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Randomized Damage Reduction (DR)

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devaloki
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Hi all,
This is building upon my previous post:
http://www.bgdf.com/node/14670
I've decided for combat to keep a mechanic that involves armour providing a random amount of damage reduction from things that hit.
Someone on the other thread mentioned that, if I use 2d6 as a base for the amount of damage weapons do, that if I have armour providing 1d6 DR it might be TOO random due to the curve of 1d6 vs 2d6.
I have been testing it and I don't think it's that drastic honestly. The other idea I was thinking of using was damage tables you roll on with 2d6. Yet another idea I thought of was to roll 2d6 and then divide it in half rounded up for the armour roll.
The point is is that armour should protect some but only rarely protect from all damage that hits you and that it should also be a variable amount of protection each time you are hit rather than fixed values (which is how most DR systems do it). That way heavy armour isn't a sure fire thing.
Is there another way to handle this that I'm not considering/that I'm missing? Perhaps the DR should be % based and function as a "saving throw" instead?
There will be individual cards for armour that explains its stats, rather than there simply being only simply armour types you get.
Also, does anyone have any ideas on how I could handle elemental weaknesses/resistances using a system like that?
To recap how it'd work:

-Attacker rolls to hit. Certain dice #s count as "surges" which boost your damage/effects if you hit. To hit # is based upon a comparison against their agility. This number only occurs if they specifically dodge otherwise you're simply rolling to see if you surge.
- If hit, attacker rolls for damage
- Defender rolls for armor
- Subtract DR from damage (or if a % system reduce it that way) to get total damage that defender loses.

Any ideas or tips or references would be appreciated...

EthosGames
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Countering Rather then Reducing

What if DR is calculated by the armor roll countering, rather then reducing, the attack roll? Let me explain: The Armor roll would be 1, 2, 3, 4, or even 5 d6 dice depending on the strength of the armor. The attack roll would be 2d6. The Defender successfully defends agains the attacker if the outcomes are equal For example: Attack Roll: 2,6 Armor Roll: 3,4,6 would result in the Attackers 6 being blocked but the 2 dealing 2 points of damage. Any Magical or Elemental effects would be simply added on top of these calculations.

More in depth Example:

Defender has "Heavy Armor of luminosity": with a Light elemental bonus that defends agains all Darkness elemental attacks.

Attacker attacks with "The Great Sword of Magical Darkness" causing 3 extra Magical damage and 3 Darkness damage.

Attacker rolls: 6, 2, 4, 2

Defender rolls: 4, 3

The 4 is blocked, the three passes through the armor, the Darkness damage of 3 is blocked, the Magical damage of 3 goes through the armor. Total damage is 6.

Here is a table of the probabilities based on the level of armor:

Outcomes: d6 2d6 3d6 4d6 5d6
% Defend Against 2 0 5 14 24 34
% Defend Against 1 30 46 50 50 47
% Defend Against 0 69 49 36 26 19
Average Damage 6 5 4 3.5 3

The 2d6, 3d6, and 4d6 would make good percentages for Light Medium and Heavy Armor while just one d6 could even be used for a no armor category. These percentages would provide that occasional 0 damage while defending against at least one attack dice about half the time. Granted, from half to one forth of the time it will not defend at all.

Just a thought.

RyanRay
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Have you considered using

Have you considered using 1d6+# mechanics? For example, if you want to defend against 2d6, have the defender use 1d6+2 or 2d4. It'll ensure that you don't get totally demolished by a 1 defending a 12, depending on how you want it balanced.

schattentanz
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Different damage types

So, basically you do not want heavy armour to be a "sure fire thing".
Ok.
First an Explanation:
Other game systems go for variable damage and constant DR, because damage relies on variables such as power of a blow, where the blow strikes, etc.
Armour, however, is constantly strong or weak (depending on the kind of armour).
I would opt for constant DR for armour, too - as it makes more sense, reduces the need for dice rolls thus increasing the speed of Play and is far easier to balance.
Instead I would go for different kinds of damage.

