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The "Legacy" Mechanic & Destruction

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PuppyShogun
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For those of you following the hippest trends in game design, I imagine that in the next two or three years there will be a good chunk of game designers with a "Legacy" game in the works. (If you are unfamiliar with Risk Legacy, or at least the innovative concept behind the game, check it out on BGG)

I don't necessarily want to define exactly what a Legacy game is, but I'd love to brainstorm the main concept that I find intriguing: permanently damaging the board game over multiple plays. This is something that is exceedingly difficult to balance in a game design, as most board game consumers do NOT want to burn/marr/destroy their beloved game. Plus, with destruction comes possible unforeseen circumstances and emergent behavior that could totally wreck the fun-factor. But it's oh so satisfying!

For now though, my main question: In what meaningful ways can a board game be destroyed? What kind of actions could cause permanent, inescapable damage or alteration to a board game or card game?

(just to note: It's not as easy as you might think. If you are supposed to "destroy" a card by ripping it up, technically a finicky owner could just place it back in the box. But, for example, choosing a sticker and placing it on the board, is effectively permanent.)

Corsaire
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Obviously, permanent markers

Obviously, permanent markers is one way. I think stickers are neat. If a board started out as blank and stickers were affixed to it, that might move past the don't destroy it into more of a create it mindset. For cards, hole punches would be a way to permanent mark, but also give them a longer lifespan. Like have basically generations of campaigns, it could have a hole punch into a box marked one to be removed from the first generation play of a campaign.

A game system that included a device for altering or destroying could be fun. Like a card sized mini printer, small shredder, or having heat sensitive materials that are melted in a device. A pressure embosser would be a semi-destructive way to mark without destroying.

Cardboard could have prepunched holes, remove the filler to disable it. Or in that vein, they could already be removed and you jam something into the hole to either remove it, or to indicate a permanent change.

And of course glue offers certain advantages.

zmobie
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One thing I've been thinking

One thing I've been thinking about for a legacy mechanic is a card that represents, say for example, a character in a game. The character card has a sticker on it, and the sticker has -2 Force printed on it, effectively giving him -2 force. The character then has the ability to remove that sticker, and give it to another character as an attack. Underneath where the sticker was, it says +2 force. So it's a permanent 4 force swing in some game.

questccg
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Familiar concept

zmobie wrote:
...The character card has a sticker on it, and the sticker has -2 Force printed on it, effectively giving him -2 force. The character then has the ability to remove that sticker, and give it to another character as an attack. Underneath where the sticker was, it says +2 force...

You know what I think: "Micro" cards (1.25in x 1.75in) which are really small - use of *silver* SCRATCHY like subtance you can use to *randomly* enhance existing Poker cards. Kinda like what "zmobie" was saying. He was talking about sticker, I'm talking about "scratchies" (like scratch lottos)...

Once one of those SCRATCHY cards is finished, you can decide if you LIKE the end-result or TRASH IT and buy more micro scratchies to further enhance your next game! :)

Like maybe one square is a +2 force (once you scratch that - maybe you want to STOP scratching more...) It would definitely encourage buying more micro cards (to scratch)! Very "addictive" feature... And like I mentioned earlier, you could trash the micro cards with sucky results!

drktron
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Weird thought: What if the

Weird thought:

What if the board was a thinner material (like the mats from TGC) and over the course of the legacy game it was folded in various ways. New information/board elements from the back side are brought to the front side in spatially specific ways. New mats can be added and interwoven and subsequently folded in.

When the game is over you have an origami crane keepsake (j/k)

zmobie
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Or maybe a card with

Or maybe a card with perforations on it. All the icons on a card make up one powerful game-piece, but you can rip off the perforations to use them for their resources, but it weakens the unit.

Kroz1776
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Options Abound

First off it really depends on the game you're talking about. Risk we already know a lot of the ways you can change that game, but what about a game like Monopoly. How could you make a Monopoly Legacy? Destroy a chance card, raise the price on a property, name a property, put down stickers to add new effects to different spaces. What if you placed a sticker on board walk that said go to jail. Ouch, that would really hurt, or placing a sticker on free parking saying go to board walk. That would hurt too. Another way to change that game is to add abilities to different die rolls and what not.

