almost any everyone-for-themselves game into a partnership game by letting two players win if one of them does, or by adding together their scores. So, naturally, there are lots of games that can be played either with partners or everyone-for-themselves. Many of them actually play better with partners, even though you don't think of them as partner games. (To take one mass market example: Star Wars Epic Duels.)

Partnership only becomes an ineliminable part of games that are about communication. In Bridge, this happens in the bidding. In games like Password and Pictionary, one partner has to guess what the other already knows. It might be cool to make a board game that involves communication some integral way, but I can't see it being a trend. For most games, they can be played with or without partners-- and so it makes marketing sense to sell them as such.

Zzzzz
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Only one comment, how many

Only one comment, how many designers do you think are actively working on such a game?

Gizensha
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...I'd hardly call the

...I'd hardly call the bidding in bridge to be covert communication. The various bidding systems are practically formal languages about a specific domain (bridge hands).

For example: (Assume passes for the opposition) [Might be slightly inaccurate, it's been years since I played, and will vary in some of the specifics (The point distribution of the initial 1NT bid being a major one where different partnerships differ)]

1NT "I have 12-14 points and a balanced suit distribution."
2C "What's you're major?"
2H "I have four or more hearts, but might have the same amount of spades."
2S "I have four spades, how many do you have?"
3NT "I don't have four spades, and am at the upper end of the points I stated."
Pass "Game in no trumps it is, then."

And there is nothing at all subtle or covert about a 2C opening bid.

The covert communication occurs in the card play of the defenders. For example, discarding low is "don't lead this suit", while discarding high is "lead this suit", etc.

Generally, I think the ability for the partners to communicate but in a pre-defined way, not necessarily codified by the game itself (Bridge's isn't, but there are only a few bidding systems that are in use), but developable by the players. This would have to not be forced by the game, but present in the game itself, so as to be natural ("Uhh. What? I'm only allowed to communicate in this game with the numbers 1-7 and the words Tree, Woof, Meow and Alpacatacalaca?")

Remember, the use of the bidding in bridge to communicate about the contents of your hand came about because of the need to communicate about the hands beyond "I'd like to play in spades, and can make about 7 tricks." the fact that talking isn't allowed, and the fact that the a limited vocabulary was already present, just undefined in meaning. To enable that sort of communication to occur in a partnership board-game, you'd need something that needs talking about, to ban table-talk, and something independent but connected which can be used to communicate about it. Then, if the game gets popular, a formalised communication system will develop over time, and in the meantime people will communicate with the equivalent of broad pictures ("I bid 3 Woof 2 Tree, which mechanically means that me and my partner need to win three dogs and two apples this round to get anything, but between me and my partner it means that I want her to send one of her dogs to the orchard.")

clearclaw
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Forms of cooperation/collusion

Partnership games, like cooperative games, are negotiation games. The players within a partnership negotiate with each other to form the collusive patterns and thus the efficiency required for victory. Bridge bidding is a perfect example of this. So are the standard meta-game conversations among trailing players about how to curb a leader in a more typical multi-player game.

Partnership negotiation doesn't have to be explicit or as blatant as Bridge bidding. Implicit negotiation (see Negotiated dissection ) works just as well. Moves as offers. Much as in King of Siam (a notable recent partnership and area-influence game), partners may negotiate through the course of the game, not by talking to each other and thus potentially suffering the Alpha/bully problem, but by making moves which offer support for mutually profitable collusive patterns. Make it a rule that partners may not talk about the game -- let their moves on the game board do their talking for them.

Many other games, recent and not-so-recent use implicit negotiation to form ad-hoc emergent and short-lived partnerships among players. Most famous is perhaps Gunboat No-press Diplomacy. Others include the afore-mentioned King of Siam (3 player), Wabash Cannonball, Pampas Railroads, and The Riding Series (Winsome Games has had something of a streak in this area).

ObNote: The primary complaint against such temporary emergent partnership games is that players are not in control of their own destiny and that they cannot win without directly exploiting the willing cooperation of other players. For some this is repugnant.

seo
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dobles tennis

I have a tennis card game that works both as a 2-player game or 4-players game, just like real tennis. There's not much to talk between teammates, though, you basically cover your partner when he can't return a ball in his turn.

I think the main problem with designing (or rather, selling) a teams game might be that you are (likely) going to need a specific number of players, instead of a full range. But that happens with other non-team games too, and there's always the chance to design a game that has a team variant but can also be played with individual players, or a game where teams can have variable member amounts (IIRC Redcap was working on a Fantasy Soccer game with two teams of variable size).