Example:
Your Basic weapon deals 2D6 of damage, damage can be reduced to up to 6 Points (by heavy armour).
Additionally there are options for adding extra damage (such as shadow damage, delivering at least a certain minimum of damage or elemental damage, adding 1 or 2 Points to the result, or holy damage, reducing the DR of the opponent until next turn - and so on)

Kind regards,
Kai

devaloki
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EthosGames wrote:What if DR

EthosGames wrote:
What if DR is calculated by the armor roll **countering**, rather then reducing, the attack roll? Let me explain: The Armor roll would be 1, 2, 3, 4, or even 5 d6 dice depending on the strength of the armor. The attack roll would be 2d6. The Defender successfully defends agains the attacker if the outcomes are equal For example: Attack Roll: 2,6 Armor Roll: 3,4,6 would result in the Attackers 6 being blocked but the 2 dealing 2 points of damage. Any Magical or Elemental effects would be simply added on top of these calculations.

**More in depth Example:**

Defender has "Heavy Armor of luminosity": with a Light elemental bonus that defends agains all Darkness elemental attacks.

Attacker attacks with "The Great Sword of Magical Darkness" causing 3 extra Magical damage and 3 Darkness damage.

Attacker rolls: 6, 2, 4, 2

Defender rolls: 4, 3

The 4 is blocked, the three passes through the armor, the Darkness damage of 3 is blocked, the Magical damage of 3 goes through the armor. Total damage is 6.

Here is a table of the probabilities based on the level of armor:

| Outcomes: | d6 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 4d6 | 5d6 |
|--------------------|----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
| % Defend Against 2 | 0 | 5 | 14 | 24 | 34 |
| % Defend Against 1 | 30 | 46 | 50 | 50 | 47 |
| % Defend Against 0 | 69 | 49 | 36 | 26 | 19 |
| Average Damage | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3.5 | 3 |

The 2d6, 3d6, and 4d6 would make good percentages for Light Medium and Heavy Armor while just one d6 could even be used for a no armor category. These percentages would provide that occasional 0 damage while defending against at least one attack dice about half the time. Granted, from half to one forth of the time it will not defend at all.

Just a thought.

"The 4 is blocked, the three passes through the armor, the Darkness damage of 3 is blocked, the Magical damage of 3 goes through the armor. Total damage is 6."

Wait, what? I don't understand how your example works at all.

How does the 3 extra damage works for magic and dark ? so the 3 damage ones are ones in addition to what comes up on the dice? and armour only counters EXACT dice rolls then? If that's the case then why is the total damage only 6 in your example? Wouldn't the total damage be 10?

devaloki
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RyanRay wrote:Have you

RyanRay wrote:
Have you considered using 1d6+# mechanics? For example, if you want to defend against 2d6, have the defender use 1d6+2 or 2d4. It'll ensure that you don't get totally demolished by a 1 defending a 12, depending on how you want it balanced.

Indeed, that's what I've been testing. Thing is though, I only want to use d6s for the game so I'm working on variations of it. For example, Plate mail could provide d6+2 DR, whereas padded light cloth armour could be like d5 (d6-1 or instead reroll it if 6 comes up).
Another alternative I was considering was to have damage charts printed on each weapon card.
so you roll a d6 or 2d6 and consult the chart after the roll to see what value it provided
"It'll ensure that you don't get totally demolished by a 1 defending a 12, depending on how you want it balanced."
Yeah I agree about that and that's something I want to avoid. For lighter armour though you can sometimes get demolished though.

What I am trying to avoid by using a variable DR system is so that there isn't an issue where some light weapons like daggers have no chance at no, or very little, chance of doing damage through heavy armour. Or where heavy weapons or higher leveled characters completely demolish light armour wearers.

devaloki
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schattentanz wrote:So,

schattentanz wrote:
So, basically you do not want heavy armour to be a "sure fire thing".
Ok.
First an Explanation:
Other game systems go for variable damage and constant DR, because damage relies on variables such as power of a blow, where the blow strikes, etc.
Armour, however, is constantly strong or weak (depending on the kind of armour).
I would opt for constant DR for armour, too - as it makes more sense, reduces the need for dice rolls thus increasing the speed of Play and is far easier to balance.
Instead I would go for different kinds of damage.

Example:
Your Basic weapon deals 2D6 of damage, damage can be reduced to up to 6 Points (by heavy armour).
Additionally there are options for adding extra damage (such as shadow damage, delivering at least a certain minimum of damage or elemental damage, adding 1 or 2 Points to the result, or holy damage, reducing the DR of the opponent until next turn - and so on)

Kind regards,
Kai

I've played some gamebooks with fixed DR values and what tends to happen is that heavy armour is so powerful you can't hurt someone with it with a dagger without things like rare critical hits so you end up having to use heavy weapons. Fixed DR has the benefit of minimizing dice rolls certainly but I feel that it oftentimes makes for situations that are either hopeless to win or too easy to win.

I do like your idea about how to implement elemental attacks though

RyanRay
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Your best bet may be

Your best bet may be specially-made dice. A light armor d6 could have the faces 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, while a heavy armor d6 might have the faces 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6.

I like to use these dice and some key labels from office stores for prototyping new stuff:

http://www.amazon.com/50-Blank-White-Dice-16MM/dp/B00BAKWKP2/ref=sr_1_4?...

Eventually you'd have dice that only have 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, faces, enemies that attack with weaker rolls may have two dice that include a [1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4] and a [1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4] while the strong enemies later on could roll 2d6 of [3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6] and [3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5].

Think of the dice they use in Formula D, but in d6 form instead of all the d12 and d20s they use.

EthosGames
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Quote:Wait, what? I don't

Quote:
Wait, what? I don't understand how your example works at all.

How does the 3 extra damage works for magic and dark ? so the 3 damage ones are ones in addition to what comes up on the dice? and armor only counters EXACT dice rolls then? If that's the case then why is the total damage only 6 in your example? Wouldn't the total damage be 10?

three things...

one, I accidentally switched the attacker and defender's rolls in my example. Sorry :-[

two, this was totally me just brainstorming an idea but I have since been thinking along the lines of what RaynRay is suggesting with the custom dice.

three, below is an explanation of my thinking if you are still interested in understanding the original idea:

Looking over your original post "Damage tables or just d6 variations? for dark fantasy game..." I see where more of the confusion is coming from.

You are actually just using the 2d6 rolls to correlate to physical, magical or elemental attack on a table.

Quote:
Fire Sword Roll # : 1-3 : 4-6 : 7-9 : 10-12 Damage Phys: 2 : 3 : 3 : 3 Damage Mag : 0 Damage Elem: 1 : 2 : 2 : 4

I missed this and so wrongly assumed that the attack roll was the physical attack with any magical or elemental bonuses added to that. In my example the rolls were the physical attack countered by the armor rolls. The magical and elemental attack points were a fixed # that would be negated if that armor had an inherent defense against that type.

To clear up how I calculated things...

Attacker rolls: 4, 3

Defender rolls: 6, 2, 4, 2

The 4 physical is blocked by the armor while the 3 physical passes through the armor. The Darkness damage of 3 is blocked because the armor defends against darkness. The Magical damage of 3 goes through the armor. Outcome: Physical damage 3, Magical damage 3, total is 6.

Hopefully things are less confusing now. Like I said, I was just kicking around an idea.

devaloki
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RyanRay, The custom dice

RyanRay,
The custom dice thing is a great idea, I like it a lot.
I like it too because if you were to lose the custom dice, you could still play the game by referencing tables if needed to know what the values are.
The values could range from 1 minimum to 6 maximum then just like regular 1-6 d6s.
And I do like the idea of scaling up the damage ranges as the players and enemies get stronger.
Just like in my original idea on this thread though, if I use your idea I'd still have it so that , generally speaking, weapons (even small ones like daggers) would have a base damage that is higher even then heavy armours.

devaloki
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EthosGames wrote:Quote:Wait,

EthosGames wrote:
Quote:
Wait, what? I don't understand how your example works at all.

How does the 3 extra damage works for magic and dark ? so the 3 damage ones are ones in addition to what comes up on the dice? and armor only counters EXACT dice rolls then? If that's the case then why is the total damage only 6 in your example? Wouldn't the total damage be 10?

three things...

one, I accidentally switched the attacker and defender's rolls in my example. Sorry :-[

two, this was totally me just brainstorming an idea but I have since been thinking along the lines of what RaynRay is suggesting with the custom dice.

three, below is an explanation of my thinking if you are still interested in understanding the original idea:

Looking over your original post "Damage tables or just d6 variations? for dark fantasy game..." I see where more of the confusion is coming from.

You are actually just using the 2d6 rolls to correlate to physical, magical or elemental attack on a table.

Quote:
Fire Sword
Roll # : 1-3 : 4-6 : 7-9 : 10-12
Damage Phys: 2 : 3 : 3 : 3
Damage Mag : 0
Damage Elem: 1 : 2 : 2 : 4

I missed this and so wrongly assumed that the attack roll was the physical attack with any magical or elemental bonuses added to that. In my example the rolls were the physical attack countered by the armor rolls. The magical and elemental attack points were a fixed # that would be negated if that armor had an inherent defense against that type.

To clear up how I calculated things...

Attacker rolls: 4, 3

Defender rolls: 6, 2, 4, 2

The 4 physical is blocked by the armor while the 3 physical passes through the armor. The Darkness damage of 3 is blocked because the armor defends against darkness. The Magical damage of 3 goes through the armor. Outcome: Physical damage 3, Magical damage 3, total is 6.

Hopefully things are less confusing now. Like I said, I was just kicking around an idea.

Ah, I understand how it works now. It reminds me of this game called "Dungeon Run" with their combat system sort of.
You did post a probabilities chart, I'll have to look over that again.
I'm thinking too, elemental resistance with armour could work interesting in that system; one could have it, for example, that say an armour with dark reistance could get +2 dice to roll when rolling for the armour.

devaloki
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RyanRay wrote:Your best bet

RyanRay wrote:
Your best bet may be specially-made dice. A light armor d6 could have the faces 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, while a heavy armor d6 might have the faces 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6.

I like to use these dice and some key labels from office stores for prototyping new stuff:

http://www.amazon.com/50-Blank-White-Dice-16MM/dp/B00BAKWKP2/ref=sr_1_4?...

Eventually you'd have dice that only have 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, faces, enemies that attack with weaker rolls may have two dice that include a [1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4] and a [1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4] while the strong enemies later on could roll 2d6 of [3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6] and [3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5].

Think of the dice they use in Formula D, but in d6 form instead of all the d12 and d20s they use.


Also, I've never heard/played that game you mentioned, could you tell me how it worked in that one?

RyanRay
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Formula D is a racing game

Formula D is a racing game where you use modified dice to determine your car's speed depending on what gear you're in. For example, the Green die only shows numbers 7-12, and the red die only shows 4-8.

The game itself isn't my favorite, but the dice they use are a great idea.

Here's a review of the game. It doesn't show the dice a whole lot, but will give you the gist of how they work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSpyKrxT9aw

devaloki
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Cool, thanks for the link

Cool, thanks for the link I'll check it out.
I was also thinking, perhaps an easier way to have variation using d6s would be simply to have each piece of gear in the game have 3 different results it could provide.
If the armour roll is just on 1d6 for example, 1-2=worst possible 3-4=average 5-6=best.
So using that system, leather vs plate armour could read like:
DR provided:
Leather Armour 1/3/4
Plate Armour 3/5/6

devaloki
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Instead of variable damage

Instead of variable damage reduction, perhaps a better way to handle it would be to give armor certain values, you compare your armor penetration value on a weapon to it, and that gives you a target # to roll equal to or higher. If you fail you do no damage, if you meet it you do damage.
This would be similar to the rpg Dragon Warriors.
As said, I'm mainly just concerned/wondering about how to handle extremes such as dagger vs plate mail, and how to keep it so light armour and light weapons have their worth in the game too.
If I use a dragon warriors type of armor system , perhaps daggers could have higher armour penetration value. Also they could be more accurate.
Sorry for my random thoughts on here, I like to discuss things and brainstorm with others on this site
Though looking at this site, it seems daggers were not effective against plate...
http://www.mercwars.com/weaponanalysis.shtml

FWyver
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Here's a pretty off the wall

Here's a pretty off the wall idea that gets rid of the need for an armour roll, but still maintains gradations of armour effectiveness (this is not a million miles away from Ethos's original reply above)

Players have armour that is rated between 1 to 6, so light armour might be 1-2, medium 3-4 and heavy 5-6. When rolling for damage, armour ignores dice results that equal its rating. So Light armour ignores all 1s and 2s, heavy armour ignores all 5s and 6s. This redistributes the average results of 2d6 as follows:
No armour, average on 2d6=7, min 2, max 12.
Light armour, average on 2d6=6.166, min 0, max 12.
Medium armour, average on 2d6=4.66, min 0, max 12.
Heavy armour, average on 2d6=3.33, min 0, max 8.

You can tweak the numbers as necessary, but I'm generally a fan of mechanics that reduce the number of dice rolls in a game.

With this system there is no guarantee that your armour will be effective on any particular individual roll, but it does shift the possibilities what damage you're likely to take, and if you're lucky you could possibly walk away unscathed.

It gives you some interesting probability distributions: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/55893635/Fixed%20armour%20rating%20p...

Just a thought anyway.

devaloki
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So with the system you are

So with the system you are describing, just to clarify, do you roll 2d6 for your damage total and then apply the armor against the roll?
So say I roll 2d6 for damage total against heavy armour and I roll a 3 and a 6. The heavy would cancel the 6 and the 3 would get through , thus giving the person 3 total damage?
Also , I was thinking about how to make light weapons useful, I could have it so that accuracy depends upon a weapon stat and not the statistics of the character (though a high Combat stat could give a bonus to accuracy). So daggers would be easier to hit fast enemies with but you'll want a heavier weapon for tougher armoured foes (though criticals/surges with daggers could ignore armour). You'd have to switch out your gear depending upon the type of enemies you're likely to encounter in an area.
Concerning the to hit system, it'd be based upon a comparison of your weapon's accuracy vs opponent's agility stat. The comparison results in a target number you must roll equal to or higher. Crits/surges occur depending upon if you roll a high number on individual dice during the to hit roll, 6s for average weapons, 5s for weapons like daggers etc.
Your Combat stat could give either a +x bonus to your to hit roll or alternatively could provide x amount of bonus dice, bonus dice are extra dice you roll when rolling the to hit roll and you can replace your rolled dice with the rolled bonus dice.
Generally speaking though , is +x to total result more or is it less powerful than +x bonus dice? That's what I'm wondering too...

RyanRay
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I'm doing something similar

I'm doing something similar to that with a game in the works. The character's Defense stat completely negates any damage at or below that level, instead of the usual damage reduction. There's only one roll involved (monster attack).

In other words:
USUAL WAY - Hero has Defense of 4, monster attacks with 7, Hero takes 3 damage.

MY WAY - Hero has defense of 4, monster attacks with 7, Hero takes 7 damage.

FWyver
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"So with the system you are

"So with the system you are describing, just to clarify, do you roll 2d6 for your damage total and then apply the armor against the roll?
So say I roll 2d6 for damage total against heavy armour and I roll a 3 and a 6. The heavy would cancel the 6 and the 3 would get through , thus giving the person 3 total damage?"

Yep, you've got it. You can add in more dice if you want, I haven't worked out the math, but it should maintain the same sort of proportions across the different armour ratings, just up the values across the board. I think it's interesting to compare the different armours with the same averages, 4-5 and 2-4 both average 4 damage, however 2-4 gives a 25% chance of a zero compared to 4-5 giving 11% chance of zero.

"Generally speaking though , is +x to total result more or is it less powerful than +x bonus dice? That's what I'm wondering too..."

It depends really, each extra dice is effectively the same as adding 3.5 on average over an infinite number of rolls... however, for any specific roll you have the full range of possibilities. It depends what you mean by powerful, and what value x takes. If x is 9, I'll take it over an extra dice any day, but if it's 4, then I'd be less sure..

Another thing to consider is whether you're going for a simple, "Get equal or higher than this number" mechanic, or whether you have a specific target number that will cause a critical hit, or whether it's a mix.

If for example, you have to score at least 9 to hit, but if you get exactly 9 you cause a crit, then:

With D6+x (if x is between 3 and 8) you have a one in six chance of a crit (0.166)

With 2D6 you have a four in thirty six chance of a crit (0.111)

So the probabilities of any given number are much more evenly distributed with just a d6+x mechanic. It's largely up to you to decide whether that's what you want..

devaloki
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"It depends really, each

"It depends really, each extra dice is effectively the same as adding 3.5 on average over an infinite number of rolls... however, for any specific roll you have the full range of possibilities. It depends what you mean by powerful, and what value x takes. If x is 9, I'll take it over an extra dice any day, but if it's 4, then I'd be less sure.."

Well, I mean like say you had to roll equal to or higher than 8 on 2d6. and you could either get +1 (or +2, +2 would be most possible for game) or 1 extra bonus dice instead, would you say the +1/+2 is stronger or weaker than the bonus dice?

"Another thing to consider is whether you're going for a simple, "Get equal or higher than this number" mechanic, or whether you have a specific target number that will cause a critical hit, or whether it's a mix."

With crits, I am thinking of calling them "surges" and have it work like this:
You have a target number you have to hit on 2d6, if you hit then , for each INDIVIDUAL 6 (or 5 in the case of certain weapons) , then the weapon surges and has some additional effect .

Also when doing the to-hit roll you only have to hit a target number if the opponent specifically dodges, if they don't then you hit automatically and are rolling just to check for surges

FWyver
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In your example, rolling 8 on

In your example, rolling 8 on 2d6 with either a +1/+2 or +d6 bonus I would take the +d6 bonus every time.

Probability of at least 8 on:
2d6+1 = 0.583
2d6+2 = 0.722
3d6 = 0.838 <-definitely more powerful

I'd recommend taking a look at this website as it makes these sorts of calculations fantastically easy: http://anydice.com/

When it comes to surges, with the 2d6+x method you never change the probability of a surge (it's always 0.333), but if you add in bonus dice you will increase the probability of a surge (+0.166 for each extra d6), so that's a choice you'll have to make - whether you want bonuses to affect surges or whether you want them to remain independent of them.

devaloki
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Ok cool, thanks for the

Ok cool, thanks for the insight and tips. The site is very useful too!

Zag24
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Overthinking it

I think you might be overthinking where your randomness comes from. To say that the attack is 2d6, and the armor protects for 1d6, is actually the same as saying the attack is 3d6-7. That is: [2d6-1d6] == [3d6-7] http://anydice.com/program/3f89

Also, well made armor actually is pretty consistent. That's why the medieval nobility considered war to be such great sport, because mostly the crude weapons of the peasants couldn't actually hurt them through their plate mail. So they got to ride around on their armored horses and play whack-a-mole with human lives, at very little risk to themselves. (It's pretty sick, really.)

devaloki
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Zag24 wrote:I think you might

Zag24 wrote:
I think you might be overthinking where your randomness comes from. To say that the attack is 2d6, and the armor protects for 1d6, is actually the same as saying the attack is 3d6-7. That is: [2d6-1d6] == [3d6-7] http://anydice.com/program/3f89

Also, well made armor actually is pretty consistent. That's why the medieval nobility considered war to be such great sport, because mostly the crude weapons of the peasants couldn't actually hurt them through their plate mail. So they got to ride around on their armored horses and play whack-a-mole with human lives, at very little risk to themselves. (It's pretty sick, really.)

Good points and thanks for the clarity on things.
And yes, you are definitely right about that stuff in the past being despicable...
If I use random damage reduction I'd make the range more narrow. Either way by using different dice or by charts.
Either that, or have a Dragon Warriors type of armor system...
idk, i guess i have to just test them all out

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