Skip to Content
 

Help! Simple Dice Allocation Combat

14 replies [Last post]
Westmaas
Westmaas's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/08/2014

Hi everyone! I'm working on a game and am stuck with the combat element of it. The game is a 2 player head to head dungeon crawl, players take turns moving around their opponents dungeon maze, and running into objects like traps, treasures, and monsters. Currently there is an 'Energy' currency at play, so with each step you expend 1 Energy (2 if you decide to 'search' for items), and you have 5-7 energy each turn, at which point your turn ends. The first player to achieve the win condition (find X amount of treasure chests) and reach the exit wins. Pretty standard fare, I haven't gone into all the details which make the exploration unique.

When a player runs into an enemy, combat immediately starts. I'd like it to be pretty quick (thinking around 1 minute), but the most important thing is that there are is a meaningful choice/decision to be made when fighting. I really like the idea of dice allocation to resolve the encounter, but can't quite come up with something solid and so am looking for help/suggestions/ideas.

I'm playing around with the Hero character having 3 attributes - SKill (blue), Intellect (yellow), and Valor (red). Each value could be how many dice you have available to you in that attribute, so a 3 in Skill would grant you 3 Blue Dice etc. Currently working with using D6's but open to whatever. I also can see the Hero character having Abilities, whether in card form or hardcoded onto the character board. These could also have spaces for allocating dice in order to trigger. I imagine a sample Goblin monster would require say a 4+ in a Blue dice, and maybe a 2 in a Yellow Dice to defeat it (not sure about combat 'rounds' but I'm open to the idea, though there are no HP yet for the characters - but Valor could work as health). I got to the point where you would then decide which dice to roll (up to a maximum of 4) and then roll them - so in this example, I might choose 2 Blue dice and 2 Yellow Dice (providing my attributes are this high). I then assign the Dice that I can to the monster, but I also have the option to assign these dice to my Abilities, which may let me manipulate the dice in further ways to get the desired results... So I roll a 2 and 3 in the blue dice, which doesn't meet the 4+ requirement of the monster - but one of my abilities allows me to place any EVEN numbered Blue die on it to trigger, so I place the 2 there. That ability then allows me to 'flip' one dice to it's other side... so I flip the 3 Blue dice to it's other side, which is a 4, so I can now fulfill the Goblin slot of a 4+ blue dice.

I dunno... I'm not sure if there's enough decision making, and would this allow for enough variance between monsters and character Abilities? I like the idea of dice allocation, game systems like Roll Player, Diceborn Heroes, Intrepid etc. are all super cool and I'd love to boil it down to something simple for combat encounters.

Also a sidenote, when you lose in Combat, whether a 'round' or the whole thing, either your turn can end or the monster saps a certain amount of Energy from you. If you are out of energy, your turn ends, and if you still have some to use, you could perhaps be forced to replay the encounter, but with... less attribute points to spend on dice? And maybe that gets replenished each round. Also not sure how to cycle Ability cards/usage in and out... gah. Any help would be great.

Thanks!

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Hero + Equipment???

I don't know if you will like this IDEA ... But I would make a few changes to give another approach:

1. Might

2. Fortune

3. Diplomacy

A Hero has "3" ways to WIN a Battle: Might, Fortune, Diplomacy.

Might requires a skill check, like 3D6s > 10. For each incorrect roll, the player takes "X" Damage (where "X" is determined by the damage dealt by the monster). An item like a "Magic Sword" gives +3 Might... Helps you out.

Fortune requires another skill check, like roll 2D6s > 5 is the amount of Gold you pay to resolve the battle. If you fail this check, you take "X" Damage and you must now rely of Might to win the Battle. A "Golden Pendant" gives you +2 Fortune which means when you roll, you get a "+2". COSTLY but HELPFUL! Haha.

And lastly Diplomacy... I'm not sure TBH. Instead of LUCK (die rolling), it would need to be something else. Again it could be an "option" much like "Fortune" which allows you to BRIBE the opponent and the monster can be insulted with too low of a payment (as explained above) and force a battle.

Note that this system is very simple. The battles are QUICK and the amount of damage is relatively LOW. Again these a "working" ideas... Not complete... Just some kind of variation. ATM I really don't know HOW to handle "diplomacy" but it DOES seem like an "ALTERNATE" way of RESOLVING battles.