MatthewF
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...I'd hardly call the
...I'd hardly call the bidding in bridge to be covert communication.

[followed by 400 additional words on the topic, and then in the next post:]

Partnership games, like cooperative games, are negotiation games. The players within a partnership negotiate with each other to form the collusive patterns and thus the efficiency required for victory. Bridge bidding is a perfect example of this.

And yet you understood exactly what I meant. Amazing.

fecundity
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Emphasis on the covert

I think Gizensha's point was that bridge bidding is not covert, not that it isn't communication. In traditional bridge tournaments, players were required to submit a card explaining what conventions they were using. This meant that their opponents could learn just as much from their bidding as their partner could. (I don't know if they still do that.)

MatthewF
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Oops

Oops, I thought both posts were by clearclaw. Please ignore my previous comment.

mistre
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Observations so far

Thanks for all of the comments so far. Some observations:
(because I don't know how to use the quote feature - please let me know how to do this anyone - I will just cut and paste quotes).

fecundity said:
"Partnership games are more like everyone-for-themselves games. There has to be a distinct victory outcome for each partnership. Losing usually just means some other partnership winning. This means that you can change almost any everyone-for-themselves game into a partnership game by letting two players win if one of them does, or by adding together their scores. So, naturally, there are lots of games that can be played either with partners or everyone-for-themselves."

This is true, but not really the point I was trying to make. I am wondering if certain game mechanisms can be created to design a game that ONLY works as a partnership game. It should be required that a player work with his team member in order to win. The team that works together more efficiently should beat a team that doesn't work together as efficiently. If you think about it, the basis of many eurogames is trying to being efficient and timing your decisions. It must be possible to design a game that requires you to work with another permanent partner in developing an efficiency engine.

Some vague ideas on how this could work within the framework of a eurogame:

  • having each partner only able to perform some functions, they would have to rely on their partner for other functions. example: a racing game in which one partner drives/controls speed, and the other navigates.
  • collect shared resources, but have individual consumption of resources.
  • choosing from amongst a set of roles with your teammate, but if you select a role, your teammate can't that round.
  • To me, it seems like there is a lot of undiscovered area to explore in making a partnership game work that has yet to be explored. I think no one has really taken the initiative to do this because there has been no real need to do so. But as eurogames start to become stale and feel too samey, something like this might occur to freshen up the genre for someone who doesn't want to play full cooperative games. I guess my point is that there is definitely a niche to fill that hasn't been filled and the first designer that comes along and makes an excellent partnership game will likely have great success like Pandemic has for co-op games. Hence, I think it is worthwhile for us at BGDF to look at how to design a good partnership game.

    Clearclaw said:
    "Much as in King of Siam (a notable recent partnership and area-influence game), partners may negotiate through the course of the game, not by talking to each other and thus potentially suffering the Alpha/bully problem, but by making moves which offer support for mutually profitable collusive patterns. Make it a rule that partners may not talk about the game -- let their moves on the game board do their talking for them."

    Thanks for bringing this game to my attention. I was not aware that it could play as a partnership game. What is encouraging is one reviewer's comments - "I have only played with 4, and the experience to me is fantastic. I guess it is just different to other number, because here you have the chance of playing not for you, but for your partner, maybe sacrifiying yourself. It's just a different way, but to me, really enjoyable."

    Incidentally, I just realized that partnerships is listed as a mechanic on BGG. Doing a game search for ranked games with this mechanic yielded many games (106 to be exact). However, if you take out all party games, trick-taking and climbing card games, and games that only have temporary partnerships (I would call these alliances), then there is probably only a handful of games that qualify for what I am referring to.

    Gizensha
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    It was, indeed. I think you

    It was, indeed.

    I think you still need to submit a card explaining what conventions you're using at tournaments, and possibly league play, although the drives at the club I used to play at just used the alert for any conventions, and a standard 'if you're not using basic ACOL, tell the other side and alert pretty much everything beforehand' (i.e. - The half dozen or so pairs that played ACOL five card majors needed to alert almost every opening bid that wasn't 1NT)

    Bridge does have covert communication, as I mentioned, it's just in the card play (discarding low for 'don't lead this suit', discarding high for 'lead this suit', etc) rather than the bidding.

    lclaxvp
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    "Partnerships"

    mistre wrote:
    • collect shared resources, but have individual consumption of resources.
    • choosing from amongst a set of roles with your teammate, but if you select a role, your teammate can't that round.


