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race of races and statistics of stats

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mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010

Okay the background mechanics that may or may not be referenced during this post.
base class-advanced class-mastery class
there are three base classes a player may start as these are the main classes that determine that basic style of play you will most likely have. They are mage, fighter and expert. You can never take a level in a second base class, (of course after seeing the advanced and mastery classes, you wouldnt want to) each base class may allow for selection of an advanced class, some advanced classes may be chosen by all three, some may be chosen by only one or two classes. Advanced classes are a bit more powerful than the base classes (A fighter/barbarian at levels 5/3 most likely will outclass (puns intended) a fighter level 8(depending on how you build your character, and after I release the final version what abilities are gained at what level). Each character may have up to 2advanced classes. Mastery classes are far greater than base classes, While most are more open to what classes they allow, they have special requirements that must be met that are far easier to get with certain other classes (for example, the sharpshooter class is far more compatable with the marksman class as opposed to the sorcerer class. Mastery classes are also more limited in how far they progress level wise. A character only gets one mastery class.
also each class has its own experience, a character attempting to achieve another class must set aside experience to get that class.

magic system
in this game all character may cast magic regardless of class. Magic levels independently of character (a bit more work to keep track of, especially when you take into account what I am about to tell you) magic levels by a decimal system, ie .1, .2, .3, this determines magic cost to cast, and wether a caster meets the required caster level to cast it or learn it, once a spell makes a full circle on level(ie a level 1.3 spell makes it to 2.3) it upgrades its abilities(mostly at the players whim, however spells level on a slightly linear path, ie if your spell encompasses range and damage but not teleportation, the new level cannot add teleportation, if your spell has teleportation, it cant gain damage.) The magic system has a VERY elaborate player spell creation system, there are premade spells of course, to help show players how each effect works, however they will not be fully optimized, and possibly would be weaker at higher levels.(while spell level is determined by the player, this increases the starting spell level, and spells do not progress as strongly as a spell created at that level with the same abilities, while this may lead to players simply creating new spells every chance they get, spell crafting is a bit tougher than just having the spell on paper. there is no need to go over this as you have all the info that you need to know at this point)

stats
now here is where you will hear the question, so pay really close attention
stats are divided into two groups, your basic stats, and your advanced stats.
advanced stats may have limits on how high they may be increased, and who can take them (some classes unlock stats, some races unlock stats.) Just because you have access to advanced stats does not make your character better than another, after all luck does not increase health.
classes do not determine health, defense, max magic points, damage, or what skills(called talents) a character takes.
your endurance and race determines health(for example), different sized races create different health bonuses.
characters gain stat points each level.
stats are well spread out, having high points in strength might make you cause more damage overall, but you may want to spread stats more usefully, if you want to use magic, you will need your intelligence, if you want to take a hit, your endurance.
while there are not a ton of stats, (currently only 3 advanced)
in most D&D styled games(specifically 3rd edition era) you have skills(as I said earlier I call them talents, remember this from now on I will ONLY say talents...I told you to pay attention earlier in the post)
however I suddnely had an idea, focusing on more versatile characters, making my game focused on even heavier realism than it already has(actually I removed alot of the factors that make it realistic recently, didnt like them) a person who is good at talking himself out of things might not be so good at combat (The game is set up for some heavy role playing, and an easier NOT DYING system, ie a lower level character can ressurect(more or less you ressurect based on targets level, a spell that ressurects up to characters level 5 wont ressurect a level 6 character until the spell itself levels up enough)
I am thinking of removing the talents and instead adding a few more advanced stats, such as Rhetoric, thief craft, smithing, and the likes. I havent worked too much on talents, as I prefer DM's to make up what causes what...the entire game system is fairly advanced, got it broken up into easy bits to understand though. this would remove the second set of points to place, and do what everyone likes(keeping things simple) 'specially since I had quite the array of talents.
This would help remove one thing I personally hate, the limited skill systems in other games (I lied I used skill this time instead of talents) such as a max at first level when there is a vast array of skills and limited point placement, especially if I want a diplomatic character.
This will also force players into more specialized roles, while defining their characters and keeping them original compared to other player characters. (While having only three base classes looks like it forces characters into roles...it really does not.I thought it might, and was relieve to see that it doesnt, as I am not attempting to confine players to exact roles, except for how they wish to play, or at least how the gm(game master!) wishes them to play, depending on how different groups act with eachother I suppose lol.)

What I want to know is how everyone here thinks about this change in system, and how they would react.
and also, I want to know is your opinions on wether I should limit max starting rank of battle stats more than non-combat stats or I should have the same begining limit on every stat.
possibly you could tell me what other stats aside from Rhetoric and the others mentioned above, that might be helpful in case I missed other required skills for a game(not doing things such as climbing, jumping, and the likes, those can be based off of physical stats.

