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The very broken LCG model

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questccg
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Unless...

The POD gives you the cards "unsorted" and it is your job to assess your inventory when you get the batch of cards.

And because it's POD, you can make smaller, more costly, print runs for cards that are popular and more valuable for players. I think that's how to generate "collectability" (or rarity) in terms of demand.

Obviously some groups of cards will cost more money than others too. Like take "Nobles". They are the "work-horses" of the game's engine. They are obviously more expensive than say most "Equipment" cards (for example).

I have a universal numbering system with 12 alphanumeric codes. Those are the SKUs for each card and easy to read on the card itself.

But generally speaking, because batches are unsorted, it is preferable to go with smaller batches because of the need to "re-sort" a box of cards.

FrankM
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Hmmmm

questccg wrote:
The POD gives you the cards "unsorted" and it is your job to assess your inventory when you get the batch of cards.

This sounds almost like LEGO Pick A Brick. Even at their scale, every one of those orders is hand-picked and hand-packed.

Mosker
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A different resource: time.

Even with a model similar to the new VS system, consider the hours needed--especially getting sufficient playtesters to explore styles, combinations. Can you organize an army? Hit the conventions? Fund tournaments?

You may wish to reach out to the https://www.exodus-cards.com/ for insight and advice as they are the closest thing I know of to a model that's at least functioning (at what level, I have no idea, but they haven't vanished) without a big company behind them.

questccg
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I'm far from it...

My focus is still on designing the "core". How to play the game(?), What are the different cards(?), What the objective of the game is(?), etc.

I'm definitely taking my time... Because it's difficult to design something "modular" with different WIN strategies and play styles.

I guess the point is this: if I can design a COOL "engine" that WORKS... That will be an amazing accomplishment. It means that the mechanics I have chosen work together and that's a very important start.

I looked at Exodus (rather quickly) ... I will investigate more tomorrow. Thanks for the link... I will definitely spend some time learning more about what it is that they offer.

Designing a GOOD game is the priority. And I've gotten that opinion from other designers too... You want to have a GOOD "core" something solid and capable of having a few different play-styles or combinatorics that allow different people to play using different strategies.

Stormyknight1976
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Check this page out

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/living-card-games/

LCG’s are not broken.

It’s offers you more diverse and extended game play onto the game world.

When I and my co - founder of Twin Eagle Graphics Independent Game Studio have talked about the format for Dymino Monsters we looked at all of the options available to add to the game.

At first years before (2004) I was going to have Dymino Monsters as a CCG. Because you can collect the cards to play the game etc. The game was never even touching the TCG format. At one time during the games infancy, the format was pretty much a mixed format.

But it was not satisfying to me nor the game. Then in 2011-2012 I heard about Fantasy Flight Games and they had a new format. LCG.

I truly liked the idea of having 80 cards for the core deck. Dymino Monsters game: Check.

I how ever did not like reading the rules to the game where you have 4 cards of the same type to do 1 effect. This is what I remember reading back in 2011-2012. Don’t judge me.

I didn’t like this rule. It stumped me. 4 cards of the same artwork to do 1 effect during gameplay???

I still how ever liked the new term. So I have adopted the term for Dymino Monsters. I also kept the 80 card format, but I am allowing all cards to be used as a solo effect or up to 9 card effects in the weapon skill techniques set. This game or it’s effects does not use same card combinations for 1 effect.

Here is another link to support half of my statement in the header.
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2014/11/5/a-new-stage-of-growth/

In the beginning of design, I have decided not to have the commons , rares , super rares ,
all of that type of element in Dymino Monsters. The mechanic to and for Dymino Monsters is so well balanced.

Back to the LCG term.

During the years of using the LCG term, I couldn’t use it due to Fantasy Flight Games branding so I changed it to fit my game as a rebranding the term. I have come up with the Novel Customizable Card Game. But then found out that even though you can customize the chapter decks by combining any of the many chapter decks available in the game. So this became a Novel Deck Construction Game.

