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Miniature Wargaming Combat Mechanic Using Chit Pull. Need advise.

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cameron77
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Ive been working on a miniature wargame that uses a chit pull system instead of dice. The idea behind the chit pull system is that the player, depending on the moves they make and decisions their commanders make, modifies what chits are in the cup. More simple than it sounds, but what I'm in need of is some ideas for how close combat can be carried out. Below is what I'm thinking about.

Idea #1

I was thinking that when units engage one another, they have stats like any other wargame, that when compared tell the players how many chits they can pull. Chits will represent striking in combat, defending, special skills, so on. When pulled, the players compare how many strikes they get with their opponents defense totals, if the attacker has more strikes, they damage. Pretty simple, typical idea.

Idea #2

I was considering using a style of combat inspired by elder sign. Each unit has icons that determine what is needed to score hits on them in combat and shooting. I find this idea more different/interesting than idea #1, but my issue with it is certain units may be at a huge disadvantage in combat with certain units, where the chits in the cup lack the proper chits to match their defense. For example, I might be fighting a monster that requires 3 heavy hitter chits to damage, and the player only has 1 in his cup of 10 or more chits. I'd need ideas around this.

I could make there be some sort of trading chits system where if you score so many of a certain kind of chit, they can be traded in for the required chits to damage an enemy unit. Or, I could include critical hit chits that damage anything? Another idea would be to keep track of what was pulled each round against the enemy, for example my regiment is fighting a monster which requires 3 heavy hitter chits, and I pull 1 heavy hitter that round, mark the monster as having received 1 heavy hitter. But that requires a ton of record keeping.

Any ideas? Is this making sense to anyone?

X3M
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I hear ya. Idea 2 sounds good

I hear ya.

Idea 2 sounds good already.
How about you turn this pulling of chits into some sort of resources for your army?
Meaning that you indeed save up what you pull from the cup. Of course you put these chits back in. But you keep track of what you pulled out.

So a heavy hit that requires 3 chits can be done eventually. But if you want to do a light hit, you can spend that one chit already.

Tbone
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Interesting Enough

Is there anyway to modify the bag further? Not just depending on what the commander does? Can you change the characteristics of your character by buying more heavy hitter chits? I like the idea of being able to swap out for ones you need. Could there be two sides to chits? One thats defensive and one that is aggressive?

You can do a lot with your #1 idea I feel. If you could tech up with your units and buy better chits this could be cool. Maybe you start with 2 "miss" chits, 3 "strike" chits, 1 "double strike" chit, and maybe some other special chit? Then you could upgrade your unit and maybe get a "charge" chit that allows you to cancel an enemies strike chit. Maybe a stealth chit that allows you to deal double damage if hitting the unit from behind? (I dont know much about your game just spit-balling).

Those are some of my ideas.

Tbone

cameron77
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Yes

Tbone:
The bag will represent the overall battle plan for the army, with the initial basic chits in there. When a player selects his/her commanders, he/she picks commanders who each can modify what is in the bag differently. One commander, known for being vicious in combat, may be able to add a heavy hitter chip in the bag. Another, known better for increasing morale, may be able to add a command chit, but must discard a heavy hitter chit out of the bag. That was my initial idea.

I havn't thought about 2 sided chits. Pulling for defense could use one side, pulling for offense another. Interesting?

My concern with the Elder Sign method of determining what wounds/kills a unit is that players can simply build their chit piles to suit the enemy defense requirements. I want more thought to it than that.

Soulfinger
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Do the chits go back into the

Do the chits go back into the bag after they are used or are they depleted?

cameron77
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They Go Back

They go back into the bag to be reused each pull. The idea is to control the ratio of chits you have, kinda like in deck builder games where you control how many of a certain card you have.

ElKobold
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Btw, what kind of miniature

Btw, what kind of miniature wargame you have in mind? I.e. - how many units. And how many draws from the cup you expect per turn?

Reason i`m asking is that the whole chit thing might take quite some time if you plan to resolve every attack like that. Considering that in miniature wargames there are usually quite a few attack rolls per turn.

cameron77
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I know what you're saying

I pondered that myself. While I would love to do 1/72 scale fantasy miniatures, there is not enough available. I will probably be settling on 15mm miniatures, probably around 2-6 stands per unit, and games could scale up to probably 6 or so regiments.

While this is till in the planning phases, I hope to make combat as simple as possible, yet still interesting. I'd say you would pull once for each regiment involved in a combat, and maybe once per defense as well (so twice). So in a combat featuring 2 units, each player would pull approx. 3-4 times. That may be too many, I dunno?

I will alpha test this like stated above, and if that proves to be too many pulls, I may find a way to consolidate the pulls into 1 or 2 pulls per unit.

ElKobold
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Here's this idea from the top

Here's this idea from the top of my head. Use it or drop it :)

Imagine if you were to draw not just combat values, but entire moves from the bag.
So you have two-sided chits. Each has actions on them. One on each side. One side - weaker effect, the other side - more powerful.

For ex.:
Chit #1 Defense / +1 Move
Chit #2 Movement / +1 Attack
Chit #3 Attack / +1 Defense

Each turn you would draw X chits from the bag.
And then you start resolving them in turn order.
I.e.:
- I use my chit #2 to make a short move.
- You attack my unit.
- I use my chit #3 to defend +1 and immediately counter-attack

etc

That way you will get to draw once, and then it's all about decision making - which chits to use and when.

Much more strategy, than announcing action and then drawing to resolve. Also faster.

cameron77
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Interesting.

So the chits would take on an issue order role, but not a determine outcomes roll?

ElKobold
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cameron77 wrote:So the chits

cameron77 wrote:
So the chits would take on an issue order role, but not a determine outcomes roll?

Both. You can have both action and value there. Or value modifier, as in example above.

mikenvp
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What if the chits you pulled

What if the chits you pulled had symbols found on your units rather than those found on your opponent? So, your bag can be filled with chits that will reflect your army rather than those that reflect your opponent's army. I like the idea of double-sided chits and that you pull them and then decide how to spend them.

Pulling chits to determine outcomes seems like it would be frustrating when trying to strategize. The dice in Elder Sign can be frustrating when they don't roll your way, but as the player, you always know the probability of succeeding on a given action. If you have a whole mess of chits in a bag, it becomes more difficult to keep that probability in your head. Take Quarriors for instance. I may know how many of each dice are in the bag, but I can't really strategize each turn because I can't know what I will pull. When I do pull those dice, it is up to me to utilize the dice in a way that I have the best turn possible. Dominion is similar. I can't know what I will draw in a full deck, but I can decide how to use what I draw. The chit pull as outcome would be purely random, albeit with an ability to guess what the outcome might be after potentially failing over and over for a bunch of turns.

Tbone
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Macro/Micro

For each side of the chit you could have a Macro option (resources, upgrades, building up) and a Micro option (moving, attacking, special abilities). Depending on your strategy you can pick which one you want to use. These would most likely be different actions.

You could incorporate a Stash mechanic which allows you to hold on to chits for later use. Also, to soften the randomness, you can add a Swap mechanic that allows you to take back one or two chits for another? Maybe trade two for one?

This would take away the time constraints because you will take these chits from the bag and configure your turn structure. Players can even do this simultaneously to decrease downtime.

If you want these chits to act in combat, you can add a value to them as well.

Just some thoughts.

cameron77
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Thanks everyone for comments

Currently my rules have 10 chits as a beginning number. 4 attack, 3 command, 2 defense and 1 special chit. I don't see the bag getting any more than 15 in total at one time (more commonly 12). I think that's pretty manageable, especially if you are allowed to view the chits in your bag before each turn. Play-testing will determine if that will be feasible. I feel ya on quarriors and dominion, I usually have an idea (feeling based) on what I need and have too much of in dominion, but that's not always accurate as you'd imagine.

I've considered the two-sided chits thing. It may develop into that later on? I've put on order some chits to be printed for me to use for play-testing (I like to have actual components for things like that).

Double sided chits are interesting. To have one side of the chit have a mundane effect (like move +1), and the other have an unrelated but more epic effect (like Attack +3), is interesting. Do you hold the epic effect or use the mundane effect because it is more beneficial at the moment? My only trouble is making this fit into my overall plan for the game. I dont want to make a game where my random chits (even if varied) dictates what actions I can take, so I would keep these as bonuses to my actions. But then again, I would like the chits to determine the outcome of my actions, is it a success?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding? Would the player draw the double sided chits each combat, and see what they are able to boost from that?

ElKobold
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The main difference in what I

The main difference in what I was suggesting was that you get random array of options of which you pick your action. The outcome itself is not random. So more "euro" approach there. Drawing chits after the attack is more "ameritrashy". Both approaches work, but will most likely appeal to different kinds of players.

cameron77
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Question

Are there any other games that use the system you are talking about?

ElKobold
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cameron77 wrote:Are there any

cameron77 wrote:
Are there any other games that use the system you are talking about?

The exact same one with chits? Not that I know of.

But the approach itself is pretty much standard euro. Random before decision, as opposed to decision and then random.

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