Let me know what you think!

Sincerely.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Ok ... So I may have an concept for "Diplomacy"

Roll "X"D6s (White) plus "1"D6 (Black)... Diplomacy WORKS if NO "White Die" has the same value as the "Black Die"!

And "Fortune" could be modified to use a "Black Die" too: 2D6s > 5. Plus +1D6 (Black) and is the amount of GOLD "Paid" to resolve the Battle.

And "Might" could also be modified with a "Black Die": 3D6s > 1D6 (Black) + 5.

Could be COOL and easy to implement.

Let me know what you think!

The idea behind the "Diplomacy" is that all VOICES are united. When there is someone who is not in agreement (eg. the "Black" Die) that results in a failure to diplomatic discussions!

Westmaas
Westmaas's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/08/2014
Very neat concept for sure! I

Very neat concept for sure! I really like the Diplomacy aspect of not having any of the values match. The enemies in the game are mainly non-humanoid however and I'm not sure the theming of being diplomatic with them or bribing them with gold will work necessarily (maybe the bribing?) but perhaps I could change the terms to be something more fitting. The main takeaway is that it's a good idea to give the Hero different avenues of success - do they choose to defeat the encounter via Might, or Fortune, or Diplomacy etc! That's a nice choice that perhaps I can implement. I wonder if something like Brawn, Guile, Spirit could work... perhaps to simulate overcoming with sheer combat prowess/or using your wits in a crafty way/or by resiliency.

Westmaas
Westmaas's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/08/2014
When you mention the skill

When you mention the skill check, for example Might = 3D6 > 10, you mention for each 'incorrect roll' the monster would deal damage back. Just trying to clarify - in that skill check, are you adding the values of the 3D6 and seeing if it's greater than 10? And if so, what would constitute an incorrect roll - if the 3 dice don't equal or surpass 10? Just confused because at first I thought you meant for EACH DICE that doesn't succeed, the monster hits back.. but that wouldn't make sense on second thought.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Exactly...!

I like your version too, it's better: Brawn, Guile and Spirit! Man you're good too! Hehehe. I can tell you were made for Designing Games... That all makes 100% sense to me... Then the method of choosing is left to how you approach each monster and the result of your rolls.

I definitely am for: Brawn, Guile and Spirit!

That makes for some very good decision making in the game... Regards!


No what I meant is you roll 3D6s and you need to get GREATER than a Value. So 3D6 > 10... or 3D6 > 6 + Black Die roll (for the enemy). If you FAIL that "skill check", your monster deals "X" Damage... And then you ROLL again all 3D6s.

The number of dice and the resulting score can all be affected by Hero Stats, Monster Stats, and Equipment (or items).

So you only need to worry about one "Damage" Stat from the Monster. Each failure deals "X" Damage.

Something like that...

Drion22
Drion22's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/20/2019
Hey! That's a pretty cool

Hey! That's a pretty cool game concept. For dice allocation, the easiest decision-making solution is usually just yahtzee (you can reroll any number of dice up to 2 times), but that only works if there's a reason to keep certain die results, like one might give bonus energy/gold/health if you keep it or you can reroll it for an actual Might value to defeat the goblin, or some die result might be worth a lot (like a double strike) but only if you have two dice showing that result. To add more decisionmaking, you can try adding multiple rows of health that need to be defeated across multiple combats, and the heroes could decide if they want to chance the tougher row now, or finish the easier ones, and try the other next combat with this monster. I feel like the game X-men mutant genesis has some mechanics you might like, including several dice manipulation ability ideas on different characters and 3 different dice, that have the same icons, but different distributions of them, because some enemies might require more damage allocated, while others might take more speed or smarts, which different dice have more faces of. If you want it to be a single dice check, that could be pretty volatile, especially in a pvp game, but you could try a gambling mechanic where you could pay some amount of energy upfront to gain that much of a bonus to your next roll.
If you don't mind different die sizes, James Ernest's button men game has a cool die combat mechanic you could steal, where smaller dice are speed and bigger are strength, each enemy could have a certain number and size of dice that gets rolled start of combat and you need to take out all of their dice one by one, using either a:
1) Power attack, where you use one of your dice that shows a bigger number than an enemy die to defeat that die
2) Skill attack, you defeat an opponents die, if any number of your dice add up exactly to the value of that die
Then you reroll all of your dice used in the attack, maybe lose your lowest value dice each turn to add tension, it's a pvp system at its core so pve will take testing.
For multiple approaches, like Valor/Diplomacy or sneaking around the enemy, you could make it more interesting by only giving loot for a monster if they were defeated, but make sneaking around/diplomacy easier.
Cheers!