Stormy

Once again, the LCG format is not broken.

questccg
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Stormyknight1976

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
...Once again, the LCG format is not broken.

I think you misunderstand. It's broken in the sense that IF you only WANT 5 cards out of an LCG expansion, you must pay upwards of $45 USD for those cards.

The LCG format forces you to buy the ENTIRE set, just to get a few cards you may be interested in owning...

That's why it is "broken". It's not really better than a normally expanded product where you get everything that an expansion offers.

But in terms of an expansion, you know that you are buying a whole product. LCG falsely leads people to believe that it's more flexible, better than boosters. But the pure fact of the matter is that it's bullsh!t... It's an expansion with a fancy acronym. Nothing that I see as improving upon what is available options for consumers...

But you can think what you want. For the reasons stated above, to me the model is broken... Cheers.

Jay103
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questccg wrote:But you can

questccg wrote:
But you can think what you want. For the reasons stated above, to me the model is broken... Cheers.

Well, your word “broken” sounds like “expensive” to me. But what it ISN’T is gambling. M:tg is gambling, and LCG replaces that with certainty. It probably doesn’t make it cheaper on average, but it removes luck from the purchase.

Not sure why that merits a registered trademark, but there you have it.

FrankM
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Not an excuse but an explanation

Jay103][quote=questccg wrote:
Not sure why that merits a registered trademark, but there you have it.

My understanding is that WotC started it by trying to trademark the term Collectible Card Game.

polyobsessive
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TM

Jay103 wrote:
Not sure why that merits a registered trademark, but there you have it.

The mechanism/system/distribution method is not protected, only the term, allowing FFG to uniquely identify this as their range of games with this common distribution method. Trademarking the name of their range seems fair -- it's not as if people were using the term beforehand, or can't find alternatives.

Jay103
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polyobsessive wrote:Jay103

polyobsessive wrote:
Jay103 wrote:
Not sure why that merits a registered trademark, but there you have it.

The mechanism/system/distribution method is not protected, only the term, allowing FFG to uniquely identify this as their range of games with this common distribution method. Trademarking the name of their range seems fair -- it's not as if people were using the term beforehand, or can't find alternatives.

Makes sense.

questccg
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Another reason

Jay103 wrote:
Well, your word “broken” sounds like “expensive” to me.

Why I say "broken", is because every person I talk to says: "Do an LCG not a CCG/TCG." They ALL say that... But have absolutely 0% understanding what the LCG acronym stands for. If you look into the "business" model, you'll find what any Game Designer does, want to create Expansions for their own products. That's fine.

But the LCG model also proposes the use of "Fixed" Boosters or content that is periodic and regular for players to "expand" their "core" products. If you can imagine how FLGSs (Brick & Mortar Stores) dislike the CCG/TCG Booster "business" model and how it can be challenging to sell upwards of 50% (and even 60%) of a case before seeing any profit – Well this is even WORST if you think of "Fixed" Boosters. Why?

Because generally speaking if a case come with 36 boosters, that means you need 18+ sales of those "Fixed" Booster before that case gets sold. But remember it's "FIXED" content. No more thrill of chasing a rare or mythic card... So while random Boosters still serve a purpose by VARYING the cards a player gets, fixed Boosters do nothing of the sort. It's the SAME for each booster and what it leads to is this: you'll REQUIRE over 18+ PLAYERS before you see profit on that case.

Now in the random Booster "business" model, the opposite is TRUE: one player may buy MORE packs hoping to get better rare cards. So while 18+ is HIGH, it's probably the sweet spot and maybe you might only require 5 or 6 players to buy the entire case (36 boosters).

This is the 2nd reason why I firmly state that the "LCG" business model is truly "broken"... Stores hate "random" Boosters and will never sell "fixed" boosters because the demands from players are way too high!