    I thought I would point out that both have these have been used, but, in a much smaller role, never as the main mechanic to a game. Are there any other mechanics that could actually be taken out of games and used as the main mechanic rather than a small one?
    Like Clearclaw suggested, you could use a no talking rule so that the game truly does the talking. But, this option isn't everyone's cup of tea . I think communication builds interaction and allows players to solidify partnerships. A similar idea (one that comes from Shadows over Camelot) would be to implement a rule to talk in "game terms". For instance, players could give out information that they've gained but couldn't tell players/partners that they have a 7 card in their hand.

    If I may ask Mark, don't you think Memoir '44 or Battlelore could be called a partnership game? What do you think of those two games? How are they different from what you are trying to accomplish Those are two examples, that I can think of, that include the option for multiple players to split into teams and play against each other.

    Hope I brought a bit of insight, I haven't posted about games in awhile :)
    Justin

    mistre
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    Reply to Justin

    I have not played either Memoir or Battlelore, so I couldn't tell you exactly. How different is the team game from just playing 1 vs 1? What I am really looking for is something where the teamwork is so interwoven into the game that it becomes an integral part of it and not just something added on because you can. Like fecundity said before, just about any multi-player game can be turned into a team game, by dividing the players into teams and adding up the scores.

    I really only have vague clues on how to accomplish such a thing and even then I am not entirely sure how it would work, so that is why I brought it up for discussion rather than bang my head against the wall trying to design a game around the idea...

    lclaxvp
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    Reply to Mark

    Having only played Memoir '44 I couldn't tell you how similar Battlelore plays. Reading the rules though leads me to believe the two games are quite similar in their mechanics.

    In Memoir '44 (no expansions) team play allows for up to three players per team. With two players per team, partners share order cards while one player controls (commands/orders) the central battlefield and the second player controls the two flanks. In six players games (3 players per team) one players controls a part of the battlefield (center, left, or right). The rulebook also explains that the players choosing to play the center (in either the two or three player option) is the Commander in Chief and is the only player allowed to play tactic cards.

    The idea works quite well in my opinion, but it also merely the option of team play described by Fecundity: a two player game converted into a team game when you have more available players.

    Having said that, I think that a purely team game could work well. I'm having trouble thinking of a theme that would benefit from the use of teams however. Sports like dodgeball or tennis (Seo has this one set) come to mind. Spacebattles and zombies are also alternatives.

    What if, however, you had players taking the role of running nations. Each nation (like real life) would have different departments (department of defense, department of education, etc...) and players would be team up, take control of a department, and work together in their nation to defeat another. Money would be a common/shared item used by all departments in the nation, that way, communication would be key between the nations on issues like attacking, schooling, and possibly even religion. A Cold War theme would fit well, with one team playing as the United States and the other as Russia.

    Things to think about!
    Justin

    Joe
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    Not a eurogame, but still...

    Not a eurogame, but still a game that I can think of in which teamwork/cooperation/partnership is an integral part of the game would be Axis and Allies. The players on each team could operate independently, but they damage their chances of success if they don't cooperate (more so for the Allies than for the Axis).

    Axis and Allies: Pacific is many-vs.-one, but it would make tons of sense for the roles of Japan to be split between two players, one purchasing and controlling naval units, the other purchasing and controlling army units. The two players would collect shared resources, but compete for access to it.

    lclaxvp wrote:
    What if, however, you had players taking the role of running nations. Each nation (like real life) would have different departments (department of defense, department of education, etc...) and players would be team up, take control of a department, and work together in their nation to defeat another. Money would be a common/shared item used by all departments in the nation, that way, communication would be key between the nations on issues like attacking, schooling, and possibly even religion. A Cold War theme would fit well, with one team playing as the United States and the other as Russia.

    This general idea (players controlling different departments of a single nation) is greatly appealing to me. I like the way it gets at organizational issues instead of treating states as having monolithic interests.

    mistre
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    Krakow 1325AD

    I just came across this game on BGG by happenstance. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37461

    It is a 4-p only partnership eurogame! This is the type of game that I was thinking of when I originally brought up the topic of partnership games as something that could be really original and neat. I hope that the gameplay can live up to the promise, but it definitely sounds intriguing. Also, the artwork looks fantastic - I love this type of medieval humor. Check out the website at http://www.krakowgame.com/en/news.html

    Now I can sleep well at night knowing I don't have to design such a game...

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