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Random Hidden - Does this logic jive?

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Sat, 05/09/2009 - 13:39
Torrent
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Concept: Hidden Selection.

Thoughts: A deck of X cards. 3 are chosen randomly and put into the game (face down, to players... dunno). These three together determine the Hidden Selected. Either through a table of lookups, or on the cards themselves, which ever name appears on all three is the one that is picked.

Seems like this might be a quasi thematic way to build tension into a game like Buffy or Arkham Horror. Instead of knowing from the outset what is going on, the players reveal the cards (or this is done at preset times). So players slowly have ideas.

Math: If you picked 3 cards, could you have any number of cards in the original selection deck? I want it so that any pair of cards contains multiple possibles, but without the cards being a list of 10 names each. and only with the third card the combo would be unique.

Source: Buffy tVampire Slayer game and Clue. Bits of arkham horror in the head too.

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Sat, 05/09/2009 - 15:15
#1
Xane
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Two cards would be easier.

Two cards would be easier. Then have a grid, with numbers 1-10 on the top, and 1-10 on the right side, and on each card have a number, then just look at the grid to see where the numbers intersect and you have your outcome.

So top-1 and right-1 = Outcome 1, top-1 right-2 = outcome 2, top-2 right-2 = outcome 4. Ect.

I don't think I'm making my self very clear, lemmie find a image of what I'm talking about.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa89/Xane225/crappyexamp.png

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Sat, 05/09/2009 - 16:00
#2
Torrent
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I'm really trying to avoid

I'm really trying to avoid table lookups.

Example: Mad Scientist theme

Hordes of Minions
Dr Bad, Mr Not so Nice, Golddude

Doomsday Machine
Dr Bad, Golddude, Col. Anti-Social

ok, at this point, you know it is either Golddude or Dr Bad. When you draw...

Secretive Lair
Golddude, Col. Anti Social, Wackyman

Then you have a definite match. The problem is the math, so that you get multiple matches on two cards, but unique on 3. And still have a decent set of choices.

Make sense?

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Sat, 05/09/2009 - 17:07
#3
End of Time Games
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Torrent wrote:Then you have a

Torrent wrote:
Then you have a definite match. The problem is the math, so that you get multiple matches on two cards, but unique on 3. And still have a decent set of choices.

I could get into the groove of what you're saying better if you were clearer on your description of what's going on.
Off the top of my head, you might find useful looking at mathematical sequences. Namely, number pracelets...sequences...that when you stack three rows of sequence, you get triple sums. You may find what your looking for in this subject.

What's running through my mind is putting the info on your cards in a way that negates chart referance...have pairs match up by somehow completeing a sum in a way that is common and you can easily make lots of pairs like you say. But, few numbers or unique factors added to those pairs creat a rare trio of cards.

And symbols can be numbers. Make your own language if you need to. Be creative.

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Sat, 05/09/2009 - 17:08
#4
End of Time Games
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I messed up. I put my

removed double post -seo

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Sat, 05/09/2009 - 19:31
#5
JB
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I actually happen to have the

I actually happen to have the exact solution. My game uses a fairly complex combat chart, but it's invisible to the players. The players line up the attack and defense card using horizontal lines. An arrow on the attack card points to a result symbol on the the defense card. (And the possible result symbols are defined on the attack card so you don't have to refer to the rules.) It really smooths the game play. Although it depends on the size of the table you are dealing with. My combat is a 5x5, the max to put on a card reasonably would be like 7x7.

For your purposes you would want the cards to be interchangable, which is totally doable.

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Sun, 05/10/2009 - 04:33
#6
coco
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makes sense, but...

Torrent wrote:
I'm really trying to avoid table lookups.

Example: Mad Scientist theme

Hordes of Minions
Dr Bad, Mr Not so Nice, Golddude

Doomsday Machine
Dr Bad, Golddude, Col. Anti-Social

ok, at this point, you know it is either Golddude or Dr Bad. When you draw...