Jay103
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Does a dealer need to buy a

Does a dealer need to buy a large case of a lcg expansion? Or small numbers like a board game?

questccg
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Depends on the Publisher

Jay103 wrote:
Does a dealer need to buy a large case of a lcg expansion? Or small numbers like a board game?

There are no "guidelines" but Magic has worked on the successful case size of 36 "random" Booster packs per case. Generally speaking a store needs to sell upwards of 18+ boosters (50%) and sometimes higher (60+%) to make any profit.

If you are using a "Booster" format, I can't imagine sizes LESS than what is normal for "boosters" in general.

Now what I have seen is Publishers SELLING "expansions" in a MINI BOX. This seems to be a variation on the standard "expansion". So while LCG promote new content in a BIG BOX, some Publishers have designed smaller boxes with their "expandable" content. Yes it takes less shelf space and most of the time you can market it NEXT to the original game. Sometimes making 2x the sale if someone purchases the original game and the mini expansion.

So there is some attempt to entice consumers to buy more than just the "core" product. But it's not a requirement of the LCG format.

Jay103
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In my "I'm probably not

In my "I'm probably not actually going to make a game with this many cards" musings, I came up with the idea of selling pre-made decks, that could also choose to mix-and-match into your own deck.

A KS would probably sell a pack of 6 such decks, and then an expansion could be a single deck or a pair, or a deck that wasn't a prefab playable deck but fleshed out a new mechanic.

Don't think that falls into any of the above categories, but so be it :)

larienna
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Quote:Designing a GOOD game

Quote:
Designing a GOOD game is the priority. And I've gotten that opinion from other designers too... You want to have a GOOD "core" something solid and capable of having a few different play-styles or combinatorics that allow different people to play using different strategies.

That is a quote that I want to point out and that might be a bit off topic. In all those years, It seems that all your game projects and ideas lean towards a form of CCG/TCG/LCG. Or something designed to be expanded.

Now the problem is that those games are one of the most complex games to design, due to their unlimited space growth. And I think you are constantly shooting your self in the foot by thinking about expandability while trying to design a game.

My suggestion is that if you want to make a good solid game, you have to move away from the expandable game. Just make a good game and forget about expansions. Focus only on game design, and if your game is so popular that people demand more, then now either make expansion, or a second game with a similar or different theme and a few mechanic twist. ( Ex: A civ game on earth, or a "civ" game in space)

But try to make a self contained closed blanced game. It will be much more solid than an open game and will be much easier to design.

polyobsessive
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What larienna said

larienna wrote:
That is a quote that I want to point out and that might be a bit off topic. In all those years, It seems that all your game projects and ideas lean towards a form of CCG/TCG/LCG. Or something designed to be expanded.

Now the problem is that those games are one of the most complex games to design, due to their unlimited space growth. And I think you are constantly shooting your self in the foot by thinking about expandability while trying to design a game.

My suggestion is that if you want to make a good solid game, you have to move away from the expandable game. Just make a good game and forget about expansions. Focus only on game design, and if your game is so popular that people demand more, then now either make expansion, or a second game with a similar or different theme and a few mechanic twist. ( Ex: A civ game on earth, or a "civ" game in space)

But try to make a self contained closed blanced game. It will be much more solid than an open game and will be much easier to design.

^ +++ This. ^

questccg
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I want the game to be EPIC!

larienna wrote:
...But try to make a self contained closed balanced game. It will be much more solid than an open game and will be much easier to design.

Designing OPEN games is the reason for the XTG3 philosophy. It offers a three tier program to help promote "Expandable" games in stores. We will of course be soon talking about "TradeWorlds" being in stores around the globe and that means that the XTG3 pilot project will be a success for the "label".

With that I may add, I'm not afraid to design open games and "TradeWorlds" has a slew of expansions already. We've even bundled some of those expansions as part of a Greater "Core" namely the "Roles Compendium", a couple of Scenarios and an AI Deck to play solitary.

From that experience and working with the XTG3 Label, I am aware of what is needed for "expandable" games or games that have been designed with the concept of "expandability" in mind. It's not because I made a Great game that I designed an expansion, no... the game was designed to allow expansions to be derived according to the level of the license.

Same with "Quest Adventure Cards(tm) – 2nd Edition"... I want the game to be sufficiently EPIC... And while I am designing it, I am thinking about play-styles, alternative ways to play and which cards you may use. This to me is normal because this product will be the SECOND XTG3 product out there in the market.

So naturally I am "thinking" about expandability and furthermore how to compartmentalize the game such that there are different facets to the game. It's part of the challenge (in my book). I don't want to design just games. I want to design games that can GROW.

But I understand what you feel. Planning for expandability means that it will be easier when the time comes to create expansions. Look at "TradeWorlds" we are already at FOUR (4) Expansions. Each different and varying the game's style making the original game NEW and fresh with interesting mechanics and new ways of playing the game.

Since Quest AC – 1st Edition was too simple (didn't have enough design experience), I hope that I can rectify this with the 2nd Edition. We shall see where the road leads me. Right now, it's still a matter of working out more cards/card-types. But I feel the game is very innovative and fresh in terms of design.

Cheers!

questccg
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Just a small remark...

Already I am creating "links" or play-styles with the "Nobles".

Example #1: Using the Merchant to Stockpile & Trade.

This is definitely one approach you can use to produce resources and send them to other locations/cities. Once there you can use them to produce Guards at that other location (according to build rules at that location/city).

Example #2: Using the King to Convert & Garrison.

Another approach is to produce valuable resources and convert to produce Guards at one location and then use the Garrison ability to transfer them to nearby locations/cities.

And plus you can use "combos" of multiple "Nobles" to set-up even more effective of an engine to produce and manage resources...

Already there are parallels in how you build and use your engine.

So this is just a sneak-peek at how the engine will allow for various play-styles and combinations working together in tandem.

larienna
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I don't want to be

I don't want to be pessimistic, but I think you plan too large. You sound like you want to make a triple A video game while not having made even an app yet. Or like if you are working for a big company announcing a new series of games, while not having a single game in your catalog. You seem more interested about managing releases and products than designing games.

I strongly reiterate the idea of designing a single self contained game. At least to see the whole process from head to tail. Don't tell me you don't have any non-expandable game ideas. Most game designers always have a few dozen ideas on the back of their mind. Dress up a list of ideas and select one game to finish. I strongly suggest going 4S: simple, small, short, Social, as it will allow you publishing the game faster.

Another thing, Players are less likely to buy expandable products from an unknown company. It's a bit like open source software, if there is not an healthy community behind to maintain the software, it's not recommended to use such software in enterprise. So In order to sell expandable games, you need to already be trusted and that means having already released so far many good and solid games people like.

Take a look at the history of fantasy flight, they did not start doing business, by making a huge line of product, they started with 1 game: Twilight Imperium. It worked and they gained funding to do other games. Eventually, they designed campaign setting containing multiple games ( Runebound, Android, etc ). And now today, they are planning large series of games. So in the end, it took around 20 years to be able to reach that state of reputation.

You are trying to achieve that level of success immediately. You have to be realistic. I also have great dreams of designing many cool games with various campaign settings like FFG are doing it (it will not happen). But I understand that if I want to build a cathedral, I'll have to build it stone by stone. So have to set myself realistic milestone and move from stone to stone. If I ever reach the end of the track, fine for me, else well I hope the voyage would have been fun.

Good luck in what ever path you chose to follow.

questccg
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Just trying to innovate

larienna wrote:
...Don't tell me you don't have any non-expandable game ideas. Most game designers always have a few dozen ideas on the back of their mind. Dress up a list of ideas and select one game to finish.

I work based on inspiration and what yields better results. Sure I have other ideas – But they all have their own flaws. I choose where I want to invest my time in thought based on mechanics that seem to "flow". And thanks to another designer, "Quest Adventure Cards(tm) – 2nd Edition" is blessed with some innovating ideas.

If my other ideas were sufficiently developed and met my own personal requirements for being FUN and interesting to play, I would spend more time on those. But the fact of the matter most of my uncompleted designs have "issues" with them. Sure some of them have "innovative" aspects but ... nothing comes together more firmly that my current "burst" of ideas around Quest AC v2.

I'd rather design NO GAME than finish crappy games. Or wait for more inspirations in one of my other designs given new mechanics or interesting combinations of them.

As far as being published, I do have a game which made $42.5k on a KS. We're in the process of finishing the Final Prototype before going to manufacturing. What people (think gamers) feel about the game is well yet unknown. Personally I have been told that "TradeWorlds" is better than "Star Realms"... If this is true, I don't know yet, we'll see what people think once they start to play the game.

With regards to expansions, we made two (2) expansions for the game and MOST people backed the version with the expansions. One is now bundled with the "core" product, the other will be available separately (or to KS backers).

My publisher doesn't doubt that the "TradeWorlds" Brand will continue to grow. At the moment, we'll have to see how all that translates. And the litmus test is the ratings we get once people have played the game. Do they like it? Are they enjoying all the extra content?? Will they be interested in seeing more??? All that is still in the air. Because it takes time for things to happen.

larienna wrote:
Good luck in what ever path you chose to follow.

Thanks @Eric, I respect your opinion greatly. But I just don't want to design for the fun of designing. I want to design "memorable" games. And sometimes what that means is sculpting a model and seeing "is this FUN and innovative"?

I am no Jamey Stegmaeir ... But I do strive for original ideas. Jamey has pumped out like 5 games in 5 years. I've maybe done only 1 in that same time frame. And I've worked on about a dozen or so designs – all in some state of completion but still not 100% completed.

But I've gotten a good "vibe" from the current "Quest AC v2" mechanics. I would state that I am probably at only 25% of the design... Still lots to flesh out and highly depending on the pieces to "fit together".

I too am no FFG or WotC. But that doesn't mean that I can't strive for creative and innovative game designs. There was ONE (1) Donald X. Vaccarino and the beginning of the Deck-Building genre. "TradeWorlds" is very different from Dominion, but never-the-less is "innovative" in design and play.

I'm just trying to deliver the SAME quality for "Quest AC v2". I'll post some more on the Quest Blog... Giving some more thoughts about the game and where it is today.

Cheers!

Super-Tooned
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Yes

questccg wrote:
With that I may add, I'm not afraid to design open games

Yes, but you are afraid to have people disagree with you.

-Super

Stormyknight1976
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@Kris

Just to let you know that I do stand on what I believe in.

Also, please stop putting other game companies down for their work.
You do this constantly. That’s very rude. We are a gaming community to encourage and uplift creativity. There are many companies out in the world way before you and I were ever born and you hack these companies down saying their understanding of building or creating or designing is nothing and you are better than they are?

We as a community are trying to understand where your coming from and the last 25+ posters have shared their valued points on the very broken of a LCG format and you go off track by talking about your game in the last few posts?

Please explain why you think that FLGS don’t like fixed boosters and why they have to get more customers to buy the expansion boxes and worry about the LCG core boxes or booster boxes?

Please explain why you think a customer only looks at a LCG game and think it’s broken and or won’t buy the game because the customer only wants 5 cards out of the box to play? Who thinks this way? I don’t. An LCG is an option to buy all of the cards of the game and not have to run and gun for a rarity of a card. Most people don’t have the luxury to just look for the rarity etc of cards. Most LCG core box games don’t cost $45.

Let’s talk about LCG formats for a moment.

It’s not that difficult to create a LCG format. You just have to figure out a way. I have done it. Been working on my Dymino Monsters game v2.0 since 2004. V1.0 was in 1999-2000.

The information is all there in the forums. If my game sells, it sales. If not, I am and will still be pleased. Because I knew I can accomplish that large of a game design. That game and the rest of my 27 other games to. Never published. I create or design games to have fun and to tell stories. I know I won’t get rich off my games and that is also fine by me.

LCG is not broken. Nor just an acronym to sell Boosters. You find them broken for what ever reason and that is okay.

Creator of Dymino Monsters: Novel Deck Construction Card Game
Jesse F.
Stormyknight1976

Super-Tooned
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Stormyknight1976 wrote:Just

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
Just to let you know that I do stand on what I believe in.

Also, please stop putting other game companies down for their work.
You do this constantly. That’s very rude. We are a gaming community to encourage and uplift creativity. There are many companies out in the world way before you and I were ever born and you hack these companies down saying their understanding of building or creating or designing is nothing and you are better than they are?

We as a community are trying to understand where your coming from and the last 25+ posters have shared their valued points on the very broken of a LCG format and you go off track by talking about your game in the last few posts?

Please explain why you think that FLGS don’t like fixed boosters and why they have to get more customers to buy the expansion boxes and worry about the LCG core boxes or booster boxes?

Please explain why you think a customer only looks at a LCG game and think it’s broken and or won’t buy the game because the customer only wants 5 cards out of the box to play? Who thinks this way? I don’t. An LCG is an option to buy all of the cards of the game and not have to run and gun for a rarity of a card. Most people don’t have the luxury to just look for the rarity etc of cards. Most LCG core box games don’t cost $45.

Let’s talk about LCG formats for a moment.

It’s not that difficult to create a LCG format. You just have to figure out a way. I have done it. Been working on my Dymino Monsters game v2.0 since 2004. V1.0 was in 1999-2000.

The information is all there in the forums. If my game sells, it sales. If not, I am and will still be pleased. Because I knew I can accomplish that large of a game design. That game and the rest of my 27 other games to. Never published. I create or design games to have fun and to tell stories. I know I won’t get rich off my games and that is also fine by me.

LCG is not broken. Nor just an acronym to sell Boosters. You find them broken for what ever reason and that is okay.

Creator of Dymino Monsters: Novel Deck Construction Card Game
Jesse F.
Stormyknight1976

+500 XP

Super-Tooned
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Stormyknight1976 wrote:Just

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
Just to let you know that I do stand on what I believe in.

Also, please stop putting other game companies down for their work.
You do this constantly. That’s very rude. We are a gaming community to encourage and uplift creativity. There are many companies out in the world way before you and I were ever born and you hack these companies down saying their understanding of building or creating or designing is nothing and you are better than they are?

We as a community are trying to understand where your coming from and the last 25+ posters have shared their valued points on the very broken of a LCG format and you go off track by talking about your game in the last few posts?

Please explain why you think that FLGS don’t like fixed boosters and why they have to get more customers to buy the expansion boxes and worry about the LCG core boxes or booster boxes?

Please explain why you think a customer only looks at a LCG game and think it’s broken and or won’t buy the game because the customer only wants 5 cards out of the box to play? Who thinks this way? I don’t. An LCG is an option to buy all of the cards of the game and not have to run and gun for a rarity of a card. Most people don’t have the luxury to just look for the rarity etc of cards. Most LCG core box games don’t cost $45.

Let’s talk about LCG formats for a moment.

It’s not that difficult to create a LCG format. You just have to figure out a way. I have done it. Been working on my Dymino Monsters game v2.0 since 2004. V1.0 was in 1999-2000.

The information is all there in the forums. If my game sells, it sales. If not, I am and will still be pleased. Because I knew I can accomplish that large of a game design. That game and the rest of my 27 other games to. Never published. I create or design games to have fun and to tell stories. I know I won’t get rich off my games and that is also fine by me.

LCG is not broken. Nor just an acronym to sell Boosters. You find them broken for what ever reason and that is okay.

Creator of Dymino Monsters: Novel Deck Construction Card Game
Jesse F.
Stormyknight1976

+500 XP

Super-Tooned
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Stormyknight1976 wrote:Just

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
Just to let you know that I do stand on what I believe in.

Also, please stop putting other game companies down for their work.
You do this constantly. That’s very rude. We are a gaming community to encourage and uplift creativity. There are many companies out in the world way before you and I were ever born and you hack these companies down saying their understanding of building or creating or designing is nothing and you are better than they are?

We as a community are trying to understand where your coming from and the last 25+ posters have shared their valued points on the very broken of a LCG format and you go off track by talking about your game in the last few posts?

Please explain why you think that FLGS don’t like fixed boosters and why they have to get more customers to buy the expansion boxes and worry about the LCG core boxes or booster boxes?

Please explain why you think a customer only looks at a LCG game and think it’s broken and or won’t buy the game because the customer only wants 5 cards out of the box to play? Who thinks this way? I don’t. An LCG is an option to buy all of the cards of the game and not have to run and gun for a rarity of a card. Most people don’t have the luxury to just look for the rarity etc of cards. Most LCG core box games don’t cost $45.

Let’s talk about LCG formats for a moment.

It’s not that difficult to create a LCG format. You just have to figure out a way. I have done it. Been working on my Dymino Monsters game v2.0 since 2004. V1.0 was in 1999-2000.

The information is all there in the forums. If my game sells, it sales. If not, I am and will still be pleased. Because I knew I can accomplish that large of a game design. That game and the rest of my 27 other games to. Never published. I create or design games to have fun and to tell stories. I know I won’t get rich off my games and that is also fine by me.

LCG is not broken. Nor just an acronym to sell Boosters. You find them broken for what ever reason and that is okay.

Creator of Dymino Monsters: Novel Deck Construction Card Game
Jesse F.
Stormyknight1976

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questccg
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@Jesse

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
...Please explain why you think that FLGS don’t like fixed boosters and why they have to get more customers to buy the expansion boxes and worry about the LCG core boxes or booster boxes?...

I've explained it several times in this thread with various different approaches!

I've talk to a couple FLGS store owners in the past who HATE the "Booster" business model. As I said their beef is that you must sell upwards of 60% of a case before making a profit. Now IF the case was full of FIXED boosters, which they will still hate, but now they need to sell to 18+ different customers, because each customer is going to BUY only ONE (1) Fixed booster (Do we agree???) that means that for the case to sell they will need 18+ individual and unique customers to sell. There is no FLGS that will be happy with ONE (1) per player. In the Random Booster scenario a player may buy like 4+ booster packs, do you now get the picture that buying only ONE (1) booster pack PER PLAYER is an even BIGGER, more difficult deterrent that no FLGS owner will agree to???

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
Please explain why you think a customer only looks at a LCG game and think it’s broken and or won’t buy the game because the customer only wants 5 cards out of the box to play? Who thinks this way? I don’t.

Gamers that want certain cards to be able to play with. We are talking about "Deck Construction". And depending on the gamer, he/she might only want to add a limited set of cards from a "larger"-type of expansion to a game. Especially if the goal is to allow "Deck Construction".

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
An LCG is an option to buy all of the cards of the game and not have to run and gun for a rarity of a card. Most people don’t have the luxury to just look for the rarity etc of cards. Most LCG core box games don’t cost $45.

Netrunner revised "core" costs $59.99 USD + Shipping on Amazon[dot]com...

It's not collectability than concerns me. It's "Deck Construction". If you want to collect ALL the cards that's one reason to go with the LCG model, since you don't need to chase cards and hope to get the right one, etc.

But if for offline "Deck Construction" purposes you already have a custom Deck – And you only want like 5 cards out of 156 cards ("Reign and Reverie" is a 156 card-expansion). Or say maybe 20 cards... You need to spend $29.99 USD + Shipping.

Those are CONCRETE FACTS not some BS... And yes there are less expensive expansions under $15.00 USD which have 60 cards, three (3) copies of each card (so 20 unique cards).

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
Let’s talk about LCG formats for a moment.

I've explained what the LCG format stands for.

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
LCG is not broken. Nor just an acronym to sell Boosters. You find them broken for what ever reason and that is okay.

You have the right to your opinion, you wanted answers, I have given them to you. I'm going to go down to the FLGS in my area and check-out what he has for FFG Netrunner. But I'm pretty certain, that I have NOT seen those mini-expansions (under $15 USD) on their shelves... I think I would have remembered such a detail... But I'm going to have a second look. Just to be certain that the store is NOT carrying any of those "expansions".

IF I see those expansions IN STORES (not online), well then I'll have the surprise of my life. Because I honestly believe, from what storeowners are saying... They won't carry that product on their shelves...

BIG Note: If you WANT to collect 20 cards, you will need to buy 60 of them. Even if you don't want the OTHER cards (or need them) because your interest in "Collectability" ... do you see THAT problem now?

questccg
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And the reason I started this thread was...

Not to bitch about FFG "LCG" format. But to TRY to make everyone AWARE that the LCG format is NOT the format for any of your games. Don't give the advice "Do an LCG not a CCG/TCG"... It's wrong.

The best advice you can give is to PLAN your game so that it can SUPPORT "Expansions" if you want the "core" game to GROW. It's as simple as that.

That's I'll that I'm trying to EXPLAIN in this thread.

"Don't do an LCG either... it has it's own flaws." Design a game that allows you to add expansions and sell the expansions along with your "core" game.

This will make Game Designers happy, storeowners will carry the game + expansions and nobody is going to tell you some "acronym" is trademarked and cannot be used (even if it is not what it is supposed to be cracked up to be...)

Cheers!

Jay103
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I’m wondering if most people

I’m wondering if most people know ahead of time that there are 5 cards out of the 150 that they want, and exactly what they are. Or do they need to buy the big pack just to learn that..?

Super-Tooned
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...

Heh

questccg
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I don't think so...

Jay103 wrote:
I’m wondering if most people know ahead of time that there are 5 cards out of the 150 that they want, and exactly what they are. Or do they need to buy the big pack just to learn that...?

I really didn't want to get DEEP into the actual meaning of the "LCG" format... But FFG (Fantasy Flight Games) releases a LOT of mini-expansions which are 60 cards with triples of each card (so 20 unique cards). This is geared for players that want to refine their Decks (think Deck Construction). But you are getting all of those cards in a FIXED package.

The idea is that FFG wants to promote "Tournament-style" game play. Or what FFG calls "Organized Play". From casual leagues to hard-core premiere level tournaments... To be real honest with you, at $15 USD for 20 cards (because there are triples of each card), you're going to have to figure out what you want to buy and not collect. That's about 3x the price of a Random Booster.

And they make these mini-expansions to promote tournament play and Deck Construction. Because everyone knows if you ONLY have one (1) of a card in a 60 Card Deck ... your odds are 1:60. Three, 1:20. Much better odds of using those cards for your deck.

This puts at odds PLAYING and COLLECTING. It's still less expensive for a collector but you are getting way more cards (triples). For playing the game it is great because with triples, you improve the odds of actually adding and getting a card during a match.

So you see even FFG has to walk a tight line. They need to balance between what is required for collectability and what is needed for playability. This format (LCG) is interesting if you want to focus on designing "tournaments" around a Card Game. But for the most part, it's a beast of its own and is something specific to FFG...

Update: In a way the "LCG" format is something more "ambitious". Most of us don't have the finances to create a game designed for "tournament" play. Some of us may have ideas about how that could be done... But I doubt most of us financially could even break into such a mold. So in a way, that format is to be "applauded" because it encourages league play and promotes regular gaming.

Most people who design a game don't think about "How many times their game is going to get played." They just want to make a fun and entertaining game... FFG goal with "LCG" is to promote a sustainable community of gamers and they have the finances to do this.

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