Let's look at a different game now. Agricola Legacy! I could see lots of card shredding there and even some cow/animal buring (yes burn the little wooden cows). I could also see stickers being added in that game or even having scoring change. I could see families being chosen, where each player would pick which special ability each family would get for the rest of forever, much like Risk Legacy. Heck this would even work for Monopoly. If you pick the money bag you could pick between getting more money when passing go or some other money based ability.

I could see the destruction of a whole board section in a game where there is a world map. This could simulate that Atlantis is gone for good and is not going to resurface for your next game. Or maybe instead of Atlantis sinking it's China or Rome!

wolfpunk
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I have been working on a

I have been working on a legacy style card game with three features, card burning, card naming, and card promoting. So each round 1 card will be removed from the game, one card will get a permanent +1 bonus to it, and 1 card will get named. Named cards gain access to a special ability. Cards with a +1 count as worth one point more when they "battle" and the burned cards are not shuffle back into the deck between rounds. My plan is to provide card sleeves and either stickers or a permanent marker. I thought about the physical destruction of cards, but I wouldn't want to destroy something I had bought if I could help it, so for a card game, sleeves seem the way to go.

PuppyShogun
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thanks for the replies! I

thanks for the replies! I really like some of these ideas (origami folding board, scratch off or removable stickers) as I might have never considered them. The idea of permanence is something strange and scary, but I think (especially in the budget card or board game category) there is a ton of space for creativity. I buy downloadable video game titles all the time and while I don't delete them and destroy them, there is something temporary and fascinating about the process. $10 to rip and burn for four hours or so sounds completely worth it.

But, I say, keep it permanent permanent. I can avoid ripping up a card, or burning a meeple. Folding a card in half, placing a sticker, scratching off a sticker to reveal the underneath, "naming" a card, ripping the card into little pieces and using those pieces during gameplay, using a sharpie on a meeple, poking holes in the actual gamebox... Yes, the possibilities seem endless, but I really enjoy discovering unique ways to consider a new mechanic.

CrazyAlbin
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Old school

I think I'm more old school. The idea might seem interesting at first glance. But what to do when you have totally ripped apart the game and messed it up to the degree where the only solution is to buy a new game?

I believe a game should have endless playability. What do burning and ripping up cards promote? Can't really find the English words for it but I'm not buying it.

I however like the campaign idea. Removing cards, adding stuff etc. Bring along some extra bits and sets of rules to play with. That's nice, but I want to be able to play a second hand game without it being total ripped apart by the former user.

//Albin

questccg
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Well my scratching concept is...

If you play *scratch* lotteries... you'll soon find that they are *addictive*... If you have Micro cards (really small size - and lower cost to product) that can be matched with standard poker cards, it's not that bad of an idea to have *scratchy* like "experience"! Like if a card has 5 scratches, each with different bonuses, you could be tempted to *scratch to your heart's content*! ;)

Like I said, if you design it to be like a lottery, most tickets will produce average results. But then again SOME will produce WINNING cards that you would want to keep! So it's like you buy a bunch of cards, scratch (no sniffing) and the cards that *suck* you can rip them apart, burn them, fold them in half,do whatever destruction you like... You're going to dump them in the trash anyways! :D

That might prove to be a *nice* way to lower your stress level: destroy a bunch of Micro cards that are *too common* (so useless) and go out and buy MORE Micro cards to scratch!!!

You get the picture...!

CrazyAlbin
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questccg wrote:If you play

questccg wrote:
If you play *scratch* lotteries... you'll soon find that they are *addictive*... If you have Micro cards (really small size - and lower cost to product) that can be matched with standard poker cards, it's not that bad of an idea to have *scratchy* like "experience"! Like if a card has 5 scratches, each with different bonuses, you could be tempted to *scratch to your heart's content*! ;)

Like I said, if you design it to be like a lottery, most tickets will produce average results. But then again SOME will produce WINNING cards that you would want to keep! So it's like you buy a bunch of cards, scratch (no sniffing) and the cards that *suck* you can rip them apart, burn them, fold them in half,do whatever destruction you like... You're going to dump them in the trash anyways! :D

That might prove to be a *nice* way to lower your stress level: destroy a bunch of Micro cards that are *too common* (so useless) and go out and buy MORE Micro cards to scratch!!!

You get the picture...!

Well, I didn't write any arguments before but that's one of my points questccg. First I want a game which I can play over and over again without buying new stuff all the time. Second, a game which is built to be addictive isn't a good way to do it. Even if you earn a heck load of money from it.

I know we are game designers who try to build fun and interesting games and want people to play it many a times and enjoy it. but get them addicted to it. No!

We live in a consuming society which lives over it maximum resources. I don't want to go into it further. But maximizing profit by getting players addictive to your game and buy things over and over again which they throw away isn't my cup of the.

I want to have one cost, one game, play it as long as you want. Ooh an expansion. That might work. But everything nowadays must be so commercial. I don't like it.

No, I'm not a commie and yes, I don't like WoW and PtPs.

I play Warhammer, if you look at how they been the past few years they have gone bananas and try to make the customer to over consummate their products. I made an order of 300€ two weeks ago, guess I'm stuck in it :/

Well, some may find me a bit out of topic but my point is that destroying, or wasting things you buy is a bad way to go. And there we have nature's resources, human rights, environment, sustainable society etc. etc. A game designer in my meaning should build the game as environmental friendly as possible.

Says I who been looking for a possible production in china :S

*I don't mean to offend anyone* :)

//Albin

questccg
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You can play *normally* too!

CrazyAlbin wrote:
Well, I didn't write any arguments before but that's one of my points questccg. First I want a game which I can play over and over again without buying new stuff all the time. Second, a game which is built to be addictive isn't a good way to do it. Even if you earn a heck load of money from it.

You can PLAY the game AS MANY TIMES AS YOU LIKE without *scratching* any Micro cards... Same as your *traditional/standard* game...

BUT you can be *tempted* into scratching Micro cards to reveal HIGHER REWARDS!

That's the KEY point. You don't HAVE TO, you will WANT TO... Or most players would, to get better Micro cards as part of your game experience. And the process can be repeated.

So maybe you spend like $10 for 50 Micro cards... And at first you play the game without having the *urge* to scratch them... Maybe you do that two or three times... And then you say: "Hmm... I want to see what BONUS I can get...?!" Something like that...

It's another ASPECT to game play which is *variable*, *repeatable* and doesn't affect the standard/default game!!!

questccg
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Waste is a fact of life

CrazyAlbin wrote:
Well, some may find me a bit out of topic but my point is that destroying, or wasting things you buy is a bad way to go. And there we have nature's resources, human rights, environment, sustainable society etc. etc. A game designer in my meaning should build the game as environmental friendly as possible.

Well Albin, I guess you are not a Magic: the Gathering fan... If you were, the first thing you would have mentioned is how WASTEFUL Magic: the Gathering REALLY IS. Don't get why? LAND CARDS required to produce mana for your creatures ARE WASTED BY THE TON. Most players need 10 to 15 of these cards. When you buy Magic boosters, you always get MORE LAND CARDS... What do players do? Dump them into a shoe box... And this was not even *hardcore* collectors. The amount of land cards that are PURE waste is *serious*.

It's probably MORE wasteful than my idea of using *scratch* cards!!! No kidding. I said Micro cards, because they are smaller in size (so less waste). But Magic's Land cards are full size Poker cards...

Note: For COLLECTORS the game is EVEN MORE WASTEFUL. You know how many doubles and triples you get just to chase a RARE card???

I am working on another game project with *rarity* and it will be a matter of *pure chance* that players earn a Ultra-Rare, Legendary-Rare or Mythical-Rare: it's only 10% of that category.

Exact (calculated) odds are:
Common = 51%
Uncommon = 26%
Rare = 13%
Ultra-Rare = 6%
Legendary-Rare = 3%
Mythical-Rare = 1%

CrazyAlbin
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Buying more crap for more money

questccg wrote:
You can PLAY the game AS MANY TIMES AS YOU LIKE without *scratching* any Micro cards... Same as your *traditional/standard* game...

BUT you can be *tempted* into scratching Micro cards to reveal HIGHER REWARDS!

That's the KEY point. You don't HAVE TO, you will WANT TO... Or most players would, to get better Micro cards as part of your game experience. And the process can be repeated.

So maybe you spend like $10 for 50 Micro cards... And at first you play the game without having the *urge* to scratch them... Maybe you do that two or three times... And then you say: "Hmm... I want to see what BONUS I can get...?!" Something like that...

It's another ASPECT to game play which is *variable*, *repeatable* and doesn't affect the standard/default game!!!

Sometimes you think you want to, but its just your brain messing with you, saying you HAVE TO cause your addictive.

I don't like the idea. The setup is too much built around; You (customer) buying more crap for more money. Another aspect you say. Why not just give them a good well thought expansion. Not spam them with rules they have tons of already. What I'm against is producing cards/things that no one really wants and have it as your marketing plan already from the beginning.

And yes, what you explain with lands in Mtg is a shame :/ I don't like the idea where the one who spend most money wins. Luckily I have managed to keep most of my friends away from Mtg :)

I understand the thrill of revealing new cards. but I get enough of it by just go through the deck reading them. Some don't, I guess.

//Albin

Toa Lewa
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I just had a crazy idea.

I just had a crazy idea. What if you had perforated trading cards, and the perforated sections had special abilities on them. When playing the card game, your opponent can use special abilities that literally rip your special abilities away from you. When they use an ability like this, they take your card and rip one of the perforations off.

Can you imagine playing a card game like this? I could see a lot of people getting frustrated since their deck that they spent a lot of time putting together could become useless after a bad game. Personally, I would not want to play a game like this, but I thought I would throw the idea out there.

Jpwoo
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mass vs hobby

One thing that Risk Legacy has going for it, is the massive production run. it is easier to deface and destroy something which is easily replaced. Designing such mechanisms into a game with a much smaller production run I feel is a bit more risky. Defacing a hobby game probably means destroying the only copy you are ever going to own.

There are probably other options to give you the same effect. Lets say your game includes a deck of cards, it is easy to have a mechanic that adds or removes cards from a deck, and that remains constant between plays. But that could also easily be reset if you like as well.

questccg
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I like it!

Toa Lewa wrote:
I just had a crazy idea. What if you had perforated trading cards, and the perforated sections had special abilities on them. When playing the card game, your opponent can use special abilities that literally rip your special abilities away from you. When they use an ability like this, they take your card and rip one of the perforations off.

Toa Lewa that is a FANTASTIC Legacy idea! I really like it...

It's kind of a *mean spirited* concept - but it's only a GAME! But I can definitely see some people getting upset during a game! Revenge in such a game would be *sweet*! :P

Put in tandem with the scratch idea - your opponent's could *screw* with your Micro cards... So no only do you get to *scratch* them positively, your opponent's can completely ruin some of your cards during a game...

Again very *nasty*! But the game's concept is designed to be *temporary*...

Toa Lewa
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Quote:Toa Lewa that is a

Quote:
Toa Lewa that is a FANTASTIC Legacy idea! I really like it...

It's kind of a *mean spirited* concept - but it's only a GAME! But I can definitely see some people getting upset during a game! Revenge in such a game would be *sweet*! :P

Put in tandem with the scratch idea - your opponent's could *screw* with your Micro cards... So no only do you get to *scratch* them positively, your opponent's can completely ruin some of your cards during a game...

Again very *nasty*! But the game's concept is designed to be *temporary*...

Yeah, it is pretty mean. I think a little too mean for my taste. However, the card game could include cards that have "protector" and "sacrificer" abilities. Protectors could prevent important cards from losing their abilities, and sacrifices could sacrifice a perforated section to prevent other cards from getting hurt.

With this element, it would be up to the player to protect their "babies" from getting hurt. Players would have to weigh risks and could get into metagame dilemmas. Should I risk playing my super fire beast without protection to win the game? If my plan fails, my card could become worthless for future games.

Man, I have never played a game that would be this tense.

questccg
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But still GREAT ideas!

Toa Lewa wrote:
Yeah, it is pretty mean. I think a little too mean for my taste. However, the card game could include cards that have "protector" and "sacrificer" abilities. Protectors could prevent important cards from losing their abilities, and sacrifices could sacrifice a perforated section to prevent other cards from getting hurt.

With this element, it would be up to the player to protect their "babies" from getting hurt. Players would have to weigh risks and could get into metagame dilemmas. Should I risk playing my super fire beast without protection to win the game? If my plan fails, my card could become worthless for future games.

Man, I have never played a game that would be this tense.

Toa Lewa that's MORE great ideas ("protector", "sacrificer")... Having other cards to protect your "precious" cards... Definitely more going on in the metagame, which is REAL COOL. Super suggestions, they really bring together the concept of a Legacy-like game with *some* protection! Haha! :P

A "Blocker" card could actually serve to block an opponent from inflicting damage to your cards! Love it...

You've really brought *fresh* ideas to this topic! I agree that maybe such a game might be too *cruel* to play... The players might be very cut-throat... And if you value your cards, it might be hard to see them get trashed by the other players... Definitely not a game for kids.

Update: Also not a game for gamers who like to WIN all the time. Losing once might really piss them off! ;)

Toa Lewa
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Weak Cards

Quote:
Toa Lewa that's MORE great ideas ("protector", "sacrificer")... Having other cards to protect your "precious" cards... Definitely more going on in the metagame, which is REAL COOL. Super suggestions, they really bring together the concept of a Legacy-like game with *some* protection! Haha! :P

A "Blocker" card could actually serve to block an opponent from inflicting damage to your cards! Love it...

You've really brought *fresh* ideas to this topic! I agree that maybe such a game might be too *cruel* to play... The players might be very cut-throat... And if you value your cards, it might be hard to see them get trashed by the other players... Definitely not a game for kids.

Thanks Quest. One thing that I thought about is that this system creates an automatic emphasis on weak/junk cards. In most CCGs, weak cards are worthless and players don't use them. With a mechanic like this, players can utilize junk cards as cannon fodder and save their special cards. Once their junk cards get ripped up, they will need more. This means that weak cards would actually be utilized in a game like this, which is a problem with other CCGs. I'm starting to like this mechanic!

Corsaire
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Cheers to opponents tearing

Cheers to opponents tearing off parts of your cards, not since ante was removed from Magic (or the video Bambi Meets Godzilla) has the chance to make grown men cry been greater.

PuppyShogun
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Corsaire wrote:Cheers to

Corsaire wrote:
Cheers to opponents tearing off parts of your cards, not since ante was removed from Magic (or the video Bambi Meets Godzilla) has the chance to make grown men cry been greater.

I think Toa is right about the tension. But, this is a really good point. Way back when, Richard Garfield was like, "who the heck is going to care so much about their cards that an Ante game would be a problem?" As a designer, he had absolutely no clue that Magic would STILL be around twenty years later. Or that the price of that Ante'd Alpha Black Lotus would be enough to pay for your kid's entire college career.

CCGs may be effectively dead in the hobby market, but never underestimate the power of collectibility over permanence. Guaranteed, players would find a work-around. But, on a small board game or card game scale, i love the idea. It's still ripping a card, but the psychology behind it is much more enhanced.

CrazyAlbin wrote:

No, I'm not a commie and yes, I don't like WoW and PtPs.

Well, some may find me a bit out of topic but my point is that destroying, or wasting things you buy is a bad way to go. And there we have nature's resources, human rights, environment, sustainable society etc. etc. A game designer in my meaning should build the game as environmental friendly as possible.


To be honest, I think the best way for a designer to be environmentally friendly is to create a solid game. Paper is biodegradable, and on this small of a scale, planting a tree would be overkill to offset carbon emissions.

But, Albin is playing the standard, but excellent devil's advocate in the argument. Legacy ideas may be more intriguing for designers than consumers as the concept of destroying a game that was bought with real money is going to be alien to 95% of the potential audience. After playing, I think even casual gamers will "get" it, but no one wants to kill their shiny new baby.

I think the scratch-off idea has potential, but allowing scratching anytime in a CCG is as close to evil as you get. (Off-topic: It's not just "addiction," it's gambling. People already complain about "chasing" cards in MTG, so now you're chasing AND just to destroy the card's value. If Magic came out with this, I don't even play Magic and I'd be one of the peeps railing against them and calling for a lawsuit for illegal gambling practices.) Having a bonus appear as a gift for winning, or as a last-resort option during a climactic fight is very interesting. The destruction has to be meaningful and weighty and permanent. The mindset I find the most intriguing is the balance between the current game versus the campaign. The question of when or what do I destroy or alter (which can be dulled if the choice is constantly presented) is my favorite aspect. Personally, I'm less interested in the "ooh shiny" moment, and more interested in fear.

Toa Lewa
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New Thread

I created a new thread for my ripping your opponents card idea. The link is below.

Rip Your Opponents Card to Shreds

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