Westmaas
Westmaas's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/08/2014
That's great! Yeah that's

That's great! Yeah that's definitely something I can work with. In regards to the original idea though, is there a concept like this that could work with dice-allocation? Something about that method really seems like it could fit this game and perhaps be less 'mathy' or do away with endless modifiers. I like the idea of rolling a set of 5 dice (or more/less) and then making the tough decision of where to place them to achieve the required result... just not sure how to implement it in combat form...

Drion22
Drion22's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/20/2019
Well, the things you have to

Well, the things you have to avoid with dice are whiffs (not making any progress with a roll), so that's why I recommended having multiple health rows so the player could always go for completing at least something. Maybe you could make it that only some of the rows are needed to defeat a baddie, like for a goblin you can either do two combat-heavy health row allocations or one combat and one dexterity heavy one

Drion22
Drion22's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/20/2019
If you like the system, just

If you like the system, just try taking the system for elder sign or x-men mutant genesis wholesale then see what needs tweaking and cutting

Westmaas
Westmaas's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/08/2014
Drion22 wrote:Hey! That's a

Drion22 wrote:
Hey! That's a pretty cool game concept. For dice allocation, the easiest decision-making solution is usually just yahtzee (you can reroll any number of dice up to 2 times), but that only works if there's a reason to keep certain die results, like one might give bonus energy/gold/health if you keep it or you can reroll it for an actual Might value to defeat the goblin, or some die result might be worth a lot (like a double strike) but only if you have two dice showing that result. To add more decisionmaking, you can try adding multiple rows of health that need to be defeated across multiple combats, and the heroes could decide if they want to chance the tougher row now, or finish the easier ones, and try the other next combat with this monster. I feel like the game X-men mutant genesis has some mechanics you might like, including several dice manipulation ability ideas on different characters and 3 different dice, that have the same icons, but different distributions of them, because some enemies might require more damage allocated, while others might take more speed or smarts, which different dice have more faces of. If you want it to be a single dice check, that could be pretty volatile, especially in a pvp game, but you could try a gambling mechanic where you could pay some amount of energy upfront to gain that much of a bonus to your next roll.
If you don't mind different die sizes, James Ernest's button men game has a cool die combat mechanic you could steal, where smaller dice are speed and bigger are strength, each enemy could have a certain number and size of dice that gets rolled start of combat and you need to take out all of their dice one by one, using either a:
1) Power attack, where you use one of your dice that shows a bigger number than an enemy die to defeat that die
2) Skill attack, you defeat an opponents die, if any number of your dice add up exactly to the value of that die
Then you reroll all of your dice used in the attack, maybe lose your lowest value dice each turn to add tension, it's a pvp system at its core so pve will take testing.
For multiple approaches, like Valor/Diplomacy or sneaking around the enemy, you could make it more interesting by only giving loot for a monster if they were defeated, but make sneaking around/diplomacy easier.
Cheers!

Wow awesome, so many good ideas to pull from this post. I'm gonna check up Mutant Genesis and see if anything from that game sparks some ideas - also Button Men, as what you described there sounds interesting as well. I like the different attacks (power, skill) and I really think incorporating which avenue you'd like to defeat an enemy works well for brain burning choices. Thank you for this detailed post!

Westmaas
Westmaas's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/08/2014
Drion22 wrote:Well, the

Drion22 wrote:
Well, the things you have to avoid with dice are whiffs (not making any progress with a roll), so that's why I recommended having multiple health rows so the player could always go for completing at least something. Maybe you could make it that only some of the rows are needed to defeat a baddie, like for a goblin you can either do two combat-heavy health row allocations or one combat and one dexterity heavy one

Yeah absolutely! I just wanted to clarify that the post I made before this was in response to QuestCCG, I think we posted at the same time so it appeared after yours - I'm just reading your posts now and everything you mentioned made sense. I also dislike not making any progress, so it's a good idea to have multiple rows of attack so at least the player can chip away at something.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Well ... Just remember one of your dilemma was...