Secretive Lair
Golddude, Col. Anti Social, Wackyman

Then you have a definite match. The problem is the math, so that you get multiple matches on two cards, but unique on 3. And still have a decent set of choices.

Make sense?

This makes sense, but the number of cards on the selection deck will be only 4.

Explanation:

If you want the first 2 cards to have 2 characters in common out of 3, you need the following deck (A,B,C,D characters)

ABC
ABD
ACD
BCD

... and drawing a 3rd card you'll get only 1 character in common.

With a larger deck it won't work. (5 characters. 3 per card)

ABC
ABD
ABE
ACD
ACE
ADE
BCD
BCE
BDE
CDE

Notice that cards 1 and 10 have only character in common.

So you'll need more characters per card:

Suppose 4 characters per card and 5 characters in total. This leads to a 5 card deck:

ABCD
ABCE
ABDE
ACDE
BCDE

According to this, you must draw 4 cards to have only 1 character in common.

I must think about this a bit more, but empiricaly:

Number of characters in total: N
Characters per card: X
Total cards: C

Then X=N-1
and C=N

So the number of cards equals the number of characters, and you must draw all but 1.

This means there is only 1 card left, so probably it doesn't work for a deduction game. Maybe you should look for a different approach.

Hope this helps. Still thinking...

Néstor

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Sun, 05/10/2009 - 12:10
#7
Torrent
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Hey Nestor. That is very

Hey Nestor.

That is very helpful. I was curious about the math. So if I have 4 'villians' to choose from, then a 4 card deck with 3 cards drawn to choose among these 4 is possible.

That may be enough. I wasn't really expecting to use it as deduction. The point would be more of a roleplaying style thing (Descent, Arkam Horror, Buffy), where there is a villain to defeat. Normally these games make you pick the badguy before. I thought it would be neat to have a system to slowly reveal who/what it was you were fighting. So it was more of a story-arc style thing than a deduction mechanism.

Thanks for the math though, that is quite helpful.

still thinking too.

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Sun, 05/10/2009 - 12:16
#8
Torrent
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additional thought based on

additional thought based on the tightness of the math..

I wonder if the various characters were on more cards than needed to pick them.

ABC (extra minions)
ABD (better defended lair)
ABE (more money)
ACD ...
ACE
ADE
BCD
BCE
BDE
CDE

So each guy is on 5 cards of 9, but you only need 3 matching to fix the choice. Which means if each cards had powers( see above), each villain could actually be different depending on the set of 3 you saw. The 'figuring out' arc of the game would just extend until 3 of the same character showed up. So you get the idea of False Leads almost. Really thinking of the story arc here.

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Sun, 05/10/2009 - 14:25
#9
coco
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Hmmm

Torrent wrote:
additional thought based on the tightness of the math..

I wonder if the various characters were on more cards than needed to pick them.

ABC (extra minions)
ABD (better defended lair)
ABE (more money)
ACD ...
ACE
ADE
BCD
BCE
BDE
CDE

So each guy is on 5 cards of 9, but you only need 3 matching to fix the choice. Which means if each cards had powers( see above), each villain could actually be different depending on the set of 3 you saw. The 'figuring out' arc of the game would just extend until 3 of the same character showed up. So you get the idea of False Leads almost. Really thinking of the story arc here.

Hmmm, but if you draw ABC, ADE, CDE you've got no villain in common. Right?

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Sun, 05/10/2009 - 15:31
#10
Torrent
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Yeah, I guess at that point

Yeah, I guess at that point you draw another one. So the framework game I have in my head works a bit like this..

Draw an initial Card, apply its bonus to the game. Play through a number of Portals, Plots, Attacks.. maybe another deck runs out. Draw another Villain Card, so additional powers come into play.
Continue this cycle until the Villain is defined. So 4 or so is normal I expect.
Once the villain is picked, his card is picked out, put into play. So then the game changes a bit to stopping his plan, whatever that means.

Or maybe you add a human element. Descent style opposing force. Instead of just picking a villain, the opposing player picks 3 bonuses that define that villain, these just come into play slowly, so the players don't know exactly what is up from the beginning.

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