Now the second part is about races, and the reason I put this second is just because I am looking for opinions on something basic.
races are usually preped to be better suited for classes, my game has a WIDE variety of races. in real life just because your larger doesnt mean your stronger, stronger is stronger. longer legs arent always faster. faster is always faster.
an orc may or may not be stronger than a human, but should these be in additional stats? or should each race give only non-stat based bonuses? each race is also split into sub-races which give additional bonuses. I also have a half race system which takes a little bit from each race and allows you to build whatever race you want.(minotaur-dwarf?Why not? elf-goblin?sure. Dragon-gnome?be my guest! Troll-ogre?sounds legit....oh btw, no dragons are not a playable race, except for being in the half race list...the rest mentioned are, along with a plethora of others.) maybe each race should be static and only get bonuses they normally get from size difference and spell targeting?(some spells may target specific races and/or racial types)
or youve got a better idea? (also currently bonus stats from races count towards max starting stat, meaning if two differnt raced character focused all the way in endurance, they would max out the same)

any and all input would be nice. burn me down or set me on a totem pole, or whatever else you want.

Orangebeard
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Joined: 10/13/2011
Conflicting goals?

Hi Mindwarper10,

If you are picturing a game where the characters truly "grow" into their abilities, then I would not limit them early, but would instead limit them later. For example, after a character has spent their 50th point in melee combat or selected their 2nd advanced class, then they will not be able to spend more than 30 points in magic, etc.

To answer one your questions, I think I would go with racial bonuses being non-stat oriented. If stat bonuses count towards the max, then 2 fully maxed characters are effectively identical stat-wise. At that point, it will only be non-stat bonuses and gear that make them different.

I think both are great ideas, but an "elaborate spell creation" system and a "heavy role play" system seem to conflict. Would these be betters starting points for 2 different games?

To answer another, I don't think I would limit starting battle ranks or non-combat ranks. Let the players select their own backstories and abilities and focus more on shaping their futures. As they level up, the GM will give them chances to raise or learn new skills.

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
Actually I just relooked over

Actually I just relooked over my starting stats and realized I already removed the limit in one of my older revisions...now I feel kinda stupid for saying anything about the limit. At first I had a higher starting points than the limit, but I didnt want anyone going all out in a stat or two such as endurance and strength, meaning from the start they would be nearly unstoppable, especially starting with a larger race. You'd think I would have seen that before posting...haha...wow me...so the bottom answer is already done.
But im not really trying to limit them, so much as keep them from being overpowering in some way.

the next one up, my spell system is designed so that players can create their own spells, exactly how they want them, how could the spell creation system conflict with the role playing? especially if they interlink along with mechanics so that players arent crafting spells on the fly just whenever they need them? role playing makes the game feel more alive, while the system keeps it fair and balanced. I spent alot of time on my spell creation system, so if anything is going out the door for this game ,its not that!

so do you mean no stat bonuses whatsoever, or light stat bonuses, with no counting towards a max? Its a good thing I already got rid of the max..ha...ha...ha... >_<
anyways, it seems that creating the races is the hardest part for me.

and finally(gotta love my reverse ordering...I know I am rediculous)
So what you mean is as say one stat increases, possibly reduce the max possible for another stat? or at least make it more expensive to buy? If im getting you wrong could you please try and explain more? That seems like it would be a bit difficult, I mean I suppose I could have a max stat block for each race and then have the class modify the max.

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
Cant let this just dissapear

Cant let this just dissapear yet, as this question has all to do with at least one important aspect that will help define my game. I need more replies, key word NEED.

James Rex
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Joined: 12/10/2011
Hello! While I admire your

Hello!

While I admire your enthusiasm, there is a lot to read here. What I did read sounds a lot like the various class-based iterations of D&D with more complexity. However, there's too many vague ideas in the first half for me to grasp the fundamentals of the mechanics, so I'll skip that. I have no idea what the original game was before the changes you presented and wanted opinions on.

So, the short version should be: What is the resolution mechanic in your game? Can you give some examples of that, then relate it to the topics of how to limit your combat and non-combat stats? My opinion also is dependent on how frequent and lengthy do you intend combat to be.

As for the race/half-race idea, it's a little tricky to know what you want. It feels like you have too many choices. I do like the half-race idea but I feel like there need to be meaningful choices that would make me want to be a half-fey/half-ogre instead of just a human. If they're too generic, you could just let players just pick the stat bonuses separate from the race. If they're too specific, you risk power-gamers coming up with the "best build" scenario you see in D&D.

Races also tend to be very "fluff" specific. What exactly in your game world would cause so many cross-breeds? Seems everyone is rather frisky and genetically compatible.

Thanks,
James Rex
www.stompinggroundsgame.com

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
I do tend to go overboard

I do tend to go overboard when I type something up...
Well take any system and you can say the class system came from D&D, and for the most part you would be right, however I took ideas from various other games also, however since D&D was the first for me, its the easiest for me to compare to, plus its systems tend to be the most complex, which makes it the best comparison regardless. I guess the only way for you to fully understand it is if I gave you the entire set up, so I apologize, I was trying to get alot by only giving a little. However I can say that the game itself is based on and in league with a book that I am writing, thats what the game was before the changes lol...

and by limiting the combat/non-combat stats, what I really mean is from the start, forcing players to keep their stats at least slightly spread more, instead of say putting all their points in strength and endurance. While I could be similiar to D&D's point buy system, and each rank cost more as it progresses, im not sure why not to just say "you cant go any higher than this until after second level" as its essentially the same thing.
From a glance, I believe my combat may be slightly longer than a standard D&D fight. The frequency can be more often at lower levels due to not rellying on wizards resting, other than that its up to the guy running the game.

Well if it helps orcs have the ability to use non-weapon objects as if they were standard weapon they had training in! Dwarves get bonuses for fighting drunk! XD That was one my best friend wanted, I kinda felt it right to add...
Some of my races have things like those that can be useful during certain situations, while others have abilities that might target a more broad aspect ofthe game, while having this ability slightly less powerful than say...brawling drunk...

The half race idea started out from D&D (Again withe the dungeons and the dragons!). In D&D almost every creature, humanoid or not, seems to be genetically compatible with humans, especially once you branch out from the 3 core rule books. What I couldn't figure out is, how come theres a half human half orc and a half human half elf, but not a orc-elf? Then I started thinking, well in one of the books you can be half minotaur...ihalf dragon....and more...but these halves were in addition to the classes and races already chosen, they werent feats just add-ons...heriteges...making the character more powerful than another character built the same way...
but instead of having a half mix of each race, why not just let characters build how they want? Want a half dragon half minotaur?makes sense...want a dwarven Minotaur? wierd, but go ahead (actually in my book, one of the people my main character meets is making fun of a male minotaur who has a thing for small small girls...at this point its a dwarf, apparantly the last time it was a gnome...I just realized the majority of my comedy scenes seem to be sexualy based...wow, oh well too late to change now) While I get not everything would be compatable, I figured why stop the imagination fluids?

as for power gamers...a best build is inevitable, however what you probably mean are munchkinz, who instead of looking for just the ideal most optimized characters, look for the most game breaking god like builds that cant be stopped...optimization does not begin to describe these fowl beasts! anyways, one thing I noticed in D&D, every single class itself was overpowered...meaning they were pretty much equal, since everyone complained about some class being more powerful than another, wizard, monk, a rogues sneak attack?, hell even the fighter had his moments. some people say the fighter has to multiclass or be left behind...I disagree, and I am a wizard/psionic player...

What I reall need for stats/skills is a way to keep roleplaying and stats/skills synanamous (IE A woman doesnt just automatically charm a guard cause she says so, nobody picks a lock through words) I want players to build to fit themselves (Currently in my game, though till I play test it I can prove it, just being really strong or having the greatest magic isnt going to mean your instantly going to win.) Combat is supposed to be dynamic, to me D&D doesnt feel "dynamic" in its combat, unlike other games ive played, (Ill use BESM as an example, as its really become one of my favorites) Big Eyes Small Mouth (Obviously the original intent was to make Anime roleplays) has quite the design, it keeps a simple yet dynamic and complex form of gameplay. The combat has less too it, but feels more flexible and dynamic. I myself LOVE complexity, the more complex to me, the more intriguing. I also never have very much time (have a real farm, not a farmville or whatever facebook has), but dont mind if a game has to be cut short without a good stopping point (happened alot at lunch back in high school). Fighting in real life is dynamic, (I like fighting...alot)...I like the word....dynamic...(maybe because it has dyne in it, Barret Wallace's best friend in FF7...sad story, or it could be because its one of Zidanes powers in ff9...lol. or or...ill jsut shut up now...) but anyways, back to my point of fighting in real life. in real life, nobody is equal, im a small guy 5'5" im also really really strong, and really really fast, a deadly combo BOOM! add in my intelligence? yeah im a killing machine (With a mega ego). however, not everyone who fights is a major player in a fight, for example my best friend, who, while having his own set of combat skills, is a large rolly polly guy, I have no doubt that he has more intelligence points, and more diplomacy based skills.
one thing like I THINK I mentioned, I hated the limited skill ranks in D&D. A persons skills arent based on their intelligence, many people are more skilled than others and even have more skills (at higher ranks?lol real life D&D) than other people. These people might not have good combat abilities, might not be that intelligent, hell they arent always wise and dexterious either. By turning skills into less focused stats (IE things like diplomacy, intimidate, bluff, etc. could be Rhetoric as a stat) would make less paper, players would not have to look for a skill through a list of skills, you would have less to add up, and have to pay more attention to how you build your character, the term "im a lover not a fighter" couldnt be any more real. BESM lets you put however many skills you want, and since its all based on points, its still in place of abilities and stats and powers and all. I think if I did it this style however I would have to increase the starting points and make a limited starting amount so that nobody is waaay to powerful.

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