Not having enough choices... Or feeling like the combat was too ONE Level. The way of Yahtzee is not necessarily bad, you could maybe blend the two, no? Like have different PATTERNS to conquer the opponent, KEEP the "Black" die and introduce variations giving that "Die" some control.

So while you have to ROLL a PAIR, the "Black" die is the exception. So the roll would be something like: "Roll a PAIR with a value other than the Black die."

Or roll some "SEQUENCE" like "1, 2, 3" with 3 dice and use the "Black" die as a Wildcard (if it is a 1, 2 or 3 ... you only need to roll the other 2 values given 3 dice.

Anyhow I know you're a good designer. And you'll understand what I mean. I just felt like the "Brawn, Guile and Spirit" added to the decision making process and made it a lot more multi-dimensional in terms of choices.

Cheers!

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
I also had something else... Which you can "borrow"...

In my Girls Gymnastic Game (which is currently on the bench...) the idea was to draw cards and perform the required "manoeuvre". But instead of ONLY D6s, each apparatus has it's very OWN "Polyhedral" die in the mix.

Like for example: 1, "2", 3, 5

Then you would get 3D6s and 1D4. Instead of "Damage" the score would decrease each additional roll required to complete the manoeuvre. Obviously the "Poly" dice adds a bit of additional "complexity".

And the idea was to include "Standard" Polyhedral Dice to the mix to make a manoeuvre more difficult to accomplish.

In your case, you can LOCK-IN your matching dice and after each ROLL you get "Damaged" by the Monster. So if you don't get it in one roll... You lose "X" Damage and you lock-in the dice matching and re-roll the remainder.

Another variation instead of a "static" "X" Damage, it could be "X" + the amount of dice you need to re-roll. And the Poly dice could be +6 Damage.

So it would look like:

Roll #1: 1, "3", 3, 3. 1 & 3 Match. "3" and 3 do not. Damage = "X" + 6 + 1.
Roll #2: "2", 4. "2" Matches. 4 does not. Damage = "X" + 1.
Roll #3: 3. Damage = "X" + 1.
Roll #4: 5. 5 Matches, the Monster is defeated in 4 Rounds.

"X" for a weak Monster could be 1 or 2, 3 or 4 for a medium Monster and 5 or 6 for a Tough Monster.

You could have ITEMS like this:

Magical Potion: Use to substitute any one missing die roll value.
Healing Potion: Recover 10 HP.

or Permanents like:

Sacred Pendant: Acts as the value "5" and can substitute ANY roll.
Enchanted Staff: Acts as the value "1" ...

Things like that. This might be more in-line with your earlier concept. IDK.

You're the designer... Let me know if this is more in-line with what you had as an initial idea.

Cheers @Christopher.

Note #1: Another VARIATION is IF you roll a "matching" die (1 or more) then there is no damage that Round. So if I review my example:

Roll #1: 1, "3", 3, 3. 1 & 3 Match. "3" and 3 do not. 0 Damage.
Roll #2: "2", 4. "2" Matches. 4 does not. 0 Damage.
Roll #3: 3. Damage = "X" + 1.
Roll #4: 5. 5 Matches, the Monster is defeated in 4 Rounds.

So only one (1) Round where there is Damage... Another Flavor!

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Threshold

Well, curious what this leads too.

But just keep in mind that. If you use any threshold on d6.
The need for rolling a 6 is twice as hard as needing to roll a 5+.

With more than 1 die, this becomes more complicated.
And while a die could be changed by decision making, is it really a decision?

If you have decided on a system. You could map out and see how storng a requirement might be.

On a side note, perhaps if the player needs to spend some sort of resource in order to change a die. Now, that calls for real decision making.
The resource can be anything, credits, mana, action points, you name it.

Maybe it is mentioned before. But some way of tracking results can help too.
That way, weaker rolls will still mean something in the long run.

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut