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Something that feels like a traitor mechanic when there is no traitor

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Thu, 02/24/2022 - 14:50
MarkD1733
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I am making a game with a thematic traitor/saboteur element. However I don’t want this to be a cooperative game with a traitor in their midst. I want the game to be competitive 2-player game at this point. Because it’s competitive, how can a “traitor” or “saboteur” be implemented. Is there a way to give a the spirit of a traitor or saboteur when there is no such player role. I am familiar with many other games with traitor mechanics, but nothing of this type has come to mind. I would appreciate any ideas or any games that you think feature such a mechanic.

Thanks!

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Thu, 02/24/2022 - 15:24
#1
let-off studios
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Competitive = Take That?

Are you thinking of something as un-subtle as creative twists on otherwise typical, "take-that" mechanics?

Are you thinking of possibly one player forcing a difficult choice on the other, where it's a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" kind of vibe?

Are you thinking of something like sports teams that pull dirty tricks on one another: sabotaging equipment, or hiring someone to injure the opposing team's star player?

I'm not totally clear how you mean to have a competitive game with traitor mechanics involved, since the two players are already in conflict.

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Thu, 02/24/2022 - 17:12
#2
MarkD1733
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Competitive but not directly engaged

Basically, it’s a race between teams, each team controlled by one player. Each side is racing to locate something. However, one side may have a traitor/saboteur in the team. Don’t worry about the asymmetry of this situation. I am just trying to figure out how to evoke the sense that a team has a saboteur in their midst or not. If this was cooperative, then this is easier…and I may still opt to try this game cooperatively. I am entertaining the 2-player concept first.

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Thu, 02/24/2022 - 17:27
#3
terzamossa
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I think one of the Dune board

I think one of the Dune board games (not sure if the newest or the old one), which is fully competitive, has a traitor mechanic:
During combat each player chooses a number of units to engage and a commander to guide them (which gives a boost) and if the other player has that specific commander as a traitor card, they can make them swap side on the spot.
Not sure if this helps!

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Fri, 02/25/2022 - 07:37
#4
Juzek
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I would recommend adding

I would recommend adding patrons like in Splendor, where if you scratch their back and full something a little bit extra, they are supposed to help you out, but there is a chance the reward they give you is bad, so it's a gamble to go with them. Of course include some things that wind up being a benefit, just spin it like everything is bad.

Or you could retroactively decide a player has a traitor in their crew. Like, if they get two un-lucky dice rolls in a row, they can re-do some of the team members, claiming that they are winnowing out the evil giving them bad rolls, and this could become a balancing mechanic that should help the player behind

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Fri, 02/25/2022 - 11:24
#5
MarkD1733
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Evoking the feel of a traitor/saboteur

I like the idea of different crew members with one being a detriment. I am envisioning this as role cards but have them face toward your opponent. Would you see any problem if the traitor was randomly assigned and the opposing player know that the other player has a traitor/saboteur? Maybe uncovering the saboteur is an alternate win condition? They must deduce that things are going badly, and then uncover the culprit?

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Thu, 03/03/2022 - 13:48
#6
let-off studios
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Labor Pool Metaphor

I wonder if it would be possible for you to experiment with something like this...

Each player can hire from the same pool of workers for their team. As the game goes on, the workers require maintenance payments (like a paycheck), or else they're returned to the labor pool. Additionally, players can add to the maintenance cost of certain workers as one of their actions, like adding a +1 or +2 token to that worker's card. When the next pay cycle comes around, if the employer can't afford to pay the worker's fee (including any added costs from the opponent), then the worker is released. They can be hired again on a later turn, or perhaps the opponent has an opportunity to "poach" that worker first.

This streamlines the sabotage aspect of the game, and doesn't pinpoint a specific worker, or something technical like a specific system or piece of equipment. The emphasis is now on fostering skills within the team based on its members. And the penalty of "sabotaging" is abstracted to being just about affecting the costs of worker retention.

Some workers can end up being more valuable than others based on their inherent skills or whatever. So players may be willing to address these increased costs so they can capitalize on that specific worker as part of their team. It's obviously an opportunity cost to pay up, but doesn't make it impossible to attempt a variety of tactics after "letting someone go."

One potential side-effect of this is that more attention may be paid to the maintenance of workers than you might want in your game. Playtesting will bear this out, I imagine.

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Thu, 03/03/2022 - 23:47
#7
questccg
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This is a bit "strange" but when you think about, Hmm???

Have you ever thought of having a "Card" like in "Old Maid"... Whomever has the "Old Maid" card wants the opponent to take it away as that is the LOSING condition of the game.

Couldn't you have like a phase of your turn, Draw one (1) Card from the Player to the LEFT of you. In a Two-Player game, it means always the opponent. But expanded for a 3 or 4 or more Player game ... It becomes much more interesting.

But basically my logic goes as follows:

1> The Player with the SABOTEUR card can perform covert-actions against his opponent(s).

2> If a Player does covert-actions and is caught WITHOUT the SABOTEUR card, "insert some kind of penalty here"...

3> If the opposite happens the Saboteur does some covert-actions and the opponent challenges the player, "insert another kind of penalty here"...

This requires having a HAND and RANDOMLY drawing "X" from the opponent's hand and then refresh their hand at the very end of the turn to "Y" cards.

I know this sounds a bit weird TBH. But it may have some merit in that there is a SABOTEUR and it supports up to "Z"-Players. Plus it is compatible with 2-Player games which means that IF you don't have the SABOTEUR card, your opponent does...

I know it's NOT as good as in a Multi-Player game (3+ Players) because there is an element of unknown in games with HIGHER Player counts.

Just figured I share this "idea" since it seems to check all the boxes in terms of what you may be looking for... And it is rather NOVEL in terms of "concept"!

Cheers.

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Fri, 03/04/2022 - 00:06
#8
X3M
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An event card

I had an event card that would force units of a squad to switch sides. It is just a random draw. But the owner of the card decides who betrays who.
Maybe you can use that.

Depending on the card design and the game as a whole. It was possible for me to give my units to the other player. So that he wasn't allowed anymore to produce them by himself due to the unit limits of the game. And the squad was several rounds away from the point of conflict :)

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Fri, 03/04/2022 - 11:09
#9
Fri
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A couple of ideas

Could you introduce objective for each crew member? Most of these objectives would be something that would always help your cause. Like find a race car or defeat a monster. However, some would be sabatour would do. For example sell equipment or blow some thing up. Of course you would have to incentivize the player to actually complete the sabotage objective , which maybe a little tricky. Maybe once you take the hit, this crew member is repentant and uses thier skill against your opponents. Like selling opponents equipment on the black market or blowing opponents stuff up.

One way this could be implemented by just randomly assigning an objective card to each crewmember.

Could you introduce something like the crossroads mechanism from dead of winter? In this game the non-active player reads an event card to the active player which trigger things to happen on the board. The active player takes thier turn. On the event card, after the main event there is a statement something like if A and B happen then inform the active player that C also happens. The non active player monitors the active play an informs them if they trigger the crossroad. In this example C would be the act of sabotage, atleast for some of the events.

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Wed, 03/09/2022 - 05:32
#10
MarkD1733
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Thanks for all the ideas

Sorry I didn’t reply sooner. I am still working this problem, but wanted to thank everyone for the great ideas. Here is some additional information and current constraints for what I am thinking:

Currently seeing this as a two-player or two team (4-player) game.

-The player with the saboteur must deduce they have a saboteur and then work to reveal this role.
-It may be okay if the opposing player knows who the saboteur is, asymmetric as that may be.
-Bad things can happen to either player, so sabotage isn’t immediately obvious
-Envisioning a push-your-luck (PYL) dice rolling, tile exploration (these are minimum mechanics to work with)

My initial thought is that each side has 8 explorers, a role card for each, and like in Hanabi, the role cards face the other player. There maybe a traitor, there may not be. My thought is that each opposing player must do something for which the rules dictate how the “sabotage” plays out. For example, if you see a saboteur, you always choose the “worse” option if one exists. If you don’t see a saboteur, then you choose the “better” option if one exists. What those options are…still working that out. My initial thoughts are some type of “automated” swap of either tile or dice.

Thanks again for the input, past and future!

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